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Black Ops BS Rebalance

First post
Author
Lan Wang
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2015-09-11 14:11:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Rek Seven wrote:
Aliventi wrote:

You don't get it. You clearly don't get it. You have no problem with how BlOps BS turn out as long as you get your covert ops cloak. You are essentially looking CCP in the face and saying "Give me the Covert Ops cloak." and then handing them a golden nerf bat on a silver platter. You don't care how CCP uses that golden nerf bat on BlOps BS. To you many of the things that make BlOps viable are useless. "What do you mean you need a jump drive?" "Why do you have a cloaked velocity bonus?" "What do you mean you you have a fatigue reduction? You don't need that." All these things that make BlOps viable you don't care about because they have nothing to do with your play style. You are willing to trade the ability for BlOps to not suck just so you can go cloaky hunting. You don't care about how I use BlOps BS. You never have. It's all about you and getting what you want. You are basically saying "Who cares about the people that use BlOps BS in the way BlOps BS were designed to be used?"

The equivalent argument would be me saying "No ship in the game should warp cloaked. We need to remove covert ops cloaks from the game. Give them a cloaked velocity bonus like BlOps BS get. Who cares about the people that have fun covert cloaky hunting?" because I am a nullsec ratter that doesn't want to deal with covert cloaked hunters. It would make you furious because that is a direct attack on how you play Eve and how you have fun. (I am a PvPer, not a ratter. Just an FYI.)


When you are done ranting and sounding like a spoil toddler, perhaps you would be so kind as to answer the question...

How does what i suggest "trash many people's current play styles"?

Rek Seven wrote:
One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno.


@ Lan Wang, again you make no sense... Why would you HAVE TO use gates? It's an additional means of travel, not a replacement for the cyno.


it can already use gates but as explained to add an additional means of travel will mean something will need to be removed, most probably the jump drive or how it works so the cov ops cloak will become viable and encourage people to use gates (you said earlier in the thread you would like them to be using gates more so they are easier to kill), cov ops cloak is just a sloppy means of travel for such a niche ship

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Mavros Pete
Doomheim
#102 - 2015-09-11 14:14:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mavros Pete
Rek Seven wrote:


As noted in the description: Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines.

Covert black ops seems perfect for that.


Yes, hence the covert cyno that doesn't appear on overview and the cloak ability with less penalties.
Anything more and you will tip the balance. Its the only Battleship platform that can be projected without employing a Titan. Not every1 has one ( i think ...:)) Plus its a poor man's Titan, it portals stuff!!!

Another note , the jump portal generation skill reduces strontium consumption in titans, without having any effect in Blops. Maybe CCP could allow that skill to reduce the consumption of fuel for ships passing through a portal ONLY, not for jumping the actual ship. That way more ppl could join the fun Big smile
Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Warped Intentions
#103 - 2015-09-11 14:23:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Lan Wang wrote:

it can already use gates but as explained to add an additional means of travel will mean something will need to be removed, most probably the jump drive or how it works so the cov ops cloak will become viable, cov ops cloak is just a sloppy means of travel for such a niche ship


Roll So your argument is based on the assumption that a covert cloak mean it will need to have the jump drive removed... FAIL

I have already explained why a covert ops is even less op than it is on other covert capable ships and I have even suggested a solution that address your concern about covert ops being able to escape too easily when combined with a jump drive and mjd...

I'm don't replying to your weak argument is the vain hope that we can had an intelligent discussion and meet a suitable compromise.
Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Warped Intentions
#104 - 2015-09-11 14:32:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Aliventi wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:

Rek Seven wrote:
One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno.

You need to learn to read. You are the spoiled toddler. My entire point was that you don't care what compensatory nerf CCP give to BlOps BS, that will likely ruin the viability of BlOps BS, as long as you get your covert ops cloak. You don't care. The play style of hundreds of pilots who enjoy BlOps BS as they are doesn't matter to you one bit. You have no problem ruining the fun of hundreds, if not thousands, of BlOps pilots so you can go cloaky hunting. That seems really self centered and awfully spoiled to me.

Your solution proves it. The way you explain how you want to use BlOps BS as a cloaky hunting ship tells me that you likely will never cyno around. You get your covert ops cloak and cloaky hunting, but us BlOps pilots are punished because we cynoed in. We get a nerf to our ability to get away, which puts our multi-billion isk ships in way more danger than it is right now, so you can be a spoiled little brat who gets to go cloaky hunting.

You don't get it. No one here is saying cloaky hunting is bad or needs a nerf. But you have no problem nerfing our enjoyment and use for BlOps BS as long as you get your way. Any nerf is alright with you. All you care about is yourself.


"wouaaa wouaaa wu wu wouaaaaaaaaaa YOU don't care!"

Seriously stop the ranting...

I think you are the one that misread. Did you think i meant "prevent warping after cyno"? because i clearly said "prevent cloaked warping after cyno".

The existing blops style of play would be completely unaffected if this were the case. The only change is that their use would be broadened.
Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#105 - 2015-09-11 14:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Rek Seven wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:

Rek Seven wrote:
One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno.

You need to learn to read. You are the spoiled toddler. My entire point was that you don't care what compensatory nerf CCP give to BlOps BS, that will likely ruin the viability of BlOps BS, as long as you get your covert ops cloak. You don't care. The play style of hundreds of pilots who enjoy BlOps BS as they are doesn't matter to you one bit. You have no problem ruining the fun of hundreds, if not thousands, of BlOps pilots so you can go cloaky hunting. That seems really self centered and awfully spoiled to me.

Your solution proves it. The way you explain how you want to use BlOps BS as a cloaky hunting ship tells me that you likely will never cyno around. You get your covert ops cloak and cloaky hunting, but us BlOps pilots are punished because we cynoed in. We get a nerf to our ability to get away, which puts our multi-billion isk ships in way more danger than it is right now, so you can be a spoiled little brat who gets to go cloaky hunting.

You don't get it. No one here is saying cloaky hunting is bad or needs a nerf. But you have no problem nerfing our enjoyment and use for BlOps BS as long as you get your way. Any nerf is alright with you. All you care about is yourself.


"wouaaa wouaaa wu wu wouaaaaaaaaaa YOU don't care!"

Seriously stop the ranting...

I think you are the one that misread. Did you thin i meant "prevent warping after cyno"? because i clearly said "prevent cloaked warping after cyno". Your style of play would be completely unaffected if this were the case.

You just don't get it. You see it as ranting but have no competent argument against what I am saying. Which could be interpreted as you agreeing with me. You heard it here first: Rek Seven doesn't care about BlOps pilot's play style and how we have fun. All he cares about is getting his way no matter the cost to other player's fun and enjoyment of Eve.

I never interpreted what you said as preventing warp after cynoing in. You still don't understand how important the cloaked velocity bonus is to the survive-ability of BlOps BS. Until you understand that you will never see just how massive of a nerf it is that you are proposing. Of course it a nerf you will never have to deal with because you won't ever cyno around. How convenient is that....
Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Warped Intentions
#106 - 2015-09-11 14:42:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Dude what are you talking about? You have posted the same post three times now without actually saying anything valuable.

Who who said the cloaked velocity bonus would be removed?

How would your style of play be changed if other people used blops to warp cloaked?

I assume your objection is based on the idea that a bonus would need to be removed to accommodate to cloak warp.. What is your basis for this?
Lan Wang
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2015-09-11 14:42:51 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:

it can already use gates but as explained to add an additional means of travel will mean something will need to be removed, most probably the jump drive or how it works so the cov ops cloak will become viable, cov ops cloak is just a sloppy means of travel for such a niche ship


Roll So your argument is based on the assumption that a covert cloak mean it will need to have the jump drive removed... FAIL

I have already explained why a covert ops is even less op than it is on other covert capable ships and I have even suggested a solution that address your concern about covert ops being able to escape too easily when combined with a jump drive and mjd...

I'm don't replying to your weak argument is the vain hope that we can had an intelligent discussion and meet a suitable compromise.


you are the one who assumes they should be made to take gates.

Rek Seven wrote:
Their align time is longer, making them easier to catch on gates


if you read what i said, i said removed or changed, its been explained plenty of times why a cov ops cloak is not needed you just refuse to accept it because it doesnt align with your playstyle

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Warped Intentions
#108 - 2015-09-11 14:44:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Please show where is said SHOULD be made to take gates. And then tell me who you are to say what is NEEDED Roll
Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#109 - 2015-09-11 14:54:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Rek Seven wrote:
Dude what are you talking about?

Who who said the cloaked velocity bonus would be removed?

How would your style of play be changed if other people used blops to warp cloaked?

I assume your objection is based on the idea that a bonus would need to be removed to accommodate to cloak warp.. What is your basis for this?

Because if you don't remove the cloaked velocity bonus I will be going 731m/s cloaked in a double 1600mm plated Redeemer with no prop mod going. If I turn on my MWD and hit my cloak I will be going ~4.5km/s cloaked. You can't tell me that CCP is going to be okay with that. The cloaked velocity bonus works because non-covert ops cloaks have a velocity penalty. If you give me a cloaked velocity bonus (even a nerfed bonus) with a covert ops cloak either it will be broken without a prop mod, or with a prop mod. It may even be broken with both.

My play style will get a nerf. There is no way CCP is going to let BlOps BS get a covert ops cloak without a compensatory nerf. You seem pretty fine with whatever that nerf may be. I am not because that nerf will affect how effective I am in combat. BlOps just need to be adjusted stats wise and have some bonuses changed around. They don't need significant buffs or nerfs.

If you want a cloaky hunting ship go complain to CCP to fix the Nestor. Don't mess with BlOps.
Mavros Pete
Doomheim
#110 - 2015-09-11 14:56:44 UTC
Give Blops mini doomday devices, like titans Shocked (utilizing same skill). Once you fire it, you do an xyz amount of dps but cannot move for 5 minutes. No need for a skill to be monopolized by 1 ship.

CCP GIVE US DOOMSDAY CAPABILITY !!!! Now we will hunt supers with Blops \o/ , a whole armada of them. Unless ofc you opt for old school DD on blops, damaging each other in the process .

That would be fun...





Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Warped Intentions
#111 - 2015-09-11 15:02:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Aliventi wrote:

Because if you don't remove the cloaked velocity bonus I will be going 731m/s cloaked in a double 1600mm plated Redeemer with no prop mod going. If I turn on my MWD and hit my cloak I will be going ~4.5km/s cloaked.


You should have just said that from the start, then i would have countered with - simply change the % of the cloaked velocity bonus so that a Blops with a covert cloak can only go as fast as the current blops with a regular cloak. (Faction cloaks be damned)

Issue resolved. Feature approved! Twisted
Lan Wang
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2015-09-11 15:08:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Rek Seven wrote:
Please show where is said SHOULD be made to take gates. And then tell me who you are to say what is NEEDED Roll


I dont think they need anything...

Lan Wang wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
So you think they are perfect the way they are?


I dont see an issue with them tbh


you want them to take gates so they can be killed (see my last quote), you want to use a blops so you can hunt, how else do hunt in blops with a covert ops cloak without taking gates?

Needs and wants, this thread is about what they need to balance them not what you "want " them to do to make them more useful to your playstyle, adding more features is not balancing

Rek Seven wrote:
My reason for wanting a covert cloak or Ewar bonuses or the ability to jump without a cyno is so i can use it as a solo hunter without being almost completely dependant on having a cyno alt. That is a WANT not a NEED and i'll leave the latter for CCP to figure out


Solo hunter implies you will use gates, because using a jumpdrive causes fatigue and thats just a pretty useless hunter

Rek Seven wrote:
the fact that more people are asking for changes/buffs than not, indicate that Black ops do need certain changes.


which you sort of assume they need a cov ops cloak so they can be useful in all areas of space, (HS + WH)

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Obadiah Giaourtakos
Doomheim
#113 - 2015-09-11 15:16:01 UTC
Mavros Pete wrote:
Give Blops mini doomday devices, like titans Shocked (utilizing same skill). Once you fire it, you do an xyz amount of dps but cannot move for 5 minutes. No need for a skill to be monopolized by 1 ship.

CCP GIVE US DOOMSDAY CAPABILITY !!!! Now we will hunt supers with Blops \o/ , a whole armada of them. Unless ofc you opt for old school DD on blops, damaging each other in the process .

That would be fun...








I support this, always a delight to hear that Mavros Pete had another novel idea, good job son....... now go back to sleep.
Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#114 - 2015-09-11 15:17:05 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Aliventi wrote:

Because if you don't remove the cloaked velocity bonus I will be going 731m/s cloaked in a double 1600mm plated Redeemer with no prop mod going. If I turn on my MWD and hit my cloak I will be going ~4.5km/s cloaked.


You should have just said that from the start, then i would have counted with - simply change the % of the cloaked velocity bonus so that a Blops with a covert cloak can only go as fast as the current blops with a regular cloak. (Faction cloaks be damned)

Issue resolved. Feature approved! Twisted

No not at all. You would have to give me something on the order of a ~56% cloaked velocity bonus. And you still, yet again, are ignoring the fact that I will have to take a nerf that I neither want nor need to my play style so you can go cloaky hunting. There is no nerf that is worth that. If you want a cloaky hunting ship then go ask for one. Don't ruin my enjoyment and play style. I am not ruining yours.
Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Warped Intentions
#115 - 2015-09-11 15:37:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
To anyone unaware, my quotes being posted by Lan Wang are out of context and what i actually said concerning Blops balance in relation to other covert ships was this:

Rek Seven wrote:
when you compare a cover black ops to all other covert combat ships, it would fit in nicely.

DPS would only be a little more than a T3 or stratios

Their tank and scan res are lower than a t3

Their align time is longer, making them easier to catch on gates

The list goes on...


As a wormholer, i often camp a small number of systems for a long time using a covert ops capable ship. Successfully locating and killing the target without the use of combat probes would be highly ineffective without a cloak combined with the d-scan tool.

Now if black ops had the ability to warp cloaked, it would be less effective at this task and it would be easier for hostiles to catch me on a wormhole (or gate). That, and the weaknesses i mentioned in my quote, balance the ability to fit heavy neuts and a MJD (the only advantage) in my mind.

However, for K-space operations, I have already acknowledged that the ability to cyno into a system and immediately be able to warp cloaked might be considered OP. As suggested in my previous posts, game mechanics can be implemented to allay this fear or altered to ensure that the existing status quo for black ops activities are unaffected.

I don't think i can explain my position any better or reasonably than that. If people want to arrive at the conclusion that all this would mean that black ops would have to have bonuses removed, i can't do much to prevent their overactive imaginations.
Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#116 - 2015-09-11 15:59:28 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
To anyone unaware, the quotes from the guy above are being posted out of context and what i actually said concerning Blops ballance in relation to other covert ships was this:

Rek Seven wrote:
when you compare a cover black ops to all other covert combat ships, it would fit in nicely.

DPS would only be a little more than a T3 or stratios

Their tank and scan res are lower than a t3

Their align time is longer, making them easier to catch on gates


As a wormholer, i often camp a small number of systems for a long time using a covert ops capable ship. Successfully locating and killing the target without the use of combat probes would highly ineffective without a cloak combined with the d-scan tool.

Now if black ops had the ability to warp cloaked, it would be less effective at this task and it would be easier for hostiles to catch me on a wormhole (or gate). That and the weaknesses i mentioned in my quote, balance the ability to fit heavy neuts and a MJD (the only advantage) in my mind.

However, for K-space operations, I have already acknowledged that the ability to cyno into a system and immediately be able to warp cloaked might be considered OP. As suggested in my previous posts, game mechanics can be implemented to allay this fear or altered to ensure that the status quo for black ops activities are unaffected.

I don't think i can explain my position any better or reasonable than that.

Look, BlOps are not what you are looking for. What your post tells me is that you see them as this magical hope for your dreams of a cloaky warping BS. They aren't that. They are not combat ships in the way that you want them to be. When you take the whole package it is a "barely there" ship class. It's pretty clear you have no real experience with them because you don't understand that the compensatory nerf for the covert cloak will turn them for just "barely usable" to "trash" really quickly. These are not solo ships. They are not really capable of, nor designed to, solo much of anything. What makes BlOps powerful is they you have bombers, recons, and BlOps. The magic comes from the bombers and recons applying enough EWAR that your BlOps BS doesn't get killed. Another way to use BlOps is to jump in enough BlOps BS that you kill the target before it can kill one of your BlOps BS. I would never jump in my BlOps BS solo. Its strength comes from other ships on the field giving it the freedom to operate at low to no risk. You aren't going to have that when you solo.

I am totally down with you having a cloaky hunting BS. I have no problem with that. BlOps are not what you are looking for. Make a convincing argument for CCP to make the Nestor worth using. CCP is totally willing to listen to well made arguments if you are persistent in advocating for a change.