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need for 400,000 m3 general hauler.

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Author
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#1 - 2015-09-03 19:38:27 UTC
there is a huge gap in the hauler line up, a hauler with 400,000 m3 cargo capacity a would fill that gap. it would be nice if you could fit for hauling capacity vs tank with 400,000 m3 being the hauling fit and maybe 250,000 m3 being the tank fit.

Distrubution of mass, velocity and hauling capacity for racial variants would mirror the freighter class.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Helia Tranquilis
Confused Bunnies Inc
#2 - 2015-09-03 19:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Helia Tranquilis
inb4 Orca and this has been suggested several times

At least that's what's been taught to say. 100k m3 + 40k m3 fleet hangar when anti-tanked. It and T2 haulers must do. Never ask for new ships. Adapt and always use Redfrog.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#3 - 2015-09-03 19:57:17 UTC
I used to be quite positively vocal about this in the past before CCP changed freighters. However, with my Providence with 3 Istabs, I do not necessarily see the need for such a freighter anymore.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Media freak
His Majesty's Privateers
#4 - 2015-09-03 20:04:40 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
there is a huge gap in the hauler line up, a hauler with 400,000 m3 cargo capacity a would fill that gap. it would be nice if you could fit for hauling capacity vs tank with 400,000 m3 being the hauling fit and maybe 250,000 m3 being the tank fit.

Distrubution of mass, velocity and hauling capacity for racial variants would mirror the freighter class.



tank fit freighter fit what you are looking for or cargo fit jump freighters.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#5 - 2015-09-03 20:22:55 UTC
Helia Tranquilis wrote:
inb4 Orca and this has been suggested several times

At least that's what's been taught to say. 100k m3 + 40k m3 fleet hangar when anti-tanked. It and T2 haulers must do. Never ask for new ships. Adapt and always use Redfrog.


You can choose to not ask for what you want thats your business. ill keep asking for things i think would benefit not just myself but the game as a whole.

As ive said before i always love it when someone thinks they are arguing against my idea when in fact they are actually improving upon my argument in support of the concept.

Why do people use orcas as general haulers, they certainly arent set up to do the job well since you cannot put general goods in a maintenance bay and the remaining hauling capacity is divided into two compartments so it is inefficient for general hauling as well, which means as general haulers orcas are grossly inefficient.

ANSWER: because the game has no 400,000 m3 hauler class so they are boot-strapping, the best sub-par solution available to them.

SOLUTION: add a 400,000 me general hauler to the game !

PS thanks for the orca example !

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

M1k3y Koontz
Social Infrastructure
Stay Feral
#6 - 2015-09-03 20:30:42 UTC
Maybe I'm missing something, but there's a class of ships called the Freighter.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#7 - 2015-09-03 20:34:41 UTC
Media freak wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
there is a huge gap in the hauler line up, a hauler with 400,000 m3 cargo capacity a would fill that gap. it would be nice if you could fit for hauling capacity vs tank with 400,000 m3 being the hauling fit and maybe 250,000 m3 being the tank fit.

Distrubution of mass, velocity and hauling capacity for racial variants would mirror the freighter class.



tank fit freighter fit what you are looking for or cargo fit jump freighters.


No, actually the align time difference and the warp speed difference would be substantial between this and my suggestion, since i basically created a hauler roughly half the size if the freighter class.

I think perhaps my 'mirror' comment wasnt clear i didnt mean they would be freighter sized just that the largest of this class would be Caldari, the smallest the Minmatar and they relevant stats would be distributed in a similar fashion to the freighter class.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

M1k3y Koontz
Social Infrastructure
Stay Feral
#8 - 2015-09-03 20:36:34 UTC
So you want baby freighters?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#9 - 2015-09-03 20:39:26 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but there's a class of ships called the Freighter.


Yes, and they are huge, have slow align times, low velocities and slow warp speeds. It is the reason you wont find many people carrying 10,000 m3 of cargo around in a freighter when smaller haulers get the job done much faster.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#10 - 2015-09-03 20:40:53 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
So you want baby freighters?


I didnt introduce a title for the class but i guess you could call them that.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2015-09-03 21:09:51 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but there's a class of ships called the Freighter.


Yes, and they are huge, have slow align times, low velocities and slow warp speeds. It is the reason you wont find many people carrying 10,000 m3 of cargo around in a freighter when smaller haulers get the job done much faster.



But a freighter has a cargohold of what, 500km3 base?

Why the hell would a 400km3 base freighter class make any sense at all?
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#12 - 2015-09-03 21:30:06 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I used to be quite positively vocal about this in the past before CCP changed freighters. However, with my Providence with 3 Istabs, I do not necessarily see the need for such a freighter anymore.


Simce this discussion is about mid sized load haulers i feel justified in the following example....

Load: 200,000 m3

jumps: 4 each direction.

1. your istab provi is carrying less than half its capacity. (inefficient for this load).

2. Your provi cannot fit rigs, has twice the size and mass of the new class, so your round trip time for this load will be 'crawl' speed by comparison to the new class.

3. New class must give up capacity for round trip speed so its capacity is now, 275,000 m3 (efficient for this load).

In short, it doesnt matter how you set up your provi for mid sized loads it will always lose and by a considerable margin.

Equally important though, for large loads >400,000 m3 you win automatically, since even the fully rigged and modded Caldari variant tops out at 400,000 m3.

Lastly, and also equally imporant, for small loads the T1 and T2 small haulers will always best this new class in round trip delivery times as they should.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#13 - 2015-09-03 21:35:17 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but there's a class of ships called the Freighter.


Yes, and they are huge, have slow align times, low velocities and slow warp speeds. It is the reason you wont find many people carrying 10,000 m3 of cargo around in a freighter when smaller haulers get the job done much faster.



But a freighter has a cargohold of what, 500km3 base?

Why the hell would a 400km3 base freighter class make any sense at all?


I wasnt clear, the 400.000 m3 would include the hull bonus, mods and rigs to achieve this capacity on the Caldari variant, it is the absolute max. The absolute max of the caldari freighter is above 1.2 million m3.

Sorry about the confusion.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#14 - 2015-09-04 00:30:41 UTC
Looks like OP want a JF without the jump drive. Just ignore the jump drive and use a JF!
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#15 - 2015-09-04 01:03:44 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Sooooooooo...

You want "baby"Freighter that...

- hauls more than an Orca, but less than a Freighter

- aligns faster than a Freighter loaded with Inertial Stabilizers (for reference, an I-Stab Freighter takes about 20 to 25 seconds to align... a triple-plated battleship takes about 12 to 15 seconds)
NOTE: without using the MWD-pulse trick, Orcas have the same align times as "naked" Freighters (about 35 seconds with max skills).


As long as you are not proposing that this mini-freighter also be able to field a tank equal to a tanked Orca (200k+) while having the proposed max cargo capacity... the quicker align time is really my only gripe.

Hell... even Deep Space Transports have long align times... about 12 to 15 seconds.

edit: looking at the numbers...
- if an I-Stab Freighter (with a cargo capacity of ~500-600k) takes about 20 to 25 seconds to align...
- a MWD Orca (with a capacity of about 90 to 140k) takes about 35 seconds to align (10 seconds with the MWD trick)...
- and a DST (with a capacity of ~62k) takes about 12 to 15 seconds to align (10 seconds with the MWD trick)...

- where does this new mini-freighter fit in? There are only small differences in align times relative to the massive differences in hauling capacities.
And in warp the Orca is just as slow as a Freighter (2 AU/sec compared to 1.4) while the DST moves at cruiser speed (3.3 AU/sec).

I guess I am not seeing why you need a new ship. Freighters kinda already do what you are asking.

And to counter your point of "if you are not carrying max capacity, you are being inefficient"...
this would only be true if you are using actual fuel (and thus you need to carry max capacity to make the most money).
In EVE "time" is the only thing of actual value... and an I-stab freighter wastes only a relatively small amount more time than the "smaller options" that currently exist while having VASTLY more cargo space.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
Cauldron of Ecstasy
#16 - 2015-09-04 03:52:46 UTC
Here's an idea - rework the orca to be a better over all hauler.

Why introduce a new ship - when we already have one that just needs some love.
I'd almost go as far as - stripping all the bays

Give it a base 75-100k m3 cargo, 250-300 SMA, 50k fleet (remove ore bay) and give it a new speciality bay that fits Ore Minerals and PI materials

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#17 - 2015-09-04 05:14:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
ShahFluffers wrote:
Sooooooooo...

You want "baby"Freighter that...

- hauls more than an Orca, but less than a Freighter

- aligns faster than a Freighter loaded with Inertial Stabilizers (for reference, an I-Stab Freighter takes about 20 to 25 seconds to align... a triple-plated battleship takes about 12 to 15 seconds)
NOTE: without using the MWD-pulse trick, Orcas have the same align times as "naked" Freighters (about 35 seconds with max skills).


As long as you are not proposing that this mini-freighter also be able to field a tank equal to a tanked Orca (200k+) while having the proposed max cargo capacity... the quicker align time is really my only gripe.

Hell... even Deep Space Transports have long align times... about 12 to 15 seconds.

edit: looking at the numbers...
- if an I-Stab Freighter (with a cargo capacity of ~500-600k) takes about 20 to 25 seconds to align...
- a MWD Orca (with a capacity of about 90 to 140k) takes about 35 seconds to align (10 seconds with the MWD trick)...
- and a DST (with a capacity of ~62k) takes about 12 to 15 seconds to align (10 seconds with the MWD trick)...

- where does this new mini-freighter fit in? There are only small differences in align times relative to the massive differences in hauling capacities.
And in warp the Orca is just as slow as a Freighter (2 AU/sec compared to 1.4) while the DST moves at cruiser speed (3.3 AU/sec).

I guess I am not seeing why you need a new ship. Freighters kinda already do what you are asking.

And to counter your point of "if you are not carrying max capacity, you are being inefficient"...
this would only be true if you are using actual fuel (and thus you need to carry max capacity to make the most money).
In EVE "time" is the only thing of actual value... and an I-stab freighter wastes only a relatively small amount more time than the "smaller options" that currently exist while having VASTLY more cargo space.


1. Yes, more than the generalized support ship [Orca] that by design is obviously not intended to be a dedicated hauler and the behemoth and specialized hauling class, the freighters.

2. You can put stabs in a freighter, why not the baby version. As to orca align times those ships are, i've always imagined, packed with components to carry out its various support jobs, as ive always been perplexed why it has such a long align time given its size.

3. My OP states, "capacity vs tank". Someone with as much experience playing EVE and forum posting as you have im confused why you're confused as to what i meant. Buy because you brought it up no, as with any ship you must pay for tank by giving up primary ability, which in this case means you lose capacity to tank.

4. The orca is not a dedicated hauler it really shouldnt be in a discussion about dedicated haulers as ships that haul as part of a swiss army knife of capabilities must rightly be punished for being arguably one of the most generalized and versatile ships in the game and its stats back up that sentiment, so i think CCP devs agree.

Even DST are not truly dedicated haulers. They dont get deep space tough via mods and rigs alone but by design so DSTs serve two masters hauling and toughness. A dedicated hauler on the otherhand serves only one master and that is hauling. Can you make your sigil, a dedicated hauler, tougher sure and i have, my sigil is one tough nut to crack for a small hauler but it has taken a big hit to its true and sole master: hauling capacity.

5. The MWD trick isnt a legitimate ship statistic it is a player contrived use of game mechanics and if we start down the road of every trick someone can do with a ship as a legitimate ship stat we will never get anywhere in this discussion since you can use a T1 hauler to bump ships as they undock to make those ships viable targets for scanning or destruction but countimg this as a legitimate balancing stat for T1 haulers would be a mistake.

6. As to the provi discussion just read it, i discuss in detail how baby freighters fit in between freighters and the smaller dedicated haulers.

7. ive discussed that neither the orca nor the DSTs are dedicated haulers so their stats. shouldnt be mixed in a discussion with the dedicated hauler series. Also you dismiss the difference between 2AU warp speed and 3.3 AU like it was nothing really but id die for a base 3.3 AU warp speed on my charon.

8. About inefficiency. Whatever you can do in a istab freighter for mid sized loads the baby freighter would do it significantly better. My current round trip is 18 jumps his istab freighter would take a lot longer to complete this task than the baby freighter would.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#18 - 2015-09-04 05:25:13 UTC
Amarisen Gream wrote:
Here's an idea - rework the orca to be a better over all hauler.

Why introduce a new ship - when we already have one that just needs some love.
I'd almost go as far as - stripping all the bays

Give it a base 75-100k m3 cargo, 250-300 SMA, 50k fleet (remove ore bay) and give it a new speciality bay that fits Ore Minerals and PI materials


1. the Orca has flight characteristics near identical to a freighter.

2. The orca is a mining support ship first and foremost it will never properly work as a hauler it can haul but game balance prohibits making into a ship that would rival a baby freighter in hauling ability because game balance wont allow it.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#19 - 2015-09-04 05:29:43 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Looks like OP want a JF without the jump drive. Just ignore the jump drive and use a JF!

i'll let you fly a 7 billion isk ship around highsec, might i suggest your first flight include uedama.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2015-09-04 05:52:43 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
In short, it doesnt matter how you set up your provi for mid sized loads it will always lose and by a considerable margin.

Real ships always lose to dream ones, yeah Roll
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