These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Marauders Need a Damage Bonus While Stuck in Bastion
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#41 - 2015-09-04 03:09:13 UTC
What Marauders actually need is to be better outside of Bastion. Of course so do BS in general.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2015-09-04 03:23:43 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned.

It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy.


The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not.

The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that.


Isn't anyone who fly amarr caps at least close to it tho?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#43 - 2015-09-04 04:17:31 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Isn't anyone who fly amarr caps at least close to it tho?

Most experienced combat pilots aren't that far off Marauders.
There are three reasons you see 100 man tengu fleets and not 100 man Vulture or Golem fleets.
1. Tengu's are T3. Meaning training for a Tengu covers several ship types.
2. Tengu's are OP. Being both Cruisers and OP in the age of cruisers makes them doubly OP.
3. Tengu's have been OP for years meaning people have had plenty of time to train into them.

Marauders and CS are both recently decent, and I'll remind people that there is at least 1 low sec fleet already running a CS Doctrine.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2015-09-04 06:05:44 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
1. Tengu's are T3. Meaning training for a Tengu covers several ship types.

What do you mean?

I would like to point out that if you count out core skills to 5 as "obligatory" for every ship in the game (and assume you have them before sitting in anything not T1), then fleet T3Cs are easier to train into than HACs.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#45 - 2015-09-04 07:04:20 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
unidenify wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
It's highly unlikely that you're going to see any battleship exceed the damage of the Federate, Imperial, State or Tribal ships.


strange thing about a missile BS is that almost all BS do a exactly same raw dps when pilot have level 5 BS skill.

Only Barghest and Typhoon Fleet would do more raw dps

Barghest > Typhoon Fleet > Golem = SNI = RNI = Raven = Typhoon

*assume all have same number of BCS

In my opinion, Golem don't really need to do a more raw dps than Barghest or Typhoon Fleet since it has an excellent bonus for range and super TP to ensure that it can apply full of its dps against target.

What Marauder should have is
Strong Tank
Excellent application

For this, I consider it is fair that Marauder do less raw dps than Pirate BS.


In this case, I'd like to follow up on your T2 Bastion idea and give the Marauders some cap warfare resistance so they can actually use their tanks longer than one bastion cycle when under heavy neut pressure.


I am admiting that I like to see some form of cap warfare resistance, but issue is balance.

Plus, there is modules that help with cap warfare resistance. (capacitor battery).
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2015-09-04 21:00:57 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Isn't anyone who fly amarr caps at least close to it tho?

Most experienced combat pilots aren't that far off Marauders.
There are three reasons you see 100 man tengu fleets and not 100 man Vulture or Golem fleets.
1. Tengu's are T3. Meaning training for a Tengu covers several ship types.
2. Tengu's are OP. Being both Cruisers and OP in the age of cruisers makes them doubly OP.
3. Tengu's have been OP for years meaning people have had plenty of time to train into them.

Marauders and CS are both recently decent, and I'll remind people that there is at least 1 low sec fleet already running a CS Doctrine.


Ever since the T3 subsystem nerf to 5%/level, Vultures have more DPS, more EHP, greater range, and the ability to fit a MMJD. They're cheaper and don't cause SP loss when killed. The only reason to fly a Tengu fleet over a Vulture fleet is SP.
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2015-09-04 22:14:29 UTC
Cause t2 pulse lasers with close range ammo (conflag) at 56 km optimal with 1179 dps isn't enough....

Marauders does most definately not need a damage bonus while in bastion... The range + resists bonus is much more than enough

So I say no.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2015-09-04 22:44:36 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned.

It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy.


The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not.

The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that.



So?

Like we (at least those who can't) wouldn't dive into these asap.

SP balancing is worse than isk balancing and that got us into a SUPER mess. Pun intended.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2015-09-04 23:39:56 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Yes but in the meantime for everyone else not having a cap fleet to drop, is utterly boned.

It's a bad idea - I understand why you think they need help but the problem is how hard they scale with bling, drugs and links. It wouldn't be healthy.


The SP requirements of Marauders will prevent extremely large scale use of them. There's a reason 100+ man Tengu fleets are a thing and 100+ man Vulture fleets are not.

The last time I looked up these numbers, about a year ago, it was around 15-17% of characters that even had the SP to undock a Marauder, and these numbers were heavily biased towards the Golem, which due to missiles is the least likely to be good in large fleets. A Marauder fleet will require a unified doctrine of everyone in the same ship, and if you're looking at the Paladin or Vargur you're facing the fact that maybe 3-4% of the playerbase can even undock the thing, and the number with the SP to actually fly it effectively will necessarily be even lower than that.

Looks at the number of Ishtar pilots before the HAC balance pass, looks at the number of Ishtar pilots now.
I don't think balancing around SP is a valid tactic for making something OP.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#50 - 2015-09-05 00:43:22 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
What Marauders actually need is to be better outside of Bastion. Of course so do BS in general.




Gonna say this. I was on the fence about BS flight (learned to hate it over a year of almost straight bash ops). Something about BS i didn't like really. Had this feeling for years tbh. This was even before all the balance repasses that spawned all the meta's that had BS' fall into disfavor.

Been giving a kronos a go of late and going now this, this I could like. When in bastion. This a kronos...it and paladin by and large fight to not be least favored marauder in general. Hell when looking for a pve fit I found some eventually to serve as a base to my fit. Invariably in the threads was the obligatory...."....but you may want to try vargur instead" post.
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#51 - 2015-09-05 02:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Sandrilla Sastrum
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
Cause t2 pulse lasers with close range ammo (conflag) at 56 km optimal with 1179 dps isn't enough....

Marauders does most definately not need a damage bonus while in bastion... The range + resists bonus is much more than enough

So I say no.


Your objective is late and I don't care anymore cause I'm going into Dreads. Bastion is fail!
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2015-09-05 04:05:19 UTC
As a Marauder pilot myself, I'm going to have to say that more dps and/or cap resistance would be OP.

However, I do agree that Marauders need to be balanced without Bastion, but only in a manner to make them more fleet viable, thus encouraging the use of Bastion when solo.
Otherwise, no one will use Bastion.

My suggestion

1) give Marauders higher sensor strength, comparable to that of other t2 BSs. With the introduction of pirate hulls and rebalance of t1 hulls, the power of Marauders isn't all that intense anymore.

2) Make their local rep bonus also apply to received remote reps. The is counter balanced by their HP which is natively lower than that of other BS hulls, thus further encouraging no bastion in fleets and using bastion when solo.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#53 - 2015-09-05 04:58:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Joe Risalo wrote:

1) give Marauders higher sensor strength, comparable to that of other t2 BSs. With the introduction of pirate hulls and rebalance of t1 hulls, the power of Marauders isn't all that intense anymore.



This I'd see no issue with this. Was never really sure why CCP had in place so in the first place. Its not like in pvp fc's beg for Non bonused ecm ships to pack em just in case of kronos rush. It be a bonused ecm boat that jams, well, everything damn good if skills and mods there and RNG is loving them that day.

Looking back before bastion....PVe wise well this was why I have/had tengu. I have its sensor strength pegged to where the only time I get jammed is rare as hell. Its RNG rolling that hard as hell number on d100 (or 2 d10's...pen and peer game geek in the past here lol). It has always been my gurista mission runner if giving anything else a go at the time. Kinetic bonus and weak kinetic resists of rats and all to add to the fun.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-09-05 05:33:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Zan Shiro wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

1) give Marauders higher sensor strength, comparable to that of other t2 BSs. With the introduction of pirate hulls and rebalance of t1 hulls, the power of Marauders isn't all that intense anymore.



This I'd see no issue with this. Was never really sure why CCP had in place so in the first place. Its not like in pvp fc's beg for Non bonused ecm ships to pack em just in case of kronos rush. It be a bonused ecm boat that jams, well, everything damn good if skills and mods there and RNG is loving them that day.

Looking back before bastion....PVe wise well this was why I have/had tengu. I have its sensor strength pegged to where the only time I get jammed is rare as hell. Its RNG rolling that hard as hell number on d100 (or 2 d10's...pen and peer game geek in the past here lol). It has always been my gurista mission runner if giving anything else a go at the time. Kinetic bonus and weak kinetic resists of rats and all to add to the fun.


When Marauders were first introduced, they were powerhouses and no sub cap could compare.
However, CCP introduced them specifically as PVE boats and gave them low sensor strength and massive sigs to keep them out of PVP.
However, this made them less effective than T1s in PVE, thus the status quo remained that way until T3Cs were introduced and Pirate hulls were made more powerful.
Then, you finally had something more powerful than a t1 at PVE.

While I do like Bastion, it was nothing more than a bandaid to cover the gaping cavity that is the weakness of the Marauders.
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2015-09-07 21:06:37 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
Cause t2 pulse lasers with close range ammo (conflag) at 56 km optimal with 1179 dps isn't enough....

Marauders does most definately not need a damage bonus while in bastion... The range + resists bonus is much more than enough

So I say no.


Your objective is late and I don't care anymore cause I'm going into Dreads. Bastion is fail!


The only fail thing about this entire thread is your foolish belief in what Marauders should be.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#56 - 2015-09-07 23:51:29 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
As a Marauder pilot myself, I'm going to have to say that more dps and/or cap resistance would be OP.

However, I do agree that Marauders need to be balanced without Bastion, but only in a manner to make them more fleet viable, thus encouraging the use of Bastion when solo.
Otherwise, no one will use Bastion.

My suggestion

1) give Marauders higher sensor strength, comparable to that of other t2 BSs. With the introduction of pirate hulls and rebalance of t1 hulls, the power of Marauders isn't all that intense anymore.

2) Make their local rep bonus also apply to received remote reps. The is counter balanced by their HP which is natively lower than that of other BS hulls, thus further encouraging no bastion in fleets and using bastion when solo.


I do like this idea

I remember someone suggest that Bastion also increase Sensor strength in purpose to make it difficult to probe down
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#57 - 2015-09-08 05:24:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
They're built for strong local tanks and for weapons projection. This makes them really only useful in the small gang fighting, but virtually a deathtrap in encounters with larger groups. Raw DPS is the Pirate ships' expertise. CCP already made the mistake of trying to force a non-PvP oriented ship class into PvP, fortunately for them it did not ruin there ability in their historical role and in fact somehow improved it in many ways. They will always be very niche in PvP. This does not make them weak, just very niche. They don't need that kind of help.

Sensor strength is, in opinion, a far better goal to improving things for them without making them too powerful. Though, they do need to be especially weak to capacitor warfare, I feel.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Zapp McDouche
Black Spot on Parchment
#58 - 2015-09-08 09:12:10 UTC
The only thing marauders need is a small increase in cargo bay size and a tiny upgrade in cpu and power grid.
Bigger drone bay would been bad ass but it might make them overpowered.
RcTamiya
Magister Mortalis.
#59 - 2015-09-08 09:15:26 UTC
Zapp McDouche wrote:
The only thing marauders need is a small increase in cargo bay size and a tiny upgrade in cpu and power grid.
Bigger drone bay would been bad ass but it might make them overpowered.



slightly better cap recharge, so it gets them equally balanced on each other too
Thron Legacy
White Zulu
Scorpion Federation
#60 - 2015-09-09 15:19:47 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
very moderate 50% damage increase

I dont even