Ships & Modules

This question comes in two sections..... The cruisers.... and the destroyers.... but overall its a simple problem.

If you ask "I need a ship to do X" the answer 90% of the time will be a T3.

Other ships can compete in certain areas, but when you take into account the full package they're just out classed.

Starting with the destoyers....

In one fell swoop they have, almost, invalidated all non specialised sub-cruiser ships... and quite a few cruisers too. Obviously not including Dictor or logi roles, but without much work the T3 destoyers are just better than any of their counterparts. In a single T2 fit, a Svipul can tank like a cruiser, do 400dps, fit full tackle and move 3000m's... admitadly not all at the same time, but with such a quick change time between modes i have found it makes little to no difference.

Better tackle than a ceptor, better survivability and dmg than a Assault frig, really fast, tiny sig, over heats for days. Other than nostalgia and "nobody will engage a t3" why would you fly anything else?

T3 Cruisers....

Sure a huginn has longer range webs than a loki, but it doesnt stand close to tank, speed, and damage (not even including the extra bits like bubble immune, cloaky versions). And it continues acroos the class.
If you say i can bring my lechisis... or my cloaky 200kehp tackle proteus....? I know what the answer will be.


So how would you fix this problem? is there any hope against our T3 overloards?

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Some of the arguments ive heard... before they appear...

Price -T3's cost more so they should be better....

Personally i think your paying for flexbility, you should not then out perform a specialised ship at their own game and then some, and certainly not multiple ships all at the same time.

Skill - its more skill intensive / i have the chance of losing skill points....

There are plenty of ships that need more skills than a T3 that arent as rediculious -_- They have strenghts and weakness.... instead of Strength^10 and weaknesses

i like assault frigs and i hate t3d's, dont think they thought about assault frigs when they released t3d's, my answer to nerfing t3d's is either remove them or buff assault frigs so they can compete

I'd like to see them hover near enough to the legion so still quite good but a little less terrifying.

There need to be more way that the enemy can exploit a T3Ds weakness in particular modes.

Without the modes they're just destroyers with relatively simple stats. But with them they surpass other ships at the role. Speed mode makes T3Ds faster than the majority of frigs. Defense mode makes them on par with cruisers. You can get some other frigs with similar tank but it takes a lot more bling with less turnover (22k EHP wolves exist, but not worth it when 22k +300HP/s svipuls do too for a cheaper price tag and the magical insurance they get).

For starters, the insurance needs to either go, or other ships need a similar trait. It's just too cheap to fly T3Ds. That's not to say that the insurance has no merit - it encourages you to welp yourself against unfavourable odds for the promised cost of a T2 frig but with the strength of a cruiser with frigate sized sigs and such. But that's not something that should be attached to T3Ds.

Base stats could be weaker. So that in a mode it's biased heavily to a particular role whilst being worse than average of the same size at other roles. And forcing a pilot to switch modes becomes a fighting strategy.

Hecate is the most balanced but shouldn't be the template for the rest. Having sentinels be the primary counter to this class is no better than it is now.

Nerf svipul. Rest are fine.

T3 cruisers however are not, they need a buff in some regards and a nerf in others.

Nerf? T3 Tactical Destroyers just need a balance pass (with emphasis on the Svipul). T3 Strategic Cruisers have already been hit with the nerf bat - they too just need a balance pass (to make some of the odd subsystems more useful).

Lower class w-space sleepers, duh. They are perfect for the job and they can defend themselves.

My first thought is to get rid of the 60% bonuses and what not on the t3ds and replace with like normal 20-37.5% bonuses. probably worth testing a bit first.

confessor has a 33.33% resist bonus, drop that to 20% like on every other ship with a resist bonus.
the 33.3 sig radius bonus, not sure how much that should get nerfed, but probably nerf that too. it shouldn't be the size of a frigate.

prop mode, I'd say tie that bonus to a MWD or something, the 10mn ab fits are almost silly. I feel like I don't see too many complaining about the hecate

sharpshooter, drop fro 66% to probably a 37.5% bonus so it would be similar to the apoc although I like the targeting range and sensor strength bonuses.

Part of the "problem" with T3Ds is they are a advanced combat destroyer, something that up to their point did not exist.
They do their job well, assault frigates do not, they were the first ships to get balanced and still had some of the old mentality when it was done.
Assault frigates need to get a second balance pass and brought up to the new standard.

For Svipuls the first page of zkill had ~35 mwd and ~10 10mn fits, then a few with no propmod and a few with 1mn abs. I should probably write it down as I'm bad at counting, but oh well. I don't agree with 10mn ab fits no longer work, unless they have another nerf on sisi that I haven't seen yet.