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Black Ops BS Rebalance

First post
Author
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2015-09-09 12:33:51 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
i already use them in wh fleets.....

this is mosstly for lulz as t3s do it better and would still even if blops got the cov cloak

Unless you give Redeemer a geddon treatment and stuff like that with others, then I suppose there will be things T3s will not do necessarily better P

I don't know if I'm being serious here or what.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#62 - 2015-09-09 17:53:40 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
i already use them in wh fleets.....

this is mosstly for lulz as t3s do it better and would still even if blops got the cov cloak

Unless you give Redeemer a geddon treatment and stuff like that with others, then I suppose there will be things T3s will not do necessarily better P

I don't know if I'm being serious here or what.



Except the redeemer doesn't need that nor do the other blops and changing them that drastically just to have a place in an area of space that they are already gimped is not the best plan.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#63 - 2015-09-09 18:07:08 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


the scan res bonus is built into the hull if you want to take advantage of it risk a more expensive cloak or risk no cloak

the hearing bonus does peak my interest i'm not sure it would be good for the blops but perhaps a 1%per level to just give a very slight heat reduction at the start it may sound small but it would go a long way.

they do not need sensor strength buffs; back to the element of surprise and having better intel your support should be able to lock down enemy e-war and you should know in advance if you need ECCM

the prob launcher reduction i also don't like as Cov ops frigs are already a rare part of blops set ups.

they do not need a fatigue reduction any more than they already have the 8ly range gives them a very large hunting area so they don't need to move to much to get in place and with proper fatigue management my group has managed well over 20 drops in a single night with no more than gaining two hours of fatigue.

they also do not need to be cheaper to jump nor a larger or bay. Again coming back to their larger jump range means fuel is spent on the actual drops and not moving the ship and even b4 this a BR was always more than enough to keep a blops fleet out all night


A)Scan Res
Everything out there these days goes absurdly fast for its size and has extremely short align times. Even with no penalty and perhaps a slightly higher scan res, it would greatly help the bit of ambush predator to actually have some lock without wasting slots.

B)Heat
Just give them a flat role bonus of no heat damage for X seconds after a jump. You have your 'Show time!' mode of tank and weapons going nuts, which is what you want.

C)Probes
Again, just an idea to make them more self sufficient in case of oops. Not necessarily for hunting outright, but for finding WHs or other such stuff as part of a larger blops campaign.

D)If you want to see blops more often, make them mobile. People don't want to spend an hour and then wait an hour just to set up a BLOPS drop fatigue wise, when mobility is one of the principle strengths it should have. It doesn't. First jump is free sort of thing or some other such gimmick. Right now they aren't all that much more mobile than caps beyond the first jump. Honestly that would actually give them a defined niche back. Make it so people would want to make blops expeditions a thing, right now its just too much work and too taxing time and effort wise to move them much with fatigue the way it is. With capitals hamstrung, that should give a good niche to BLOPS, if they too weren't hamstrung.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Lugh Crow-Slave
#64 - 2015-09-09 18:48:43 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:


A)Scan Res
Everything out there these days goes absurdly fast for its size and has extremely short align times. Even with no penalty and perhaps a slightly higher scan res, it would greatly help the bit of ambush predator to actually have some lock without wasting slots.

B)Heat
Just give them a flat role bonus of no heat damage for X seconds after a jump. You have your 'Show time!' mode of tank and weapons going nuts, which is what you want.

C)Probes
Again, just an idea to make them more self sufficient in case of oops. Not necessarily for hunting outright, but for finding WHs or other such stuff as part of a larger blops campaign.

D)If you want to see blops more often, make them mobile. People don't want to spend an hour and then wait an hour just to set up a BLOPS drop fatigue wise, when mobility is one of the principle strengths it should have. It doesn't. First jump is free sort of thing or some other such gimmick. Right now they aren't all that much more mobile than caps beyond the first jump. Honestly that would actually give them a defined niche back. Make it so people would want to make blops expeditions a thing, right now its just too much work and too taxing time and effort wise to move them much with fatigue the way it is. With capitals hamstrung, that should give a good niche to BLOPS, if they too weren't hamstrung.



A fitting Remote sebos on 1-2 ships and go in with a high faction cloak you will lock faster than your cruisers

you should also already have tackle these are battleships they are not meant to lock small things fast

B) this would be incredibly hard to balance and tbh is not needed

C) they don't need anything in case of "oops" these are strong ships and you have so much control over how to commit them you deserve to be punished for oops

D) these things are not hard to move and are much much more mobile than caps as they can much more safely and quickly move gate to gate as well as jump past camps and when you want a new area to hunt in WHs are plentiful to move though the cost of giving them much more of a fatigue reduction is just to high


over all very few people have given a reason why these ships need any buff or change at all i don't understand why so many think this class seems to be lacking something
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#65 - 2015-09-09 18:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

over all very few people have given a reason why these ships need any buff or change at all i don't understand why so many think this class seems to be lacking something


But you keep saying "Black ops don't NEED X" which is just your personal opinion. If anything the fact that more people are asking for changes/buffs than not, indicate that Black ops do need certain changes.

Super caps don't NEED changing but due to their limited uses and consumer disatisfaction, you can be damn sure CCP are going to make changes to them.

My reason for wanting a covert cloak or Ewar bonuses or the ability to jump without a cyno is so i can use it as a solo hunter without being almost completely dependant on having a cyno alt. That is a WANT not a NEED and i'll leave the latter for CCP to figure out
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#66 - 2015-09-09 20:40:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Vic Jefferson
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


A fitting Remote sebos on 1-2 ships and go in with a high faction cloak you will lock faster than your cruisers

you should also already have tackle these are battleships they are not meant to lock small things fast

B) this would be incredibly hard to balance and tbh is not needed

C) they don't need anything in case of "oops" these are strong ships and you have so much control over how to commit them you deserve to be punished for oops

D) these things are not hard to move and are much much more mobile than caps as they can much more safely and quickly move gate to gate as well as jump past camps and when you want a new area to hunt in WHs are plentiful to move though the cost of giving them much more of a fatigue reduction is just to high


over all very few people have given a reason why these ships need any buff or change at all i don't understand why so many think this class seems to be lacking something


I get the impression from your responses you don't actually blops much at all.

Remote SeBos are sort of out of the question at all. By the time you land on grid, and then lock your allies so they can lock things....most things will have gotten away. In the old BC meta, this wasn't an issue at all, but given the ~7s it takes to get on grind and active between the time cyno is lit and you get there...you don't have time to get this set up. Likewise wasting mids is a problem too, as you need those for other things. This is why it makes the most sense to roll it into the hull innately and make them actually capable of catching things.

Probes would be superb. Probe yourself into and out of WH chains, get access to regions before you light up intel and everyone docks up for fear of a hot drop.

Blops are EXTREMELY hard to move. Which again leads me to believe you do not blops much. You need to basically get everyone you are going to blops with clear on jump timers the day before, by the time you have gone 3 jumps to get to a region you want to hit, you cant drop any more. Yes they are easy to move in the sense of, farther and faster than caps, but it is still prohibitively restrictive in terms of the work you have to do to get it set up. I totally and completely get why its a bad thing for capitals to be able to drop half way across the map and be back by downtime, but blops cant even hit an adjacent region and get back before downtime reliably. Why do you think Bomber's Bar lives in Thera? Wormholes are legitimately the only way to be able to move blops far and fast enough to actually do their job, and that clearly shows the problem.


Capitals and Blops should behave entirely differently in terms of local power vs projected power. They really aren't right now. For the reduction in fatigue and distance you get, you are literally better off dropping carriers or some such.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Lugh Crow-Slave
#67 - 2015-09-09 21:27:42 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
[quote=Lugh Crow-Slave]
I get the impression from your responses you don't actually blops much at all.

Remote SeBos are sort of out of the question at all. By the time you land on grid, and then lock your allies so they can lock things....most things will have gotten away. In the old BC meta, this wasn't an issue at all, but given the ~7s it takes to get on grind and active between the time cyno is lit and you get there...you don't have time to get this set up. Likewise wasting mids is a problem too, as you need those for other things. This is why it makes the most sense to roll it into the hull innately and make them actually capable of catching things.

Probes would be superb. Probe yourself into and out of WH chains, get access to regions before you light up intel and everyone docks up for fear of a hot drop.

Blops are EXTREMELY hard to move. Which again leads me to believe you do not blops much. You need to basically get everyone you are going to blops with clear on jump timers the day before, by the time you have gone 3 jumps to get to a region you want to hit, you cant drop any more. Yes they are easy to move in the sense of, farther and faster than caps, but it is still prohibitively restrictive in terms of the work you have to do to get it set up. I totally and completely get why its a bad thing for capitals to be able to drop half way across the map and be back by downtime, but blops cant even hit an adjacent region and get back before downtime reliably. Why do you think Bomber's Bar lives in Thera? Wormholes are legitimately the only way to be able to move blops far and fast enough to actually do their job, and that clearly shows the problem.


Capitals and Blops should behave entirely differently in terms of local power vs projected power. They really aren't right now. For the reduction in fatigue and distance you get, you are literally better off dropping carriers or some such.


I blops plenty buy what i don't so is rely on the blops for the tackle nor to i jump them three regions i will use WHs to find a new hunting ground

as for making sure my fleet is clear on fatigue i suppose i just don't have that issue as we rarley use alliance bridges and only once in a blue moon use caps however the fatigue was not just to stop caps from moving but pilots as well
Lugh Crow-Slave
#68 - 2015-09-09 21:29:44 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

over all very few people have given a reason why these ships need any buff or change at all i don't understand why so many think this class seems to be lacking something

the fact that more people are asking for changes/buffs than not, indicate that Black ops do need certain changes.



loudest does /= most
Lugh Crow-Slave
#69 - 2015-09-09 21:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Carebear Alternative
Echelon Research
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2015-09-09 23:08:39 UTC
Years ago I posted a thread about BO reform after flying one in Stain for several months. Six years later it seems nothing has been fundementally changed about BO ships.

http://eve-search.com/thread/1239730-0/page/1#1

Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2015-09-10 00:32:01 UTC
unidenify wrote:
probably same reason why Marauder don't have t2 resist.

reason is I don't know why


You should have seen the rage that was expressed when they were doing the tiericide for Marauders. At one point they did have tech 2 resists, but it pretty much shows why asking players what they want doesn't always work. You ask 500 people what they want ships to be, and you'll get 503 answers back.

Enjoy the thread.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#72 - 2015-09-10 07:21:40 UTC
Carebear Alternative wrote:
Years ago I posted a thread about BO reform after flying one in Stain for several months. Six years later it seems nothing has been fundementally changed about BO ships.

http://eve-search.com/thread/1239730-0/page/1#1



thats just everyone asking for cov ops cloaks, no they dont need it because jumpdrive, how would being able to warp cloak have any benefit when it can jump to cynos, most pointless idea for that ship

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#73 - 2015-09-10 08:59:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Lan Wang wrote:
Carebear Alternative wrote:
Years ago I posted a thread about BO reform after flying one in Stain for several months. Six years later it seems nothing has been fundementally changed about BO ships.

http://eve-search.com/thread/1239730-0/page/1#1



thats just everyone asking for cov ops cloaks, no they dont need it because jumpdrive, how would being able to warp cloak have any benefit when it can jump to cynos, most pointless idea for that ship


You answer your own question. The benefit is in the ability to warp cloaked. If you don't understand the benefits of warping cloaked that's your problem.

Straight Every ship with a covert cloak can jump to a covert cyno, so your comment makes no scene. Jumping to a cyno is a completely different method of travel.
Chihiro Chugakusei
Fortune Hunters - Navy Operations
#74 - 2015-09-10 23:56:06 UTC
seeing as its a basically useless class of ship. yes.

Keep it up, +1

Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#75 - 2015-09-11 00:27:01 UTC
Going to try to be objective here, having just trained into BOs myself, but having many BO pilots in my corporation.

When people ask for covops cloak on BOs, it's probably not because they think these ships need it for mobility or because they are hugely gimped without covops cloaking. It's probably due to one of two reasons. (again just trying to interpret, not saying it should happen)

1. These pilots trained into BO after falling in love with other ganky cloaky sneaky ships like bombers, Stratios, recons, and Proteus. They got a taste of frigate and cruiser cloaky shenanigans and want "the next thing." Black Ops feels like that thing to many players, but it is hugely different from how you fly the aforementioned ships. Covops cloak closes that gap.

2. They operate in places where the jump technology is not useful, either wormholes or hisec. For these players, saying "BO is super mobile it has jump drive" means nothing. You are telling them "BO is useless in your preferred space."

In addition to #1, Black Ops lack the ability to be used as true solo ships in the way you can use many other cloaky style gank ships. Not having a covops cloak or dscan immunity basically means your only approach option is camping one spot or jumping on a target. And jumping on a target requires at least a fleet or cyno alt.

BOs don't NEED covops cloak, but if they had this and/or dscan immunity their applications and ranges of use would be wider and more in line with the "natural" progression of sneaky gank ships players may expect. Covops would require some kind of small nerd to balance; dscan immunity may not be a big ask by comparison.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#76 - 2015-09-11 07:08:39 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Carebear Alternative wrote:
Years ago I posted a thread about BO reform after flying one in Stain for several months. Six years later it seems nothing has been fundementally changed about BO ships.

http://eve-search.com/thread/1239730-0/page/1#1



thats just everyone asking for cov ops cloaks, no they dont need it because jumpdrive, how would being able to warp cloak have any benefit when it can jump to cynos, most pointless idea for that ship


You answer your own question. The benefit is in the ability to warp cloaked. If you don't understand the benefits of warping cloaked that's your problem.

Straight Every ship with a covert cloak can jump to a covert cyno, so your comment makes no scene. Jumping to a cyno is a completely different method of travel.


my comment makes perfect sense, it doesnt need a cloak because they dont need to warp cloaked, no, no other ship can jump to a covert cyno apart from a blops, everything else needs a blops to bridge it, there is no benefit to warping cloaked over jumping on top of your target from 8ly away

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#77 - 2015-09-11 07:17:56 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Going to try to be objective here, having just trained into BOs myself, but having many BO pilots in my corporation.

When people ask for covops cloak on BOs, it's probably not because they think these ships need it for mobility or because they are hugely gimped without covops cloaking. It's probably due to one of two reasons. (again just trying to interpret, not saying it should happen)

1. These pilots trained into BO after falling in love with other ganky cloaky sneaky ships like bombers, Stratios, recons, and Proteus. They got a taste of frigate and cruiser cloaky shenanigans and want "the next thing." Black Ops feels like that thing to many players, but it is hugely different from how you fly the aforementioned ships. Covops cloak closes that gap.

2. They operate in places where the jump technology is not useful, either wormholes or hisec. For these players, saying "BO is super mobile it has jump drive" means nothing. You are telling them "BO is useless in your preferred space."

In addition to #1, Black Ops lack the ability to be used as true solo ships in the way you can use many other cloaky style gank ships. Not having a covops cloak or dscan immunity basically means your only approach option is camping one spot or jumping on a target. And jumping on a target requires at least a fleet or cyno alt.

BOs don't NEED covops cloak, but if they had this and/or dscan immunity their applications and ranges of use would be wider and more in line with the "natural" progression of sneaky gank ships players may expect. Covops would require some kind of small nerd to balance; dscan immunity may not be a big ask by comparison.


so really just give them more features so they are to become relevant in space where the jumpdrive cant be used, how exactly do you balance something like that?

if that is the case then they should be left alone, if you want to play with the big boys toys go to nullsec and play with them

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#78 - 2015-09-11 07:42:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Chance Ravinne wrote:
In addition to #1, Black Ops lack the ability to be used as true solo ships in the way you can use many other cloaky style gank ships. Not having a covops cloak or dscan immunity basically means your only approach option is camping one spot or jumping on a target. And jumping on a target requires at least a fleet or cyno alt.

The entire point of BLOPS is PVP (save for the Sin which is also an exceptionally good PVE ship in hostile Null sec). There is absolutely no need for them to be used as "true solo" ship. BLOPS are meant to operate in fleets, to jump and to be used somewhere where you cannot (necessarily) go by gates and to assault someone in their safe territory. You/These people again try to change a perfectly fine working thing into something that completely removes it from its role and niche.

I also do not understand your point 2. Any cloaky camper can only truly work or cloaky attacker can only work in Low sec and Null sec where you can light a cyno and assault some careless group. BLOPS, whether with or without Cov Ops Cloak, cloaky Proteus, Stratios or Bombers cannot work in High sec, unless there is a war dec. There are a lot better options available for High sec assaults, both in and outside of wars. And when it comes to WH space, you need ships that can tank more, lock faster and are less vulnerable to the NPC aggression in case you try to attack someone in an anomaly or complex. And you need ships that are more agile than BLOPS. In neither case, dscan invisibility or Cov Ops Cloaks help. Which makes your arguments invalid.
There is also no "natural progression" in covert ships. Bombers and Covert frigs can use CC, but are not Dscan immune. Covert Recons, can use CC and are Dscan immune. Stratios/Astero can use CC, but are not dscan immune. BR can use CC, are not dscan immune, but their cargo is immune to scanning. BLOPS cannot use CC and are not dscan immune, but can jump to any system in K-space, whether cyno inhibited by players or not. Covert ships are all incoherent and have abilities that meet their intended roles.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#79 - 2015-09-11 09:04:39 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

I also do not understand your point 2. Any cloaky camper can only truly work or cloaky attacker can only work in Low sec and Null sec where you can light a cyno and assault some careless group


I think he was perfectly clear. The strength of a covert cloak capable ship is its ability to get within attack range without being seen and you don't need a cyno for that. The only way to get a Black ops into attack range is by using a second character to light a cyno which can only be used in low sec and null sec.

If Black ops were given a covert cloak, they would:
1. Be useful in all parts of space
2. Be the logical progression in cloaky ships after covert cruisers
3. Be able to do their job of harassing an enemy in his system without the need for a cyno

What i don't understand is, if people are okay with a blackops being able to jump on you without warning via a cyno, what difference would a cloak make? If i nether your ratting system as a covert black ops, you see me on local straight away, I have to find you, warp to you, get in range of you, decloak and wait at least 5 seconds to lock you and then prey that you aren't bait and that my ****** tank can outlast you... Straight
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#80 - 2015-09-11 09:16:15 UTC
It would not. The point of BLOPS is that they do not need to take gates. Their entire purpose is to jump on a covert cyno to circumvent all and any passive defense that you can put up in a system. If they come through a gate, they can easily be spotted and slowed down with bubbles, which makes their entire purpose go obsolete. Your last paragraph demonstrates very clearly why BLOPS neither need a CC nor dscan immunity and why them taking gates to assault someone is completely ridiculous. Is this really that hard to understand for some people?

They also do not need to be useful in all areas of space. There is no reason for a ship with this role to be particularly useful in High sec as there is no way for them to assault targets with their particular niche role and purpose.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.