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Black Ops BS Rebalance

First post
Author
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#81 - 2015-09-11 09:25:16 UTC
Usefull in all space....sabres and hictors are not 100% useful in highsec, should we change them? capitals cant even be used in highsec, should we change that? bombers cant bomb in highsec, should we change them so that they are useful in highsec too?

That is not a valid argument, as said if you want to the cov ops progression then the progression is to get into blops and into a space where you can hot drop targets effectively just like if you want to use capitals then you need to go to low and null

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#82 - 2015-09-11 09:53:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Your last paragraph demonstrates very clearly why BLOPS neither need a CC nor dscan immunity and why them taking gates to assault someone is completely ridiculous. Is this really that hard to understand for some people?


It seems you are the one failing to understand but that is okay, my original question doesn't require you to. But i'll ask again...

If you are okay with a blackops being able to jump on a target via a cyno warning, what difference would a covert cloak make?

Whether you feel Black ops do not need them, should only be used as fleet gank ships, should not travel via gates or only useful in null/low sec, is irrelevant to what i asked.

@ Lan Wang, yet another ignorant post... HICs and bombers can fit a role in high sec that other ships can't. Caps or banned from high sec for balancing reasons.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#83 - 2015-09-11 09:57:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
it would make them near impossible to catch, the cloak right now means the ship has to be stopped before activating, warping out after a fight means you are vulnerable because you still remain on scan, cov ops cloak would take you off of scan and invisible as soon as you warp.

and its not an ignorant post you are being ignorant to assume every ship should be useful in all space.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#84 - 2015-09-11 10:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
People catch cloaky ships all the time. The bigger the ship the easier it is to catch so we would see more covert blops ships caught that we see cloaky nulli t3 caught... so it's another mute point.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#85 - 2015-09-11 10:17:39 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
People catch cloaky ships all the time. The bigger the ship the easier it is to catch... so it's another mute point.


how is a ship dropping on a target via a cyno, killing it and warping out cloaked not op? currently you cant cloak your ship while moving so you mjd 100km, to then warp out, this makes you vulnerable to being scanned out, pointed and losing the ship, you're being totally ignorant.

how do you catch a blops which has cyno'd into a system with a cov ops cloak and is warping around pings? you dont because the next time you see it on scan is when its jumping out and its too late.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#86 - 2015-09-11 10:37:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Lan Wang wrote:

how is a ship dropping on a target via a cyno, killing it and warping out cloaked not op?


It clearly isn't as there are lots of covert capable ships that do that right now!

It's extremely rare for capable black ops pilots to be caught when they jump to a cyno in a safe spot. Maybe there are some idiots who jump while combats and out and then make themselves even easier to probe by activating their mjd instead of warping to a bounce, but those rare idiots do not justify reasons not to do a thing.

... For every other case black ops will continue to be caught via baiting tactics or if coverts are introduced, they will probably be caught on gates and wormholes more frequently than they are now.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#87 - 2015-09-11 10:46:59 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:

how is a ship dropping on a target via a cyno, killing it and warping out cloaked not op?


It clearly isn't as there are lots of covert capable ships that do that right now!

It's extremely rare for capable black ops ships to be caught when they jump to a cyno in a safe spot. Maybe there are some idiots who jump while combats and then make themselves even easier to probe by activating their mjd instead of warping to a bounce... but those idiots do not justify reasons for your argument.


name 1 ship that puts out 800+ dps, can fit neuts, points, webs, mjd, afterburner, a ton of drones and 60k ehp tank can jump to a cyno on its own.

who jumps to a safe spot in a blops? i wouldnt class a blops pilot who wastes time by cynoing into a safe spot to then warp to a target who is probably already aligning to warp out capable, and its rare because thats not how you fly blops. you cyno onto the target not to a safespot!

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#88 - 2015-09-11 11:11:59 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:

name 1 ship that puts out 800+ dps, can fit neuts, points, webs, mjd, afterburner, a ton of drones and 60k ehp tank can jump to a cyno on its own.

who jumps to a safe spot in a blops? i wouldnt class a blops pilot who wastes time by cynoing into a safe spot to then warp to a target who is probably already aligning to warp out capable, and its rare because thats not how you fly blops. you cyno onto the target not to a safespot!


You are talking complete garbage and changing your argument mate.

Firstly, you never said anything about what dps and fittings you can add, you said "can cyno, kill and warp out cloaked" and i answered you.

Secondly, you described a situation where a black op ship would jump into a system where it can be probed down. If you were not talking about a jumping to a safe as a means of travel and where talking about jumping into a fight, then your comments make no sense...

....If you jump into a fight, there will be plenty of time for someone to probe you down or simply warp to their friend in need. A ship being targeted can't cloak and if you're not targeted/pointed, you can warp/jump put anyway.

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#89 - 2015-09-11 11:19:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
One last thing... I am not blind to the fact that covert ops on a black ops ship would make it more powerful and harder to catch, and clearly CCP would need to balance the mechanics.

One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno. I would go further and apply that to all covert capable ships.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#90 - 2015-09-11 11:41:28 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:

name 1 ship that puts out 800+ dps, can fit neuts, points, webs, mjd, afterburner, a ton of drones and 60k ehp tank can jump to a cyno on its own.

who jumps to a safe spot in a blops? i wouldnt class a blops pilot who wastes time by cynoing into a safe spot to then warp to a target who is probably already aligning to warp out capable, and its rare because thats not how you fly blops. you cyno onto the target not to a safespot!


You are talking complete garbage and changing your argument mate.

Firstly, you never said anything about what dps and fittings you can add, you said "can cyno, kill and warp out cloaked" and i answered you.

Secondly, you described a situation where a black op ship would jump into a system where it can be probed down. If you were not talking about a jumping to a safe as a means of travel and where talking about jumping into a fight, then your comments make no sense...

....If you jump into a fight, there will be plenty of time for someone to probe you down or simply warp to their friend in need. A ship being targeted can't cloak and if you're not targeted/pointed, you can warp/jump put anyway.



Ill simplfy this for you as you are clearly having difficulty understanding.

If you cyno into a fight and support enters system and you get away from grid, the current system means you cannot cloak till you have warped to your "safespot" and are at 0 velocity. this means as soon as you land a good prober can have the position of that safespot. leaving open to be caught. Risk

Covops cloak you can cloak while in warp, nobody will know where you land meaning you are pretty much safe, too safe. op as you are making them 99% impossible to catch.

anyway cov ops cloaks on black ops ships is a -1 for me as its pointless changing a ship to work in spaces where this ship wasnt designed to be used

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Mavros Pete
Doomheim
#91 - 2015-09-11 11:50:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mavros Pete
The way i see it, blops are fine for now.

The "125% bonus to ship max velocity when using Cloaking Devices" would arguably work better with covops cloaks, but then Black ops would be very op.

Blops are Supplise sex!, They dont need more tank or t2 resists, usually you set up the stage , drop and hit the targets (do the mind job).

The only thing that blops could do with, is more sensor strength , like recons, less susceptible to ecm.

Marauders get t2 resists via bastion, but that has drawbacks, like 1+1 minutes not able to move or dock.

The only Black ops ship that sucks is the widow, if you want to utilize ecm, then either shield or armour tanking it, you are paper thin compared to other races, other races have the option to paper tank the ship, for tactical reasons .
Widow needs some love, maybe if you want to use ecm, drop a falcon , thats its job. Give the widow some other bonus
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#92 - 2015-09-11 11:51:33 UTC
You can't cloak until you are at zero velocity? Shocked
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#93 - 2015-09-11 11:57:55 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
You can't cloak until you are at zero velocity? Shocked


well till your out of warp which should be enough time to get a scan on your position

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#94 - 2015-09-11 11:59:29 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
If you are okay with a blackops being able to jump on a target via a cyno warning, what difference would a covert cloak make?
They would lose something in return. The speed bonus while cloaked, HP, more fuel consumption, less base speed, covert cynos would be inhibited by cyno jammers, you name it.

If they could warp cloaked or were immune to Dscan, they would lose something in return. BLOPS are not in the same position as Recons before they got their HP buff and Dscan immunity gifted to the Force Recons. They were in a position where T3 and HAC outshone their capabilities by miles. BLOPS, on the other hand, are right now in a position that makes them a very powerful tool to use for their role and purpose. If they, in addition to their initial assault and run capability, could also sneak around undetected in a system, they would just get to another powerlevel and lose one of their few "weaknesses" (which is one of their strengths at the same time), which requires a cut of stats on other ends. Adding COC or DI to this power can only mean that they have to give something away.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#95 - 2015-09-11 12:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Rek Seven wrote:
If you are okay with a blackops being able to jump on a target via a cyno warning, what difference would a covert cloak make?

It would made a world of difference. I will reference your later post as to just how much difference it would make:
Rek Seven wrote:
One last thing... I am not blind to the fact that covert ops on a black ops ship would make it more powerful and harder to catch, and clearly CCP would need to balance the mechanics.

One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno. I would go further and apply that to all covert capable ships.

You are so hell bent on getting a Covert Ops cloak on the BlOps BS that you are willing to trash many people's current play style just so you can enjoy BlOps BS in a way they were never intended to or needed to be enjoyed. BlOps BS are a T2 SPECIALIZED ship. It's specialization is the ability to jump to a cyno and to bridge fleets to a cyno. Nothing else. It isn't designed to, and never should be, be a covert ops cloaking ship. THAT IS NOT IT'S JOB/SPECIALIZATION.

Chance Ravinne wrote:
Going to try to be objective here, having just trained into BOs myself, but having many BO pilots in my corporation.

When people ask for covops cloak on BOs, it's probably not because they think these ships need it for mobility or because they are hugely gimped without covops cloaking. It's probably due to one of two reasons. (again just trying to interpret, not saying it should happen)

1. These pilots trained into BO after falling in love with other ganky cloaky sneaky ships like bombers, Stratios, recons, and Proteus. They got a taste of frigate and cruiser cloaky shenanigans and want "the next thing." Black Ops feels like that thing to many players, but it is hugely different from how you fly the aforementioned ships. Covops cloak closes that gap.

2. They operate in places where the jump technology is not useful, either wormholes or hisec. For these players, saying "BO is super mobile it has jump drive" means nothing. You are telling them "BO is useless in your preferred space."

In addition to #1, Black Ops lack the ability to be used as true solo ships in the way you can use many other cloaky style gank ships. Not having a covops cloak or dscan immunity basically means your only approach option is camping one spot or jumping on a target. And jumping on a target requires at least a fleet or cyno alt.

BOs don't NEED covops cloak, but if they had this and/or dscan immunity their applications and ranges of use would be wider and more in line with the "natural" progression of sneaky gank ships players may expect. Covops would require some kind of small nerd to balance; dscan immunity may not be a big ask by comparison.

Shame on those of you that are advocating changes such as these to BlOps BS for reason that Chance Ravinne brings up. Shame on those of you for advocating a ship be ruined just because a ship is specialized and other people use it in a way that you do not find useful for your play style. If you want a BS sized ship that you can go cloaky hunting in then advocate for a new ship from CCP. But do not ruin other people's fun because they use ships and enjoy playing the game in a way that you do not. I respect your play style and have no problem with you enjoying the game in certain ways. It would be nice if you did the same.
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#96 - 2015-09-11 13:16:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Aliventi wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
If you are okay with a blackops being able to jump on a target via a cyno warning, what difference would a covert cloak make?

It would made a world of difference. I will reference your later post as to just how much difference it would make:
Rek Seven wrote:
One last thing... I am not blind to the fact that covert ops on a black ops ship would make it more powerful and harder to catch, and clearly CCP would need to balance the mechanics.

One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno. I would go further and apply that to all covert capable ships.

You are so hell bent on getting a Covert Ops cloak on the BlOps BS that you are willing to trash many people's current play style just so you can enjoy BlOps BS in a way they were never intended to or needed to be enjoyed. BlOps BS are a T2 SPECIALIZED ship. It's specialization is the ability to jump to a cyno and to bridge fleets to a cyno. Nothing else. It isn't designed to, and never should be, be a covert ops cloaking ship. THAT IS NOT IT'S JOB/SPECIALIZATION.


How does what i suggest "trash many people's current play styles"?

As noted in the description: Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines.

Covert black ops seems perfect for that.
Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#97 - 2015-09-11 13:42:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Rek Seven wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
If you are okay with a blackops being able to jump on a target via a cyno warning, what difference would a covert cloak make?

It would made a world of difference. I will reference your later post as to just how much difference it would make:
Rek Seven wrote:
One last thing... I am not blind to the fact that covert ops on a black ops ship would make it more powerful and harder to catch, and clearly CCP would need to balance the mechanics.

One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno. I would go further and apply that to all covert capable ships.

You are so hell bent on getting a Covert Ops cloak on the BlOps BS that you are willing to trash many people's current play style just so you can enjoy BlOps BS in a way they were never intended to or needed to be enjoyed. BlOps BS are a T2 SPECIALIZED ship. It's specialization is the ability to jump to a cyno and to bridge fleets to a cyno. Nothing else. It isn't designed to, and never should be, be a covert ops cloaking ship. THAT IS NOT IT'S JOB/SPECIALIZATION.


How does what i suggest "trash many people's current play styles"?

As noted in the description: Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines.

Covert black ops seems perfect for that.

You don't get it. You clearly don't get it. You have no problem with how BlOps BS turn out as long as you get your covert ops cloak. You are essentially looking CCP in the face and saying "Give me the Covert Ops cloak." and then handing them a golden nerf bat on a silver platter. You don't care how CCP uses that golden nerf bat on BlOps BS. To you many of the things that make BlOps viable are useless. "What do you mean you need a jump drive?" "Why do you have a cloaked velocity bonus?" "What do you mean you you have a fatigue reduction? You don't need that." All these things that make BlOps viable you don't care about because they have nothing to do with your play style. You are willing to trade the ability for BlOps to not suck just so you can go cloaky hunting. You don't care about how I use BlOps BS. You never have. It's all about you and getting what you want. You are basically saying "Who cares about the people that use BlOps BS in the way BlOps BS were designed to be used?"

The equivalent argument would be me saying "No ship in the game should warp cloaked. We need to remove covert ops cloaks from the game. Give them a cloaked velocity bonus like BlOps BS get. Who cares about the people that have fun covert cloaky hunting?" because I am a nullsec ratter that doesn't want to deal with covert cloaked hunters. It would make you furious because that is a direct attack on how you play Eve and how you have fun. (I am a PvPer, not a ratter. Just an FYI.)
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#98 - 2015-09-11 13:49:52 UTC
not really great at infiltration and espionage if it has to go through a gate where a sabre can easily just stop them and destroy any element of suprise

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#99 - 2015-09-11 13:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Aliventi wrote:

You don't get it. You clearly don't get it. You have no problem with how BlOps BS turn out as long as you get your covert ops cloak. You are essentially looking CCP in the face and saying "Give me the Covert Ops cloak." and then handing them a golden nerf bat on a silver platter. You don't care how CCP uses that golden nerf bat on BlOps BS. To you many of the things that make BlOps viable are useless. "What do you mean you need a jump drive?" "Why do you have a cloaked velocity bonus?" "What do you mean you you have a fatigue reduction? You don't need that." All these things that make BlOps viable you don't care about because they have nothing to do with your play style. You are willing to trade the ability for BlOps to not suck just so you can go cloaky hunting. You don't care about how I use BlOps BS. You never have. It's all about you and getting what you want. You are basically saying "Who cares about the people that use BlOps BS in the way BlOps BS were designed to be used?"

The equivalent argument would be me saying "No ship in the game should warp cloaked. We need to remove covert ops cloaks from the game. Give them a cloaked velocity bonus like BlOps BS get. Who cares about the people that have fun covert cloaky hunting?" because I am a nullsec ratter that doesn't want to deal with covert cloaked hunters. It would make you furious because that is a direct attack on how you play Eve and how you have fun. (I am a PvPer, not a ratter. Just an FYI.)


When you are done ranting and sounding like a spoil toddler, perhaps you would be so kind as to answer the question...

How does what i suggest "trash many people's current play styles"?

Rek Seven wrote:
One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno.


@ Lan Wang, again you make no sense... Why would you HAVE TO use gates? It's an additional means of travel, not a replacement for the cyno.
Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#100 - 2015-09-11 14:08:19 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Aliventi wrote:

You don't get it. You clearly don't get it. You have no problem with how BlOps BS turn out as long as you get your covert ops cloak. You are essentially looking CCP in the face and saying "Give me the Covert Ops cloak." and then handing them a golden nerf bat on a silver platter. You don't care how CCP uses that golden nerf bat on BlOps BS. To you many of the things that make BlOps viable are useless. "What do you mean you need a jump drive?" "Why do you have a cloaked velocity bonus?" "What do you mean you you have a fatigue reduction? You don't need that." All these things that make BlOps viable you don't care about because they have nothing to do with your play style. You are willing to trade the ability for BlOps to not suck just so you can go cloaky hunting. You don't care about how I use BlOps BS. You never have. It's all about you and getting what you want. You are basically saying "Who cares about the people that use BlOps BS in the way BlOps BS were designed to be used?"

The equivalent argument would be me saying "No ship in the game should warp cloaked. We need to remove covert ops cloaks from the game. Give them a cloaked velocity bonus like BlOps BS get. Who cares about the people that have fun covert cloaky hunting?" because I am a nullsec ratter that doesn't want to deal with covert cloaked hunters. It would make you furious because that is a direct attack on how you play Eve and how you have fun. (I am a PvPer, not a ratter. Just an FYI.)


When you are done ranting and sounding like a spoil toddler, perhaps you would be so kind as to answer the question...

How does what i suggest "trash many people's current play styles"?

Rek Seven wrote:
One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno.

You need to learn to read. You are the spoiled toddler. My entire point was that you don't care what compensatory nerf CCP give to BlOps BS, that will likely ruin the viability of BlOps BS, as long as you get your covert ops cloak. You don't care. The play style of hundreds of pilots who enjoy BlOps BS as they are doesn't matter to you one bit. You have no problem ruining the fun of hundreds, if not thousands, of BlOps pilots so you can go cloaky hunting. That seems really self centered and awfully spoiled to me.

Your solution proves it. The way you explain how you want to use BlOps BS as a cloaky hunting ship tells me that you likely will never cyno around. You get your covert ops cloak and cloaky hunting, but us BlOps pilots are punished because we cynoed in. We get a nerf to our ability to get away, which puts our multi-billion isk ships in way more danger than it is right now, so you can be a spoiled little brat who gets to go cloaky hunting.

You don't get it. No one here is saying cloaky hunting is bad or needs a nerf. But you have no problem nerfing our enjoyment and use for BlOps BS as long as you get your way. Any nerf is alright with you. All you care about is yourself.