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Remote repair modules - rebalance of the mechanic.

Author
Anthar Thebess
#1 - 2015-09-09 09:12:13 UTC
Where are we now?
In a place where having enough logistic ships in your fleet makes you invulnerable unless someone use a alpha doctrine.
So more ships you bring to the fight the better , as very fast you can get to the point where enemy need to blue ball you , as he will not be able to do any damage.

What i propose?

Change how the remote aid modules work.
Now if ship have 10.000 points of shield and armor , and enemy take 5.000 of them in 15 seconds your logistic wing can instantly repair 5.000 points in 1 cycle , each cycle.
My proposition is to change this by introducing a repair pool , that define how much specific hit points can be repaired.

Lets assume that you can repair up to 30% of raw hit points each 15 seconds , all reps above this value will bring you no good or harm.
After introducing this change previous example will look like.

Ship have 10.000 points of shield and armor , and enemy take 5.000 of them in 15 seconds your logistic wing can instantly repair 3.000 points in 1 cycle , but for next 15 seconds they cannot help this ship any more.



Just to help smaller units , we can base % repaired based on the hull size , per specific time , lets assume 15 seconds.
By hull size:
Frigates / destroyers : 70%
Cruisers, Battlecruisers , battleships : 30%
Capital ships : 15%

Local repairs are not included or affected by this cap.

This will change a lot on the battlefield , and smaller forces will be always able to do damage , as they can do more damage than specific cap every 15 seconds.
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-09-09 10:25:21 UTC
A lot of people seem to have complicated solutions to the logi issue. I don't know why we can't just keep it simple and limit the number of reps that can be active on a target.

Need more repping power? then bring bigger, more vulnerable ships!

This would also open things up for an battleship sized logistic ship and the introduction of faction large reps.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2015-09-09 10:40:46 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
A lot of people seem to have complicated solutions to the logi issue. I don't know why we can't just keep it simple and limit the number of reps that can be active on a target.

Need more repping power? then bring bigger, more vulnerable ships!

This would also open things up for an battleship sized logistic ship and the introduction of faction large reps.


Even for the relatively short duration I've been on the forums, this gets brought up a lot, and shot down immediately by nullsec groups that outline precisely how they'd use that sort of artificial cap to completely screw you over.

Generally speaking artificial caps are a bad thing and should be avoided whenever possible. Yes, exceptions exist, but only because a better solution hasn't been found yet.

That said, if I were to tweak remote logi, I'd have an idea inspired by the incredibly popular and never-at-all-convtroversial subject of jump fatigue. You receive remote reps...it starts a timer. Next remote rep that lands has a diminished strength by percentage. Perhaps a tenth of a percent. Each additional remote rep that lands increases that lands ups the diminishing return timer by a tenth of a percent. This timer lasts thirty minutes. If you go thirty minutes without remote reps landing (local reps are fine), the diminished rep timer resets completely.

To tweak it, there'd be a multiplier based on what size the remote rep is. 1x (one-tenth of a percent per rep) small, 2x (two-tenths of a percent per rep) for medium, 3x for large, 5x for capital.

But that's just an idea. I'm sure someone could exploit it somehow, but I think it's a slightly better system than what we have now. And remember - improvements have to be just that - improvements! You don't need to replace a bad system with a perfect system, just a better system. And keep improving.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2015-09-09 10:49:07 UTC
Dropping their max locked targets is quicker, easier, rewards enemy FC target switching, provides an indirect cap chaining nerf and doesn't dump on small gang.

Seems simple enough.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2015-09-09 10:55:15 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Dropping their max locked targets is quicker, easier, rewards enemy FC target switching, provides an indirect cap chaining nerf and doesn't dump on small gang.

Seems simple enough.


Oftentimes the simplest solutions are the best.
Anthar Thebess
#6 - 2015-09-09 11:28:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
This is interesting , limit logi only to target 2 targets.
Problem arise when someone want to use logi to something different , lets also not forget about ultimate logistic ships : carriers.
Unless we forbid using capital remote aid without the triage module active ( that will limit number of locket targets ) then we have another important issue.

"Logi Fatigue" is interesting , but i think my solution is easier to compute by server , additionally yours can be easily abused.

"FC: Start repping enemy titan using small reps!. Fast before enemy triage carriers jump in!"
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-09-09 11:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Carriers are fine imo because:

a) When caps entire it's not small gang any more
b) They serve as a serious raise of the stakes and can provoke escalations - or equally valuably, provide a "look, just **** off" message to a small enemy harassing fleet
c) Caps need something these days, more nerfs are not it.

2 is too low, 5 (maybe 6) is a good number. Couple of cap buddies and 3/4 RR targets available. That will fill up real quick even with just the prelock squishies. Auto targetters to rise the number of targets chew highslots so another win there in terms of choices/compromise.

An accompanying buff to armor scan res and nerf to shield would be required as armor are hurt more by target swapping.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2015-09-09 11:41:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Khan Wrenth
Anthar Thebess wrote:
This is interesting , limit logi only to target 2 targets.
Problem arise when someone want to use logi to something different , lets also not forget about ultimate logistic ships : carriers.
Unless we forbid using capital remote aid without the triage module active ( that will limit number of locket targets ) then we have another important issue.

"Logi Fatigue" is interesting , but i think my solution is easier to compute by server , additionally yours can be easily abused.

"FC: Start repping enemy titan using small reps!. Fast before enemy triage carriers jump in!"


True but that's why I gave a number that I thought would make such a tactic useless. Perhaps it would need to be less (a hundreth of a percent?), but you'd have to rep a lot before you could make a noticeable difference in incoming rep amount, which is putting you at a significant disadvantage because your logi is being killed off while trying to repair enemy ships. Just doesn't work. The premise was to eliminate long standoffs where either side's logi made it impossible to destroy ships because the amount of logi on the field could overcome all DPS on field. So, over time, that logi would diminish and you'd eventually be able to finish off that target. That is what I understand to be the biggest problem with remote reps - in enough numbers they can make fleets invincible. So, diminishing their use on a per-target basis over time would eliminate that. Numbers would need tweaked, but it's workable.

But again, I also like the idea AFKALT put forth - drop max targets.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#9 - 2015-09-09 11:41:21 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
A lot of people seem to have complicated solutions to the logi issue. I don't know why we can't just keep it simple and limit the number of reps that can be active on a target.

Need more repping power? then bring bigger, more vulnerable ships!

This would also open things up for an battleship sized logistic ship and the introduction of faction large reps.



I have an even simpler one bring e-war force your opponents to spread out and spread your dose in an organised way

Do this will and you can beat a logi heavy team without alpha
Anthar Thebess
#10 - 2015-09-09 11:48:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
A lot of people seem to have complicated solutions to the logi issue. I don't know why we can't just keep it simple and limit the number of reps that can be active on a target.

Need more repping power? then bring bigger, more vulnerable ships!

This would also open things up for an battleship sized logistic ship and the introduction of faction large reps.



I have an even simpler one bring e-war force your opponents to spread out and spread your dose in an organised way

Do this will and you can beat a logi heavy team without alpha


"Bring more" is not a good answer , because simply , if enemy is getting more ewar , get more logi ships.
Sometimes ewar is useless , or to easy to counter.

Simple example , damps when 2 fleets are sniper doctrines that have logistic ships sitting at 0.
You can still scan res damp, but this are usually battleship fleet ....
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#11 - 2015-09-09 11:48:17 UTC
We already have the mechanic whereby only one tractor can operate on an object at once, expand this to the logi modules maybe.
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2015-09-09 11:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Anthar Thebess wrote:

"FC: Start repping enemy titan using small reps!. Fast before enemy triage carriers jump in!"


Simply change the mechanics so that you can only be repped by people in fleet.

Or

Cap the number of reps per size. For example, you can have 4 small, 4 meds, 4 large 4 capital reps on you at the same time.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

I have an even simpler one bring e-war force your opponents to spread out and spread your dose in an organised way

Do this will and you can beat a logi heavy team without alpha


You can do that now mate, so i doesn't fix the issue
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-09-09 11:52:52 UTC
Fixing Logistics

Worth to read an consider his words.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Anthar Thebess
#14 - 2015-09-09 11:55:35 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:

"FC: Start repping enemy titan using small reps!. Fast before enemy triage carriers jump in!"


Simply change the mechanics so that you can only be repped by people in fleet.

Or

Cap the number of reps per size. For example, you can have 5 small, 5 meds, 5 large 5 capital reps on you at the same time.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

I have an even simpler one bring e-war force your opponents to spread out and spread your dose in an organised way

Do this will and you can beat a logi heavy team without alpha


You can do that now mate, so i doesn't fix the issue


You cannot limit reps to fleet only , they have wide use in small gangs, traps, etc etc.
When you difference rep size, again you make it harder to calculate.

From coding perspective, i prefer to have 3 additional variables per ship.
1 calculated rep cap for shield
2 calculated rep cap for armor
3 expire timer
(no cap for hull?)

After this when specific cap is reached , all incoming reps go to void.
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2015-09-09 12:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Why couldn't reps be fleet only? You could still do everything you can do now as long as you are in the same fleet. The only downside is that you are screwed if you DC.

I don't immediately like the idea of diminishing returns because, for small gangs, it still makes it about how has the most logi.

I guess there needs to be a discussion on what is the acceptable repping power of a fleet. Once that has be decided CCP just need to adjust the mechanics so that there is a rapid falloff in rep power after the this theoretical rep constraint is reached power has been reached.
Anthar Thebess
#16 - 2015-09-09 12:08:50 UTC
How often 2 gangs meet,and combine forces to kick 3rd one?
Neutral logistic in higsec? They are still there.

But yes this can be disabled, put more strain on the super capital battles as very often there are multiple fleets that rep/shoot single ship.
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-09-09 12:19:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
In my experience, combined forces combine their fleets. If they don't they aren't concerned with repping the guys who broadcast history they can't see, they just team up to kill stuff. Neutral reps, for stuff like station games would be unaffected as long as you are in the same fleet.
Anthar Thebess
#18 - 2015-09-09 12:22:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Rek Seven wrote:
In my experience, combined forces combine their fleets. If they don't they aren't concerned with repping the guys who broadcast history they can't see, they just team up to kill stuff. Neutral reps are for stuff like station games is unaffected as as long as you are in the same fleet.

In my experience , when you have 1200 blue on local ( and the same amount of enemy forces) it is hard to put all people in 1 fleet.

Still removing ability to remote aid someone outside your fleet will be huge nerf to capitals and supers - this i like.
But very often you fight with your alliance mates without a fleet.
Some neut group show up, you undock , and fight 5 vs 5 , and you fleet up at free time.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#19 - 2015-09-09 12:48:50 UTC
IMO remote capacitor transfers should use cap booster charges and not create cap from a vacuum.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2015-09-09 13:22:52 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
IMO remote capacitor transfers should use cap booster charges and not create cap from a vacuum.


So you want half the logi boat to have a limited life in a battle while the other half can still keep trucking for an infinite battle duration?
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