Ships & Modules

https://zkillboard.com/kill/48851606/
Yeah they do work.
10MN ABs are not inherently the problem. A lot of undersized stuff can fit them. Several of T1 combat frigs can. The real problem is the agility bonus that allows T3Ds to use 10MN ABs to a similar effect to MWDing ceptors with cruiser agility without actually being scrammable.

T3Ds are almost like a bad dream which somehow unfortunately became a reality. I would have thought that the frigates would have been the obvious candidate for the next T3 treatment.

Still, I don't think I would nerf them at this point. Maybe a minor tweak to the Svipul, but I mean a small tweak.

Overall I think there are ships that need work much more than any of the T3s. For example, the Cruor could use just a bit of a rework.

Usage statistics are just a clue. They do not necessarily mean the ship is op.

On the other hand indicate that the community has found a tactic and not its counter.

And yes, maybe the tactic is op, maybe not.

I would rather find discussions on how to counter certain tactics, rather than the usual, sometimes lazy, nerf speech.

T3 Cruiser HP subsystem changed / bonus removed.
HP Bonus on t2 ressist ships is stupid. It's fine on the Damnation.

I still find it ******** how these Cruiser sized ship's get rediculous EHP levels combined with either high dps or utility.
My personal opinion though :P

Also t3d's wrecked the healthy frigate meta we had. Doesn't matter how you change them they will overshadow the currunt t1 / t2 frigates.

If you nerf our hamlegions we just fly ham damnations ... more ehp more dps more/equal utility slots ... sadly bigger sig :(

So a real balancepass .... let's see, first we start with the issues currently ....


for armor:

-> Jammgus should get on equal level as falcons, if in short range you'll die (however i like 400 dps, 5 ecm 11,3 strenght rainbow fits with 140k ehp, why do we even need anything else....), also considering its resistlayout vs current DPS-Meta.

-> Proteus, wspaces DPS, countered by 2 medium neuts.... however its tank is nice, the long point/scramb is balanced, i'd say dps are fine, but ehp is too high, also considering its resistlayout vs current DPS-Meta.

-> Legion, mostly used for neuting, however hamlegions and (in case of ixtab) laserlegions can compete with Proteus in their DPS-Role, also nice utility slots, perfect for peccm/damps, pretty much THE allrounder T3 in game.

-> Loki, most people fit it wrong, it's not made for dps, the loki is build to increase your overall damage application and make sure that your target is pinned down, most fits aint living long in a bigger fight, however if fit correctly its doing allright and is very balanced, some may argue, that you have to plot 2 resistanceholes, but that's not true ;)


for shield:

->Tengu is fine as its current state i'd say, ups and downs are excisting, in pulsar it becomes VERY beasty :)

-> Proteus is useless shieldfit in compairson to a Lachesis.

-> Legion is fine for neuting, however i'd prefer a Curse

-> Loki most shieldfits suck, however there's a few very decent shieldlokis out there with only 1 web, if you want dualweb, rather go for Huginn, so balanced.


Now lets look on the subs:

proteus and legion aint intended to ever get shieldtanked by their subsystems
tengu wasn't inteded to be a very well tanked armor jammplatform
loki is squishy with most fits, but can reach 250k ehp without links + 400 dps very easy (again it's a utility platform, not dps!!!!!)


So, how to engage those issues?

First of all remove tengus t2 resists on armor OR add a defensive sub for armor tanking.... (with drawbacks), however personally i'd miss above mentioned jammgufit, but i doubt that it's balanced.
Keep Lokis as they are, IF at all, rather adjust their basicresistances a little
Legions either need a shieldsub or should lose their ability to shieldtank at all (also shieldbhaalgorns, i look at you :) )
Proteus needs to lose some buffer in armor, i'd say the ehp of a hamlegion is fine, if you decrease the total armoramount of a legion -10% and get the proteus on par it's fixxed, also we don't need a shieldsub for proteus.


And what about those 100 mn 120k+ ehp fittings?!

We can't nerf PG/CPU without ******* the other options up, instead i'd say rebalance capitals, because 100mn T3s excist to be "unblappable" (hello mr. Vindicator, mrs. Pheonix and Target Painters), however 1 medium neut allready fucks them up, gets worse if you vindi/vigiweb them and gets devastating if you have Pheonixblapdreads on grid, once neuted out they die quicker than their 10mn AB buddies, also try to tuuuuuuuuurn.....

T3-Hardcounter is very simple, a Fleet of Piratebattleships, Vindis, Bhaals, Barghests, Typhoon Fleet Issues, everything with equal tank and better DPS, however you need Support as well which is ... T3s (webloki, jammgu & neutlegion) :/ (+Logi/Triage), something which is not gonna happen in wspace due to Masslimits.

So if you want to shake up the T3-Meta, you need to balancepass wormhole jumpmass, EHP of T3s in several layouts and give them a clear roll in Fleets.
Also you need to Balance BS to become better than T3s OR introduce T3-BS & T2-BS as high-end Ship (which just transfers the issue from a cruiser-seized vessel to a BS-seized vessel).

Regards
RC

Nerf t3 ?!?! They are alredy nerfed !!!

With active tank they are easily countered by neuts / noses. With decent passive tank they do crap damage.

Legion with 1600mm plate and passive fleet fit with perfect skills and beams does 523dps at 22.5k. Ok it has 138k ehp. But the damage is bad. Similar thing is with Proteus.

Any more nerfs and they will be completely useless.

And look at the Gila wich is capable of 900+++ DPS and almost 100k EHP. Thats what is overpowered if you compare it to T3 and at half price of T3. Maybe you should start whining about Gilas ? Or about Machariel ? Which is almost as fast as T3 and does 1400 DPS and can neut as well ? Or spider tanked Domis with neus, which cost 1/3 of a T3 with 100% insurance payouts ?

Dunno about T3 cruisers: i don't fly them and don't face them a lot being in FW, but i think that the price + SP loss are intended to work on a ship a little OP.

T3D: they are a mistake and i really don't know if they can be fixed.
They are fun to fly and the mode change "on the fly" is a good idea.

BUT

CCP introduced them as small combat ships, a meta that was already crowded (t1 frig, navy and pirate frig, AF, combat ceptors, t1 dessies and dictors... Damn you can even combat fit an Heron!) and enough balanced after years of work (you have at least one ship that could fit one specific role).

T3D simply fills the role that previously was covered by AFs and T1 dessies (and even some combat ceptor) oveperforming them in every role.
Before T3D if you wanted good tank/DPS, small sig with some speed and agility you could chose between several dessies (more tank/DPS, less speed and agility, lower price and SP requirements) and AFs (less tank/DPS, more speed and agility, higher price and SP requirements).
Even dictors where used for specific roles not involving bubbles.

Now you simply prefer a T3D, the only pros for T1 dessies being the lower price and SP requirement while AFs are simpy unuseful.

I don't think it is possible to fix them becuase there's no role for them as pure combat ships.

1) remove T3D from the game entirely (they have no role), reimburse SP.
2) nerf T3 cruisers tank and ewar bonuses. From me they should keep their versatility but they shouldnt overshadow specialized T2 ships like lachesis or huginn in terms of their ewar bonuses... Either you want flexibility of T3 or strength in their own niche of T2, not both in same time. This would be balanced, price doesnt balance anything its just a factor (thats why titans are no longer pwnmobiles).

CCPs desperate attempts to bring in new content in form of unbalanced ships with redundant, not existing or overlapping roles to existing hulls is sort of annoying.

i was about to post "i will bitchslap the first guy that writes about T3 cruisers having the tank of a BS" but i see i came late to the party and someone already did.

Proteus. Best tanker among t3s, in the typical fit used (deadspace - faction tank, 2 magstabs), with links and slaves, has 200k EHP less than a properly fitted navy mega, which goes above the 430k EHP mark, while having better dps and better alpha, and whn you have navy megas around, you're also gonna have vindis with those 90% webs, and bhaals ruining everyone's life. So let's cut the bullshit, really

Also, wing of proteus to counter machs? are you insane? arty machs /TFIs are the perfect counter to a proteus gang, get enough of those alfa monsters and you volley them T3 off field, less than 20 will do the job. Math.
When proteuses counter machs, the machs have been outplayed, simple as that.

You bring BS when you don't care about warping slower and you don't expect your foe to bring bombers, you bring T3s when you do expect bombers / need to warp faster, you bring HACs when you'd bring T3s but don't wanna risk losing SPs and a 1 bill ship instead of a 250 mils T2

my titan costs >100b, i want it to win against >15 dreads 1v>15 because its investment is equal to X dreads
my AF costs >4 t1 frigs it should win allways against them.
should i continue to apply your logic ? :)
Guys just STOP with isk=better or isk=balance
every Player in eve gets richer in average, so isk for balance can't be any factor at all, considering that there's plenty of corps with TRILLIONS of isk.

If you balance ships only a few factors count:
1. it's role (tackle,supporter,dps,...)
2. slotlayout
3. shipclass (frig, cruiser, BC, BS, ....)
4. EHP/DPS ratio
5. Utilitybonus (webrange, dampstrenght,...)
6. Tech-/Metalevel
(7.rarity -> is this ship unique and can't be replaced?! This CAN be a reason for an overall stronger ship)

What players add as number 8 -> isk efficiency aka how good is Ship X for role Y in compairson to others
if a ship is able to do a lot while beeing cheap and efficient for it's money it in fact is a good ship, but if other ships can compete with it, it's not OP (keep in mind t3d are frigkillers, they are a counter to frigs and their own counter is cruisers, which get eaten up by t3,hacs,recons,bs,...)