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So... how would you nerf T3's ?
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Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#141 - 2015-10-14 06:54:29 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
Dude please, who in **** does that.

If you go for strawmen, at least pick a decent one

Going for strawmen would be be bringing up 3 T2 plate Proteus.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#142 - 2015-10-14 07:53:54 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Don't nerf T3s, buff Battleships and Assault Frigates!

Although, a ~2s 'warm-up' timer on mode switching in T3Ds would remove their insta-warp ability and bring them back into line.


That's called power creep and it's very bad for the game.
Fornost Fornostsen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2015-10-14 09:01:46 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Don't nerf T3s, buff Battleships and Assault Frigates!


Yeah and then go through another 2 year cycle of tiericide and balancing...
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2015-10-14 13:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastion Arzi
svipul 31k ehp (links and imperfect skills) with 400 dps relatively easily. agree needs nerfing

damn thing can even insta warp

and u can change modes while gate cloaked.
Magnus Gryps
Rational Chaos Inc.
Brave Collective
#145 - 2015-10-14 19:43:08 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Magnus Gryps wrote:
Valacus wrote:
It's high ISK, but low risk. They have a relatively small signature radius and guardians can keep you up virtually forever. Proteus gangs don't really anything, except maybe faction BS gangs, and those take just as much, if not more, ISK investment. I think the Proteus definitely needs a nerf, along with every T3D save the Jackdaw, which is garbage compared to the rest.


According to zkillboard about 200 Proteuses were destroyed within the last week. So, yep, they're killable.


That means absolutely nothing. They could have been 200 mission Proteuses. 200 PLEX Proteus. 200 badly fit PvP Proteus. Could have been destroyed by another Proteus fleet, which is very likely, or Machs. That doesn't make them balanced. Not by a long shot.


...or HACs (Ishtars, Cerbs), stealth bombers, BCs like it happened in some of the major clashes within the last days. Sure you can fit 2 1600mm plates on a Proteus just like you can fit oversized prop mods on almost any ship if you wish to. But then again, what do you get? Exactly, a point range bonused brick. You will gimp the rest of your fit doing that.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#146 - 2015-10-15 16:50:23 UTC
Magnus Gryps wrote:

...or HACs (Ishtars, Cerbs), stealth bombers, BCs like it happened in some of the major clashes within the last days. Sure you can fit 2 1600mm plates on a Proteus just like you can fit oversized prop mods on almost any ship if you wish to. But then again, what do you get? Exactly, a point range bonused brick. You will gimp the rest of your fit doing that.


We do it because its better than the t2 long point options and gets a bigger tank than the battleships it fly's with.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#147 - 2015-10-15 20:03:55 UTC
Magnus Gryps wrote:
Valacus wrote:
Magnus Gryps wrote:
Valacus wrote:
It's high ISK, but low risk. They have a relatively small signature radius and guardians can keep you up virtually forever. Proteus gangs don't really anything, except maybe faction BS gangs, and those take just as much, if not more, ISK investment. I think the Proteus definitely needs a nerf, along with every T3D save the Jackdaw, which is garbage compared to the rest.


According to zkillboard about 200 Proteuses were destroyed within the last week. So, yep, they're killable.


That means absolutely nothing. They could have been 200 mission Proteuses. 200 PLEX Proteus. 200 badly fit PvP Proteus. Could have been destroyed by another Proteus fleet, which is very likely, or Machs. That doesn't make them balanced. Not by a long shot.


...or HACs (Ishtars, Cerbs), stealth bombers, BCs like it happened in some of the major clashes within the last days. Sure you can fit 2 1600mm plates on a Proteus just like you can fit oversized prop mods on almost any ship if you wish to. But then again, what do you get? Exactly, a point range bonused brick. You will gimp the rest of your fit doing that.


What are you on about? Most, if not all, Proteus doctrine fits involve 2 1600 plates and still do plenty of damage, only they have better tanks than battleships, smaller sig radius, and they're faster. Those "point range bonused bricks" are one of the most used gangs in the game right now.
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2015-10-15 20:56:00 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Magnus Gryps wrote:
Valacus wrote:
Magnus Gryps wrote:
Valacus wrote:
It's high ISK, but low risk. They have a relatively small signature radius and guardians can keep you up virtually forever. Proteus gangs don't really anything, except maybe faction BS gangs, and those take just as much, if not more, ISK investment. I think the Proteus definitely needs a nerf, along with every T3D save the Jackdaw, which is garbage compared to the rest.


According to zkillboard about 200 Proteuses were destroyed within the last week. So, yep, they're killable.


That means absolutely nothing. They could have been 200 mission Proteuses. 200 PLEX Proteus. 200 badly fit PvP Proteus. Could have been destroyed by another Proteus fleet, which is very likely, or Machs. That doesn't make them balanced. Not by a long shot.


...or HACs (Ishtars, Cerbs), stealth bombers, BCs like it happened in some of the major clashes within the last days. Sure you can fit 2 1600mm plates on a Proteus just like you can fit oversized prop mods on almost any ship if you wish to. But then again, what do you get? Exactly, a point range bonused brick. You will gimp the rest of your fit doing that.


What are you on about? Most, if not all, Proteus doctrine fits involve 2 1600 plates and still do plenty of damage, only they have better tanks than battleships, smaller sig radius, and they're faster. Those "point range bonused bricks" are one of the most used gangs in the game right now.


They are 1+billion per ship. It also takes 2 months of training just to sit in a Proteus.

By contrast you can be sat in a Dominix within 4 days, and it's much cheaper.

I don't think T3C are unbalanced tbh, they are just very popular because they are versatile. The T3D are the problem because they actually make pretty much all T1/T2 frigates, as well as most/all T1 cruisers, redundant.

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
LordInvisible
Nova Ardour
#149 - 2015-10-16 08:14:52 UTC  |  Edited by: LordInvisible
So, reading thru whole thread I see this "fixes" (examples are made up, just to clarify):

1. T3D:
- modes get some penalties on bonuses from other modes: prop mode gives you penalty to tracking, exp radius, falloff, optimal, missile speed, reload time, w/e; sharpshooter gives penalty to base speed and agility; defense mode gives penalty to sig radius, scan res, locking range, w/e ...
- mode switch is penalized with no bonuses meanwhile its switching ( switch time 5 seconds), cooldown on switching modes is 20 seconds.
- they gain 15% more base sig
- they gain x% less base agility

2. T3C:
- tank subsystems puts ship in close range combat with appropriate removal of range bonuses, also less buffer and resists bonuses and more sig radius bonuses (or positive changes of it) on tank subsystems
- range bonused subsystems give penalty to sig radius and tank

Also: isk efficiency is moot point (ISK is too easy to get via legal RMT from CCP), stay out of it. Skill reqs argument is also pointless, since its really not hard to get into a T3, you shouldnt be flying one if you are young char anway..
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#150 - 2015-10-16 08:16:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Knuckles
Valacus wrote:


What are you on about? Most, if not all, Proteus doctrine fits involve 2 1600 plates and still do plenty of damage, only they have better tanks than battleships, smaller sig radius, and they're faster. Those "point range bonused bricks" are one of the most used gangs in the game right now.



oh my god shut the **** up really.

NO most Proteus fits don't involve 2 1600 plates, because to do so you have to gimp the fit so much it's not worth it. FFS medium ions on a ship that is so ******* slow a dread could kite it. The only fit involving 2 plates is just a tackler, damage ain't even part of the picture.

Also ******* stop with this "baaaah proteus has more tank than a battleship"

The pretty much universal proteus combat fit has around 250k EHP (slaves, links), and it costs around 1 bil, also makes you lose SP on death. 1 plate, 250mm rails.

If you want to compare that (tankiest T3, pricetag around 1 bil) to a battleship, you don't compare it to any battleship.

You compare it to the one fitting the same role (heavy fat mofo with short to medium range guns), which is the Navy Mega. Most commmonly used Navy Mega fit for around the same pricetag offers around 420k EHP (slaves, links, which also is way more than a double plated prot gets), less susceptible to alpha, more damage, no SP loss on death, in exchange for bigger signature and bigger res guns, which aren't a factor unless your FC ****** up.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#151 - 2015-10-16 08:25:46 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:



oh my god shut the **** up really.

NO most Proteus fits don't involve 2 1600 plates, because to do so you have to gimp the fit so much it's not worth it. FFS medium ions on a ship that is so ******* slow a dread could kite it. The only fit involving 2 plates is just a tackler, damage ain't even part of the picture.

Also ******* stop with this "baaaah proteus has more tank than a battleship"

The pretty much universal proteus combat fit has around 250k EHP (slaves, links), and it costs around 1 bil, also makes you lose SP on death. 1 plate, 250mm rails.

If you want to compare that (tankiest T3, pricetag around 1 bil) to a battleship, you don't compare it to any battleship.

You compare it to the one fitting the same role (heavy fat mofo with short to medium range guns), which is the Navy Mega. Most commmonly used Navy Mega fit, that for around the same pricetag offers around 420k EHP (slaves, links, which also is way more than a double plated prot gets), less susceptible to alpha, more damage, no SP loss on death, in exchange for bigger signature and bigger res guns, which aren't a factor unless your FC ****** up.


I would like to see this common navy mega fit you are using.
LordInvisible
Nova Ardour
#152 - 2015-10-16 08:37:53 UTC
Same price tag, a bit less EHP due to not beeing boosted by titan...

[Megathron Navy Issue, buffer]
1600mm Crystalline Carbonide Restrained Plates
1600mm Steel Plates II
1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25
500MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script

425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
[empty high slot]

Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2015-10-16 08:50:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Knuckles
i wasnt considering titan boost, i calculated it with proteus t2 links and fed navy mindlink, which seems more reasonable.

I go all tank on the lows, no magstabs, also a tad more faction / deadspace, same level of bling as on the brick tank proteus (faction EANM, deadspace membranes), 2 trimarks and 1 resist pump.

Also using blasters because, well, you gonna have vindi web in that kind of fleet, so why not.

Nets me 461k ehp with mid grade slaves (fkn 522k with high grades), 950 dps cold with antimatter, sports 1 heavy neut.


Yep, just as a prot eh.

*drops mic*
LordInvisible
Nova Ardour
#154 - 2015-10-16 08:55:37 UTC
you should get way more EHP then 420k then..

getting 510k EHP but dps drops to 272 from 400 with spike@150km optimal.


[Megathron Navy Issue, just buffer]
1600mm Steel Plates II
1600mm Steel Plates II
1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum B-Type Energized Explosive Membrane
Reactive Armor Hardener

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25
500MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script

425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
[empty high slot]

Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
LordInvisible
Nova Ardour
#155 - 2015-10-16 08:58:45 UTC
I guess prot is something like this then?
[Proteus, sniper buffer]
1600mm Steel Plates II
Reactor Control Unit I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Centum B-Type Energized Explosive Membrane
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Dissonic Encoding Platform
Proteus Propulsion - Wake Limiter
LordInvisible
Nova Ardour
#156 - 2015-10-16 09:03:25 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
i wasnt considering titan boost, i calculated it with proteus t2 links and fed navy mindlink, which seems more reasonable.

I go all tank on the lows, no magstabs, also a tad more faction / deadspace, same level of bling as on the brick tank proteus (faction EANM, deadspace membranes), 2 trimarks and 1 resist pump.

Also using blasters because, well, you gonna have vindi web in that kind of fleet, so why not.

Nets me 461k ehp with mid grade slaves (fkn 522k with high grades), 950 dps cold with antimatter, sports 1 heavy neut.


Yep, just as a prot eh.

*drops mic*


I thought we are talking fleet fits, e.g. snipers or ranged ones, not brawling stuff..
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2015-10-16 09:20:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Knuckles
LordInvisible wrote:


I thought we are talking fleet fits, e.g. snipers or ranged ones, not brawling stuff..



it is a fleet fit, why wouldn't you brawl with a navy mega, you gonna have vindi webs keeping everything where you want it and bhaals neuting the **** out of everything else anyway. Also null and a tracking comp on large neutrons give you enough range to engage anything this comp reasonably goes for.
If you want long range you're better off with other comps imo, but same goes for prot, even rail fits aren't really meant for sniping

edit: nah that prot fit doesn't work, wrong subs (you want hybrid prop offensive, friction extension elec, localized injects), no need for reactor control so subotpimal lows (DCU, 2 magstabs, 1600i mperial, faction eanm, deadspace explo (debatable, can go with other resist if you know no projectiles incoming really) and em membrane), also mids are generally gonna be prop, point, scram.
LordInvisible
Nova Ardour
#158 - 2015-10-16 09:25:28 UTC
OK, then disregard all my fits posted above, because you know, a fleet of proteuses is gonna wait for you to get in close range of them with navy megas..
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#159 - 2015-10-16 09:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Knuckles
LordInvisible wrote:
OK, then disregard all my fits posted above, because you know, a fleet of proteuses is gonna wait for you to get in close range of them with navy megas..



wtf does that even mean.

Either you are in range or you don't fight, it's that simple. If they're in point range, they can be hit.

Same as with a prot fleet vs say a cerb fleet eh, either you get the drop on them or you gtfo, or a sac fleet vs gilas, whatever.


But, well, if you wanna go rails on navy megas, you can (i just personally think you have better options, just as you have better options than a prot to snipe in cruisers / t3s) , the point (t3 tank uber alles = false) still stands.
LordInvisible
Nova Ardour
#160 - 2015-10-16 10:58:45 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
LordInvisible wrote:
OK, then disregard all my fits posted above, because you know, a fleet of proteuses is gonna wait for you to get in close range of them with navy megas..



wtf does that even mean.

Either you are in range or you don't fight, it's that simple. If they're in point range, they can be hit.

Same as with a prot fleet vs say a cerb fleet eh, either you get the drop on them or you gtfo, or a sac fleet vs gilas, whatever.


But, well, if you wanna go rails on navy megas, you can (i just personally think you have better options, just as you have better options than a prot to snipe in cruisers / t3s) , the point (t3 tank uber alles = false) still stands.


Your response is the mirror of your KB stats, so I'll refrain from dealing with you from now on.

Toodaloo.. o/