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Low sec DED sites
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Daku Otsito
Otsito Response Team
#21 - 2015-12-01 10:57:51 UTC
Let me try to help by breaking it down

1. travelling in low and scanning

best ships : T3s and stratios

2. Running the site (dps tank considered )

best ships : BS, and T3s (a t2 tengu will face tank any 5/10 with t2 fitting by sacrificing dps and applied dps to the ranges needed although projecting 60 km with hams is easy if fit right)


3. the real problem.
People wanting to kill you in site. Let me give you some insight, if a BS or a tengu is doing a DED site in space imma gonna go out of my way to find you and kill you, after all you are an easy target most of the time, and then there's the odd dude trying to scare you out of the site, they launch probes and come on your site not prepared to fight but to steal the site (other t3s or the hac of choice for the rats mostly)


Best ship for mitigating this issue : GILA, no one barges in alone in a gila unless he has lots of friends nearby. Why you ask? Buffer tank, selectable fully applied dps (and lots of it), and the main site crashers t3ds and recon ships are scared of you (that doesn't mean one can't tackle you til their friends arrive)

Running sites in a gila is quite easy too, the tank and dps can be quite good especially for serpentis and angel rats,

My choice is obvious and the travel fit with a mwd cloak gets through gate camps just fine. but at the end of the day if you run at the slightest increase in local T3s will serve you just fine ( tengu is the best of em for pve Lol )
Altair Taurus
#22 - 2015-12-01 12:41:36 UTC
Should we assume combat sites in low-sec and null-sec are not for soloists? Well, because they are easy to find and kill by local pirates etc. That's another reason to stick to high-sec but that is not very good for EVE gameplay at all...
Lan Wang
African Atomic.
Dreadnought Diplomacy.
#23 - 2015-12-01 12:44:30 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
Should we assume combat sites in low-sec and null-sec are not for soloists? Well, because they are easy to find and kill by local pirates etc. That's another reason to stick to high-sec but that is not very good for EVE gameplay at all...


are you scared of the naughty pirates?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Daku Otsito
Otsito Response Team
#24 - 2015-12-01 13:01:49 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
Should we assume combat sites in low-sec and null-sec are not for soloists? Well, because they are easy to find and kill by local pirates etc. That's another reason to stick to high-sec but that is not very good for EVE gameplay at all...


Au contraire my friend they are only for the soloist, no point in doing them with friends( not much payout for a fleet) but you need to keep in mind that pvp will be forced upon you and either like it or deal with it :)
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#25 - 2015-12-01 14:03:56 UTC
Daku Otsito wrote:
Best ship for mitigating this issue : GILA, no one barges in alone in a gila unless he has lots of friends nearby. Why you ask? Buffer tank, selectable fully applied dps (and lots of it), and the main site crashers t3ds and recon ships are scared of you (that doesn't mean one can't tackle you til their friends arrive)

Are you less vulnerable in a GIla than an Ishtar? Or is this simply your personal experiences?
All I can add to that is my son would much rather take on a Gila specifically due it's drones bonus to mediums only and limited bay space. The Ishtar with larger drones bay and bonuses of some sort to all drones and not just mediums does make them a more difficult target at least in his assessment of the situation.
Either way he has no trouble taking on either when he is solo and manages a fairly high kill percentage for his efforts.

Ignoring all that I wonder if the Gila will remain such a strong ship after the December update and it's loss of a low slot and some cpu? Given that the release is just a week or so away it may be worth waiting until after before considering a switch to the Gila.
Altair Taurus
#26 - 2015-12-01 14:14:56 UTC
Well, PVP is not an option if you running DEDs in PVE fit...you are defenseless, so to speak!
Lan Wang
African Atomic.
Dreadnought Diplomacy.
#27 - 2015-12-01 14:18:46 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
Well, PVP is not an option if you running DEDs in PVE fit...you are defenseless, so to speak!


warp out like normal people do?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Altair Taurus
#28 - 2015-12-01 14:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
Yes, but in effect sometimes long hard work to travel in unfriendly environment to scan many signatures is fruitless because finally you get no loot and those guys simply steal your job...
Lan Wang
African Atomic.
Dreadnought Diplomacy.
#29 - 2015-12-01 14:53:24 UTC
doesnt that happen in highsec too? isnt it worse in highsec???

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Altair Taurus
#30 - 2015-12-01 14:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
In high-sec you rather cannot be podded in such scenario and loot is worth much less. Of course in high-sec sometimes grinders running Guristas Dens in a row can receive an escalation to DED 5/10 located in high-sec.
Lan Wang
African Atomic.
Dreadnought Diplomacy.
#31 - 2015-12-01 15:04:23 UTC
you shouldnt get podded in lowsec, and null, well use a blank clone, risk vs reward, risk more get paid more

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Daku Otsito
Otsito Response Team
#32 - 2015-12-01 16:17:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Daku Otsito
Donnachadh wrote:
Daku Otsito wrote:
Best ship for mitigating this issue : GILA, no one barges in alone in a gila unless he has lots of friends nearby. Why you ask? Buffer tank, selectable fully applied dps (and lots of it), and the main site crashers t3ds and recon ships are scared of you (that doesn't mean one can't tackle you til their friends arrive)

Are you less vulnerable in a GIla than an Ishtar? Or is this simply your personal experiences?
All I can add to that is my son would much rather take on a Gila specifically due it's drones bonus to mediums only and limited bay space. The Ishtar with larger drones bay and bonuses of some sort to all drones and not just mediums does make them a more difficult target at least in his assessment of the situation.
Either way he has no trouble taking on either when he is solo and manages a fairly high kill percentage for his efforts.

Ignoring all that I wonder if the Gila will remain such a strong ship after the December update and it's loss of a low slot and some cpu? Given that the release is just a week or so away it may be worth waiting until after before considering a switch to the Gila.


Well personal experience I must say however let me tell you that the Gilaa drone Bay is bigger than the ishtar s(5 flights of useful drones) , Navy medium drones track anything and ofc the rapid lights do the rest. On the ishtar the heavies are useless and lights do little damage but in a gila you have 600 dps unloaded to anyone barr frigates. Also just a disclaimer I run angel 5/10 with a mwd and point fitted gila and most times a neut too.

[Gila,surprise mother... ]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Domination Explosive Deflection Field
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II




Valkyrie II x2'Augmented' Hammerhead x2'Augmented' Valkyrie x2

Fitting tool is old on phone but with the new mwds works just fine
Ichygo Kurosaki
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-12-01 16:54:04 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
doesnt that happen in highsec too? isnt it worse in highsec???



Well the initial den, hideaway, refuge is open to all. If I warp to a den and someone is already there, I just warp out and go find another, its common courtesy. They are plenty, and not hard to find. Sure you get the occasional troll that will crash anyone's battle, but those are rare. The expeditions are few and far between, and are in pvp area's. I can't really figure out the logic in it but , it makes for a frustrating game.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#34 - 2015-12-02 14:54:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Daku Otsito wrote:
Well personal experience I must say however let me tell you that the Gilaa drone Bay is bigger than the ishtar s(5 flights of useful drones) , Navy medium drones track anything and ofc the rapid lights do the rest. On the ishtar the heavies are useless and lights do little damage but in a gila you have 600 dps unloaded to anyone barr frigates. Also just a disclaimer I run angel 5/10 with a mwd and point fitted gila and most times a neut too.

You like the GIla all is good with that but I cannot let these pass without comment because they are essentially lies.

Let us start with your failed idea that the drones bay on the Gila is bigger.
Gila drones bay is 100m3, Ishtar is 375m3. SInce you specifically state "5 flights of useful drones" you are talking about mediums well the Ishtar can hold 7, yes sir that is seven flights of those same medium drones and still have bay space left for a flight of lights. And the answer is yes that is after compensating for the 5 drone flight size in the Ishtar. The Ishtar can carry a 4 full flights of lights, 4 full flights of mediums and still have 75m3 of unused bay space for what ever you want to put in it. But getting to some more practical drones load outs the Ishtar can carry 1 flight of lights, 1 of mediums, plus choose any of these options (2 flights of sentries or 2 flights of heavies or 2 gecko) and still has at least 10m3 of empty bay space. I point out that due to bandwidth limitations the Gila cannot use sentries, heavies or the Gecko. So in the end we get back to the simple fact that you like so many others have fallen into the Gila is better because bay space trap when the simple reality is that the Ishtar has the Gila beat hands down when it comes to bay space and being able to vary your drones load outs to meet a specific set of circumstances.

Getting to the damage. There is very little difference in DPS output between a flight of mediums in the GIla and a flight of mediums in an Ishtar, CCP was very careful to balance the GIla's bonus to insure it stayed that way. Even if there is a difference in total DPS using mediums with the Ishtar you simply switch to a pair of Gecko, something the Gila cannot do due to band width and bay space limitations, and the drones DPS alone from the Ishtar is greater than the total a Gila can produce. The Gecko can handle anything and everything that comes their way including the frigates, but what the hell you always have lights in the bay for those.

Faction drones are not relevant in any way when comparing the Ishtar and Gila since the Ishtar can use those same faction drones and the Gila has no special bonuses to those faction drones.

So we end up exactly where I started this one. If you like the Gila better then fly it because what you like is the only thing that matters. However when you post lies about useful bay space between the two you can expect that some one will call you out for it and in this case I am that person.
Daku Otsito
Otsito Response Team
#35 - 2015-12-02 15:37:43 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Daku Otsito wrote:
Well personal experience I must say however let me tell you that the Gilaa drone Bay is bigger than the ishtar s(5 flights of useful drones) , Navy medium drones track anything and ofc the rapid lights do the rest. On the ishtar the heavies are useless and lights do little damage but in a gila you have 600 dps unloaded to anyone barr frigates. Also just a disclaimer I run angel 5/10 with a mwd and point fitted gila and most times a neut too.

You like the GIla all is good with that but I cannot let these pass without comment because they are essentially lies.

Let us start with your failed idea that the drones bay on the Gila is bigger.
Gila drones bay is 100m3, Ishtar is 375m3. SInce you specifically state "5 flights of useful drones" you are talking about mediums well the Ishtar can hold 7, yes sir that is seven flights of those same medium drones and still have bay space left for a flight of lights. And the answer is yes that is after compensating for the 5 drone flight size in the Ishtar. The Ishtar can carry a 4 full flights of lights, 4 full flights of mediums and still have 75m3 of unused bay space for what ever you want to put in it. But getting to some more practical drones load outs the Ishtar can carry 1 flight of lights, 1 of mediums, 2 flights of sentry or heavies or 2 gecko and still has 10m3 of empty bay space. I point out that due to bandwidth limitations the Gila cannot use sentries, heavies or the Gecko. So in the end we get back to the simple fact that you like so many others have fallen into the Gila is better because bay space trap when the simple reality is that the Ishtar has the Gila beat hands down when it comes to bay space and being able to vary your drones load outs to meet a specific set of circumstances.

Getting to the damage. There is very little difference in DPS output between a flight of mediums in the GIla and a flight of mediums in an Ishtar, CCP was very careful to balance the GIla's bonus to insure it stayed that way. Even if there is a difference in total DPS using mediums with the Ishtar you simply switch to a pair of Gecko, something the Gila cannot do due to band width and bay space limitations, and the drones DPS alone from the Ishtar is greater than the total a Gila can produce. The Gecko can handle anything and everything that comes their way including the frigates, but what the hell you always have lights in the bay for those.

Faction drones are not relevant in any way when comparing the Ishtar and Gila since the Ishtar can use those same faction drones and the Gila has no special bonuses to those faction drones.

So we end up exactly where I started this one. If you like the Gila better then fly it because what you like is the only thing that matters. However when you post lies about useful bay space between the two you can expect that some one will call you out for it and in this case I am that person.




Let me try to address your comments :D

1st ishtar drone bonuses :

Quote:
Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage
10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
5000m bonus to Drone operation range
5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty


If you understand them it means you don't use mediums cause you lose half the bonuses and you will have 300dps from them with 3 dda (350 with 4 infiltrators taken as reference) . Fact is if you fly the ship you don't generally use mediums unless some fringe situations.


now anyone and i mean anyone running a DED site(cause that what we are discussing BTW ) has at least the flavour of heavies and sentries for the rat type of the area so thats 250m3 gone and that's if you don't take spare at all which is highly unlikely. you have 125 left and most likely you want lights in your ship so you get at most 2 medium flights (usually 1) that are very killable with 50% more HP than normal VS 500% more Hp per drone of the gila (PVP fact , you don't shoot 20k ehp drones with 50m sig radius when there's 10 of em)



Quote:
Getting to the damage. There is very little difference in DPS output between a flight of mediums in the GIla and a flight of mediums in an Ishtar, CCP was very careful to balance the GIla's bonus to insure it stayed that way. Even if there is a difference in total DPS using mediums with the Ishtar you simply switch to a pair of Gecko, something the Gila cannot do due to band width and bay space limitations, and the drones DPS alone from the Ishtar is greater than the total a Gila can produce. The Gecko can handle anything and everything that comes their way including the frigates, but what the hell you always have lights in the bay for those.


There is ALOT of difference from a flight of mediums of an ishtar vs a gila 350 vs 560 dps (you can EFT, reference are infiltrator II s)

Let me address the geckos too , yea they track the same 0.85 vs 0.96 of an infiltrator but they are 30% slower and still at 100 mill a pop they aren't as often used.

also don't forget about the rapid lights, that's another 200 dps with awesome application at point range

to wrap it up, by no means is the ishtar a slouch on the PVP side of things it's just that on my experience it falls short of the gila for fighting back a site crasher and for the situation at hand gila is better.

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