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Dev Blog: Next set of Sov and Capital Movement Iterations

First post First post
Author
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#261 - 2015-09-14 11:18:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Querns wrote:
Sentamon wrote:


One gate camp defending hundreds of system from PvP is quite possibly the stupidest thing ever. Of course you like it cause you're a nullbear Goon.

Good thing gatecamps can be avoided with the use of bridges (covert or otherwise) and wormholes.


Good thing both aren't even a minor threat to you or CCP would have already removed them.

It is funny how members of Goons presume everyone has the same ease of movement they enjoy.

Just use a bridge (covert or otherwise) - In space that is red to you - Or where your likely to get stuck for hours due to fatigue.
And of course, don't forget, when you jump your little blops fleet in through the covert cyno - Goons and friends will respond with a 100+ man fleet to see you off.








It's only a GF if you out number them 5 to 1 .


The only person who comes at us solo is harry forever.

Wow, my response went straight over the top did it?
Couldn't respond with anything that might be in context?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Manny theMiner
Squatch Squad
#262 - 2015-09-14 12:19:37 UTC
I don't understand why you are implementing changes to TQ and then seeing what the effects will be. Isn't that why you have the test server? Quit experimenting with my game in real time, trying to make things up as you go, and use the test processes you have in place. Why do i think numbers are dropping? Well, us old guys don't like relearning a completely new set of rules every 6 weeks.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#263 - 2015-09-14 12:27:19 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Querns wrote:
Sentamon wrote:


One gate camp defending hundreds of system from PvP is quite possibly the stupidest thing ever. Of course you like it cause you're a nullbear Goon.

Good thing gatecamps can be avoided with the use of bridges (covert or otherwise) and wormholes.


Good thing both aren't even a minor threat to you or CCP would have already removed them.

It is funny how members of Goons presume everyone has the same ease of movement they enjoy.

Just use a bridge (covert or otherwise) - In space that is red to you - Or where your likely to get stuck for hours due to fatigue.
And of course, don't forget, when you jump your little blops fleet in through the covert cyno - Goons and friends will respond with a 100+ man fleet to see you off.

You've never used blops BS in hostile space? Back in the day, we used to do it all the time. It's pretty safe, even in a safespot, as long as you cloak up and keep an eye on local.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#264 - 2015-09-14 12:31:07 UTC
Manny theMiner wrote:
I don't understand why you are implementing changes to TQ and then seeing what the effects will be. Isn't that why you have the test server? Quit experimenting with my game in real time, trying to make things up as you go, and use the test processes you have in place. Why do i think numbers are dropping? Well, us old guys don't like relearning a completely new set of rules every 6 weeks.

The test server is really poor for testing things that affect emergent gameplay things like sovereignty. For example, testing Aegis Sov on Duality saw most groups fielding nigh-infinite numbers of highly impractical ships to contest sovereignty. It was good to work out the bugs, but didn't really inform anyone on the best way to engage in sov war.

The test server is more useful for testing the raw mechanical functionality of complicated features, e.g.: brain in a box.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#265 - 2015-09-14 13:03:34 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Reducing the fatigue from 30 days to 5 days seems crazy to me. Doesn't it bring back the power projection issue for groups with a lot of caps? Sure it's not instant power projection in the old sense but the groups with caps positioned all over the place will no long be penalized.

It should be 10 days max fatigue so that the weekend player suffers as much as the dedicated player.


The goal of fatigue was to stop us from 3rd partying our entire titan swarm on fight happening across the map. This goal is still being met.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#266 - 2015-09-14 13:09:14 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Wow, my response went straight over the top did it?
Couldn't respond with anything that might be in context?


Let me put it this way. Harry Forever has never had an issue with getting in and out of our space even when he flew a badly fitted destroyer. If he can get in and have fun then anyone with access to things such as blackout have no excuse for failing to get into our space.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2015-09-14 13:58:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Reducing the fatigue from 30 days to 5 days seems crazy to me. Doesn't it bring back the power projection issue for groups with a lot of caps? Sure it's not instant power projection in the old sense but the groups with caps positioned all over the place will no long be penalized.

It should be 10 days max fatigue so that the weekend player suffers as much as the dedicated player.


The goal of fatigue was to stop us from 3rd partying our entire titan swarm on fight happening across the map. This goal is still being met.


Can't you still cover a long distance by jumping multiple times? And if so wasn't the long fatigue there to penalize people for doing this? (I'm generally curious as I don't live in low sec)

I just don't see how making it trivial for alliances to more around the map is a good thing. Personally i think wars should be a long/drawn-out process where people have to commit for weeks/months, not just an additional activity you can do to find fights every weekend... Constantly missing move ops? join a group that is invested in their region!
Lavayar
Haidamaky
UA Fleets
#268 - 2015-09-14 14:05:38 UTC
Quote:
This is a simple change to allow corps to willingly drop their sov structures. This will be especially useful for alliances that are willingly dropping control of some space to allow another alliance to take it. It takes the form of a new right click option on sov structures that's only available to Directors in the owning corp, and it will work much like ship self destruct.

But, this is stupid!
Why I can't just scoop my structure back and carry it away?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#269 - 2015-09-14 14:14:24 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Reducing the fatigue from 30 days to 5 days seems crazy to me. Doesn't it bring back the power projection issue for groups with a lot of caps? Sure it's not instant power projection in the old sense but the groups with caps positioned all over the place will no long be penalized.

It should be 10 days max fatigue so that the weekend player suffers as much as the dedicated player.


The goal of fatigue was to stop us from 3rd partying our entire titan swarm on fight happening across the map. This goal is still being met.


Can't you still cover a long distance by jumping multiple times? And if so wasn't the long fatigue there to penalize people for doing this? (I'm generally curious as I don't live in low sec)

I just don't see how making it trivial for alliances to more around the map is a good thing. Personally i think wars should be a long/drawn-out process where people have to commit for weeks/months, not just an additional activity you can do to find fights every weekend... Constantly missing move ops? join a group that is invested in their region!

You can cover a maximum distance between 20-25LY before fatigue maximizes and you have to wait 12 hours between each jump.

This is about the distance from YA0 to TVN, for reference. You'd have to endure about four hours of jump fatigue cooldown to do this, get stuck with 12 hours of cooldown at the end, and be capped out for fatigue with 5 days.

Or, you could fit for gate travel and take the same trip in about 22 minutes, assuming you didn't get bubbled along the way.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#270 - 2015-09-14 14:28:05 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Reducing the fatigue from 30 days to 5 days seems crazy to me. Doesn't it bring back the power projection issue for groups with a lot of caps? Sure it's not instant power projection in the old sense but the groups with caps positioned all over the place will no long be penalized.

It should be 10 days max fatigue so that the weekend player suffers as much as the dedicated player.


The goal of fatigue was to stop us from 3rd partying our entire titan swarm on fight happening across the map. This goal is still being met.


Can't you still cover a long distance by jumping multiple times? And if so wasn't the long fatigue there to penalize people for doing this? (I'm generally curious as I don't live in low sec)

I just don't see how making it trivial for alliances to more around the map is a good thing. Personally i think wars should be a long/drawn-out process where people have to commit for weeks/months, not just an additional activity you can do to find fights every weekend... Constantly missing move ops? join a group that is invested in their region!


No we can't toss caps around like we used to with this change. It will still be faster to move capitals via gates.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#271 - 2015-09-14 14:41:00 UTC
My personal experience is that any ship cruiser size and above can relatively be caught in a gatecamp.
Yes, instalock camps exist, but they have quite high requirements.

Proof:
number of solo cruisers in FW <<< number of solo frigs/dessies

If the gameplay around sov involves keeping someone away from something, it can only be cruiser size+ or the defenders will be in serious trouble.
(and Strategic Cruisers are still problematic)

Interceptors banned from Entosis: good.
Think about all frigs, dessies and maybe T3 cruisers.

In favor of attackers:
Temporary disabling services should hurt the defenders enough so they will not ignore roaming gangs looking for a fight and it should be fairly easy.

But destroying or permanently damaging infrastructure should take WAY more commitment. Not necessarily in numbers (like old structure grind), but in time.
And by this I mean not hours playing but say number of successful attacks in a month.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#272 - 2015-09-14 17:46:05 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Was there ever consideration of a final 'coup de grace' phase to structures?

I.e. the entosis process essentially cripples the target e.t.c e.t.c but then there is a small amount of hit-points to chew through at the end to finish the job, perhaps broadly equivalent to a well tanked Battleship?


Why, if its not going to be significant what's the point ?

Significant enough to warrant putting some hardware on the field (and generating a killmail), not too significant to avoid Dominion era grind.


Hardware like a frigate manned by the guy that just started playing the day of the attack, because unrepped BS defense is not enough to make it interesting in anyway.

"Perhaps broadly equivalent to a well tanked Battleship?"

'broadly and "perhaps" being the operative words;

Arrowmore than a lone Frigate could be bothered to sit and chew through, orders of magnitude less than a full-on Dominion era structure.


War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#273 - 2015-09-14 19:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Saisin
Manny theMiner wrote:
I don't understand why you are implementing changes to TQ and then seeing what the effects will be. Isn't that why you have the test server? Quit experimenting with my game in real time, trying to make things up as you go, and use the test processes you have in place. Why do i think numbers are dropping? Well, us old guys don't like relearning a completely new set of rules every 6 weeks.


I do not believe the test server can effectively test new features on a broad scale. there are too many different parameters, and in particular assets have no value there. The test server is good for test fittings and mass test, like load testing and stuff like that only.

The iterative approach is the best way to introduce new feature and tweak them as data and play patterns are gathered over time, as long as the balances are done by small increment. Unfortunately, for this announcement, the changes are swinging way too far from where they are now...

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#274 - 2015-09-14 19:31:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Saisin
Lavayar wrote:
Quote:
This is a simple change to allow corps to willingly drop their sov structures. This will be especially useful for alliances that are willingly dropping control of some space to allow another alliance to take it. It takes the form of a new right click option on sov structures that's only available to Directors in the owning corp, and it will work much like ship self destruct.

But, this is stupid!
Why I can't just scoop my structure back and carry it away?

I would have prefered that too, but out of the four items in the changes, this is the one that is the most consensual.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#275 - 2015-09-14 23:05:34 UTC
Querns wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Querns wrote:
Sentamon wrote:


One gate camp defending hundreds of system from PvP is quite possibly the stupidest thing ever. Of course you like it cause you're a nullbear Goon.

Good thing gatecamps can be avoided with the use of bridges (covert or otherwise) and wormholes.


Good thing both aren't even a minor threat to you or CCP would have already removed them.

It is funny how members of Goons presume everyone has the same ease of movement they enjoy.

Just use a bridge (covert or otherwise) - In space that is red to you - Or where your likely to get stuck for hours due to fatigue.
And of course, don't forget, when you jump your little blops fleet in through the covert cyno - Goons and friends will respond with a 100+ man fleet to see you off.

You've never used blops BS in hostile space? Back in the day, we used to do it all the time. It's pretty safe, even in a safespot, as long as you cloak up and keep an eye on local.

Key words "back in the day", that was before fatigue stopped your fleet moving more than once every 28 mins (X 3 or 4 to get to the target system - forget it)
Yes Blops can be done pretty safely but who wants to spend a week moving a small fleet to a target area, only to find you can't do what you came for because the locals saw you coming 3 days ago and are waiting for you or just stay docked.



My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#276 - 2015-09-14 23:34:43 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Key words "back in the day", that was before fatigue stopped your fleet moving more than once every 28 mins (X 3 or 4 to get to the target system - forget it)
Yes Blops can be done pretty safely but who wants to spend a week moving a small fleet to a target area, only to find you can't do what you came for because the locals saw you coming 3 days ago and are waiting for you or just stay docked.

Fatigue didn't somehow make it less safe. It's still a perfectly valid way to conduct business. Hell, most of the scant bits of PVP that do slip through our net in Deklein consist of ratters getting dropped on by bombers.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#277 - 2015-09-15 07:57:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Querns wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Reducing the fatigue from 30 days to 5 days seems crazy to me. Doesn't it bring back the power projection issue for groups with a lot of caps? Sure it's not instant power projection in the old sense but the groups with caps positioned all over the place will no long be penalized.

It should be 10 days max fatigue so that the weekend player suffers as much as the dedicated player.


The goal of fatigue was to stop us from 3rd partying our entire titan swarm on fight happening across the map. This goal is still being met.


Can't you still cover a long distance by jumping multiple times? And if so wasn't the long fatigue there to penalize people for doing this? (I'm generally curious as I don't live in low sec)

I just don't see how making it trivial for alliances to more around the map is a good thing. Personally i think wars should be a long/drawn-out process where people have to commit for weeks/months, not just an additional activity you can do to find fights every weekend... Constantly missing move ops? join a group that is invested in their region!

You can cover a maximum distance between 20-25LY before fatigue maximizes and you have to wait 12 hours between each jump.

This is about the distance from YA0 to TVN, for reference. You'd have to endure about four hours of jump fatigue cooldown to do this, get stuck with 12 hours of cooldown at the end, and be capped out for fatigue with 5 days.

Or, you could fit for gate travel and take the same trip in about 22 minutes, assuming you didn't get bubbled along the way.


Thanks for giving me some perspective.

I still think null sec will be become better if it remains difficult for capital fleets to be deployed in different regions. I don't think making things easy for your more nomadic groups like PL, who exist for nice kill mails and have more capitals than they know what to do with, are good for the game.

By penalizing players for moving around all the time, you reward the players that invest in and develop certain regions. Is making war deployment a trivial and fun thing you can do every weekend really good for the game?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#278 - 2015-09-15 08:01:27 UTC
Plus, why isn't fatigue reduction a feature of the upcoming sov structures? This would kill two birds with one stone as there would then be more benefit in owning sov.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#279 - 2015-09-15 10:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Team Five 0 wrote:
An unattended capture node event will self-complete in < 196 minutes

Do you even sov?
Let me explain how typically a real sov war goes.
First, there are skirmishes - roamings and BO drops. Opponents try each other.
Then, someone says "looks like we can take this moon/system/region, so let's do it". They reinforce it, and if timer is right - opposing forces come and clush in those furious battles that are reported on TMC and EN24.
After a while, one side realizes they cannot win this war. This is the time they unleash the most powerful weapon out there. That is not a thousand of Megathrons, not a wreaking ball, not even a full fleet of titans. It's weaponized boredom.

Now if you set regen time to 196 minutes, you bring this weapon to the whole new level. Works as follows:
1. Set vuln window at 4 am for attacker (doesnt matter what time it is for defender).
2. Never show for capture event.
3. Boom - headshot! War stopped.

Passive regen is a good thing. But it should take at least 24 hours.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#280 - 2015-09-15 13:43:30 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Thanks for giving me some perspective.

I still think null sec will be become better if it remains difficult for capital fleets to be deployed in different regions. I don't think making things easy for your more nomadic groups like PL, who exist for nice kill mails and have more capitals than they know what to do with, are good for the game.

By penalizing players for moving around all the time, you reward the players that invest in and develop certain regions. Is making war deployment a trivial and fun thing you can do every weekend really good for the game?

The changes don't make it faster to travel. Gate travel is still the superior option.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.