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Black Ops BS Rebalance

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2015-09-08 12:30:34 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Actually the legitimate call for it, is wormholes, for heavier additions to a cloaky fleet.

They'd make a nice change of pace to see.


i already use them in wh fleets.....

this is mosstly for lulz as t3s do it better and would still even if blops got the cov cloak



Blops can get better DPS/hull ratio if you're low on bodies.

Redeemer is a solid 1100-1200 with heat - cloaky T3s can't get up there.

It's niche, granted.

I doubt much else would change even if they got the cloak, let's face it the existing meta is jump>gank>watch netflix whilst waiting out fatigue>jump home.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#22 - 2015-09-08 12:33:36 UTC
afkalt wrote:



Blops can get better DPS/hull ratio if you're low on bodies.

Redeemer is a solid 1100-1200 with heat - cloaky T3s can't get up there.

It's niche, granted.

I doubt much else would change even if they got the cloak, let's face it the existing meta is jump>gank>watch netflix whilst waiting out fatigue>jump home.


true but how much are you willing to lose for that niche

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-09-08 12:39:16 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
afkalt wrote:



Blops can get better DPS/hull ratio if you're low on bodies.

Redeemer is a solid 1100-1200 with heat - cloaky T3s can't get up there.

It's niche, granted.

I doubt much else would change even if they got the cloak, let's face it the existing meta is jump>gank>watch netflix whilst waiting out fatigue>jump home.


true but how much are you willing to lose for that niche


I'd like to think they've already paid for their sins with fatigue tbh Smile

However I don't want one, doesn't matter to me, just pointing out there is a narrow case where it would be useful. It wouldn't add much to the area of the game I use mine in.
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#24 - 2015-09-08 12:44:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

this is just not a good trade in any way so how about an argument as to why they should have cov ops cloaks


Simple. Right now they are either bridging platforms or gank ships. If you use it as a gank ship there are already ships that can do the job as good if not better and if you are using it as a bridge ship, you are a bored pilot or and alt.

Adding a cloak would make black ops the next step for those of us who like cloaky combat and scouting, at the price of having to accept the inherent weaknesses of battleships.

A covert ops cloak would make the ship better in my opinion, while keeping it balanced. I'm not saying that it needs to have a cloak, i'm saying that a covert cloak would be better than T2 resists.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Lugh Crow-Slave
#25 - 2015-09-08 12:48:02 UTC
afkalt wrote:


I'd like to think they've already paid for their sins with fatigue tbh Smile

However I don't want one, doesn't matter to me, just pointing out there is a narrow case where it would be useful. It wouldn't add much to the area of the game I use mine in.


Well like i have pointed out being active during warp is not the only thing they do different and this would break them if they stayed as they are now lol

as well fatigue did not hurt them near as much as you hear ppl complain about other than no instant gtfo once cap is up

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#26 - 2015-09-08 12:52:52 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

this is just not a good trade in any way so how about an argument as to why they should have cov ops cloaks


Simple. Right now they are either bridging platforms or gank ships. If you use it as a gank ship there are already ships that can do the job as good if not better and if you are using it a bridge ship, you are a bored pilot or and alt.

Adding a cloak would make black ops the next step for those of us who like cloaky combat and scouting, at the price of the inherent weaknesses of battleships.

A covert ops cloak would make the ship better in my opinion, while keeping it balanced. I'm not saying that it needs to have a cloak, i'm saying that a covert cloak would be better than T2 resists.


except it is meant to be a gank ship a get in do the job get out deal

not many ships can do the gank job as good as some of the blops


but plenty of ships can do scouting much much better and it would not make them much better for cloaky combat

and even if cov cloak is better that t2 resists neither is better than using the cov ops cloak

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#27 - 2015-09-08 12:54:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

except it is meant to be a gank ship a get in do the job get out deal

not many ships can do the gank job as good as some of the blops


but plenty of ships can do scouting much much better and it would not make them much better for cloaky combat


Nah i think bombers are the gank ship, whereas Black ops are intended to be a ship that excels at operating behind enemy lines.

The only thing black ops ships excel at is using the black ops portal.

Do you think they are perfect the way they are?

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

and even if cov cloak is better that t2 resists neither is better than using the cov ops cloak

What?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#28 - 2015-09-08 12:55:40 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
So you think they are perfect the way they are?


I dont see an issue with them tbh

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2015-09-08 13:03:34 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
afkalt wrote:


I'd like to think they've already paid for their sins with fatigue tbh Smile

However I don't want one, doesn't matter to me, just pointing out there is a narrow case where it would be useful. It wouldn't add much to the area of the game I use mine in.


Well like i have pointed out being active during warp is not the only thing they do different and this would break them if they stayed as they are now lol

as well fatigue did not hurt them near as much as you hear ppl complain about other than no instant gtfo once cap is up



Oh it doesn't hurt that much, it's just in the field of collateral damage waiting on timers is all. Hurt? No. Engaging gameplay and meaningful decisions? Good lord no. Largely down to their cloak, just activate and wait.
Luscius Uta
#30 - 2015-09-08 13:27:35 UTC
I wouldn't want to see them being able to fit Covops cloak but making them not appear on dscan could be interesting...

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#31 - 2015-09-08 13:29:35 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:


Nah i think bombers are the gank ship, whereas Black ops are intended to be a ship that excels at operating behind enemy lines.

The only thing black ops ships excel at is using the black ops portal.

Do you think they are perfect the way they are?


blops get much more dps than bombers and can apply it to a wider range of targets bombers just carry less risk

no i'm sure there is something out there that could improve them i just have not come across one that doesn't over power them
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

and even if cov cloak is better that t2 resists neither is better than using the cov ops cloak

Quote:
What?


not giving cov ops cloak or t2 resists is the better choice

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#32 - 2015-09-08 13:31:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Luscius Uta wrote:
I wouldn't want to see them being able to fit Covops cloak but making them not appear on dscan could be interesting...


That would fit with the idea of black ops... I would be happy with that along with an increase in cloaked velocity or the ability to use a prop mod cloaked Blink

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#33 - 2015-09-08 13:38:10 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
I wouldn't want to see them being able to fit Covops cloak but making them not appear on dscan could be interesting...


That would fit with the idea of black ops... I would be happy with that along with an increase in cloaked velocity or the ability to use a prop mod cloaked Blink


i dont get what you intend to achieve with this while it has a jumpdrive and mjd

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#34 - 2015-09-08 13:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

blops get much more dps than bombers and can apply it to a wider range of targets bombers just carry less risk

no i'm sure there is something out there that could improve them i just have not come across one that doesn't over power them


I don't think cov cloaks make them OP but I guess we will just have to see what CCP does. I have always wanted a black ops ship but they just don't offer enough advantages over other ships intended for similar tasks... I just hope CCP do something interesting.

Did you ever see the "sun bounce" idea? That was pretty cool. Basically it allowed Blops to jump to the sun of a system in range without a cyno.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Iain Cariaba
#35 - 2015-09-08 13:53:15 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

blops get much more dps than bombers and can apply it to a wider range of targets bombers just carry less risk

no i'm sure there is something out there that could improve them i just have not come across one that doesn't over power them


I don't think cov cloaks make them OP but I guess we will just have to see what CCP does. I have always wanted a black ops ship but they just don't offer enough advantages over other ships intended for similar tasks... I just hope CCP do something interesting.

Did you ever see the "sun bounce" idea? That was pretty cool. Basically it allowed Blops to jump to the sun of a system in range without a cyno.

Other ships intended for similar tasks?!?! What other ships? The only other ship that can bridge a fleet is a Titan, and BlOps provide many, many advantages over a 100+ bil isk space coffin. Or how about the fact that if you train Black Ops skill up, it's the only ship to fly faster cloaked than decloaked.

The only advantage a covops cloak provides is the ability to warp cloaked, which a BlOps does not need. A BlOps is a battleship, and as such should not be fielded unless you have a support fleet to field with it. CCP apparently took this into consideration when they left the covops cloak off in the first place.
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#36 - 2015-09-08 14:09:29 UTC
Try reading the rest of the thread mate.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#37 - 2015-09-08 14:09:42 UTC
If you give them a cov ops cloak LS will be littered w/ smartbombing BLOPS BS cloak warping around wreaking havoc. If you want LS to be totally deserted - give blops the covert ops cloak.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#38 - 2015-09-08 14:15:54 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
I wouldn't want to see them being able to fit Covops cloak but making them not appear on dscan could be interesting...


I was just thinking that. But as I consider what that would bring to blops, I can't really think of an advantage that would give them. They spend most of their time cloaked anyway.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#39 - 2015-09-08 14:27:36 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
If you give them a cov ops cloak LS will be littered w/ smartbombing BLOPS BS cloak warping around wreaking havoc. If you want LS to be totally deserted - give blops the covert ops cloak.


yeah and never get used in null because bubbles, and bombers are faster and cheaper to use, great black operation though "scout on gate shouts in comms, 10 black ops battleships coming your way 2 jumps out"

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#40 - 2015-09-08 14:27:47 UTC
I wonder what's wrong with BLOPS only being a bridge or gank platform?
If you want fleet combat, there are better tools available for less money and with less skill requirements, and these tools are a lot sturdier than BLOPS. And while BLOPS can only bridge ships that can fit Covert Ops Cloaks, they can bridge farther than any of the other 2 bridging platforms.

The role of the BLOPS is assaulting things far behind enemy lines. They can fulfill this role perfectly right now. They do not need another role, or this role altered or expanded upon, so that they turn into a fleet platform for 500+ man fights, but give up their vital assaulting characteristics.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.