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CSMX - SUMMIT I

First post First post
Author
Circumstantial Evidence
#121 - 2015-10-04 01:38:37 UTC
I'm also concerned about this Tribute system. Paying players extra, for being where they are and doing what they decided is worth doing, doesn't seem necessary. If certain content does not seem "incentivized" enough already, maybe increase loot or payouts?

CCP Affinity wrote:
...we wanted a solution that captured all areas of space and one where people could be rewarded for doing the content they already do, in the place they already live.

I could make this "work" in a way that doesn't inject new isk to the ecomomy, but it's convoluted, I offer the idea but don't really like it: a new tax and refund scheme. Reduce rewards of loot or isk, depending on the dungeon being completed. Don't advertise that this happened in-game, like an Encounter Surveillance System penalty. Then pay back what was held back, as a lump sum Tribute at the end of the day.

Some people IRL enjoy and even set themselves up for lump sum payments, such as income tax refunds at the end of the year, letting their government treasuries hold onto their excess tax money, like a bank. And lotteries sell more tickets as the payout rises.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#122 - 2015-10-04 08:11:24 UTC
Well, we know the PvE plans at least... namely the Tribute system.

And I have to say, "thanks but it won't work, because Economy 101"

If you artificially increase the monetary mass, prices adjust to the rise and inflation kicks in until purchasing power diminishes.

If CCP tells the Market that PvErs are going to get a n% flat increase in their income, the Market will mark up prices to exploit that extra income. This will mess with the purchasing power of people who don't do combat PvE. Can a miner buy a replacement Exhumer if the price goes up proportionally to how much more are earning the Level 4 runners? Even worst, those who will be hit harder are the newer players, who don't have savings to afford higher prices and since they're running Level 1s and 2s can't compete with prices marked up to the extra income for Level 4s.

I know it's everything in the air and very theorical still, but whereas the concept is good (reward player activity) the implementation looks catastrophically wrong since it appears to ignore some essentials of human behavior. You shouldn't start with a square wheel and then "improve" it so it turns better...

I am a staunch highsec PvEr, and I don't need more ISK. What I need are the mechanics to leave a footprint in the universe and generate PvE content for me and other players, by playing my way.
per
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#123 - 2015-10-04 09:18:16 UTC
good:

  • no more t3d in small plexes (somehow good)
  • some webbing frigates in fw missions (though i would be more hardcore there)
  • suspect for neutrals upon entering fw plex (finally)


bad:

  • "Cagali - Have you guys considered tackling the problem of AFK frigates in plexes and warpcore stabbed ships orbiting beacons, etc?
  • Affinity - The changes with patrols will hopefully help with this."

    i dont see how this can help unless there is really lot of those patrols but then again active plexers will be probably screwed by that as well, there was many sugestions how to fix this afk/stabbed problem in plexes but patrols is it seems like, lets wait and see (i'll go cry quietly in the corner in the meantime)

  • no mention of broken tier system/LP payouts
  • no mention of OGB's - just wait till your new guys meet some linked fw/pirate guys, they will enjoy that fight for sure


Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#124 - 2015-10-04 09:51:17 UTC
What about low FW is not all lowsec... or maby it will be with the 4 way FW ?

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#125 - 2015-10-04 17:27:38 UTC
per wrote:
good:

  • no more t3d in small plexes (somehow good)
  • some webbing frigates in fw missions (though i would be more hardcore there)
  • suspect for neutrals upon entering fw plex (finally)


bad:

  • "Cagali - Have you guys considered tackling the problem of AFK frigates in plexes and warpcore stabbed ships orbiting beacons, etc?
  • Affinity - The changes with patrols will hopefully help with this."

    i dont see how this can help unless there is really lot of those patrols but then again active plexers will be probably screwed by that as well, there was many sugestions how to fix this afk/stabbed problem in plexes but patrols is it seems like, lets wait and see (i'll go cry quietly in the corner in the meantime)

  • no mention of broken tier system/LP payouts
  • no mention of OGB's - just wait till your new guys meet some linked fw/pirate guys, they will enjoy that fight for sure





OGB was mentioned in the balancing session.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#126 - 2015-10-04 18:36:36 UTC
As far as tributes, I have no idea what that is.

Are they just paying out more isk for all pve except mining?

Are they paying more isk if you do more pve in a single day?

They said it is like dust, but I don't play dust, so I am not sure what that means. Is there another post or or session that I should read to understand what this is?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#127 - 2015-10-04 18:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Cearain wrote:
As far as tributes, I have no idea what that is.

Are they just paying out more isk for all pve except mining?

Are they paying more isk if you do more pve in a single day?

They said it is like dust, but I don't play dust, so I am not sure what that means. Is there another post or or session that I should read to understand what this is?

It was mentioned in the FW/PvE session

Short version: First time you trigger dungeon completion (finish a mission, hack a site, clear an anomaly) you'll get a higher payout.

(actually they're rated 1 to 5, if you do a 5, you'll get the 5 payout immediately. If you do a 1, you'll get the 1 payout, then do a 5, you'll get the 5 payout, minus the 1 payout. Do another 5 and you won't get any other bonus)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#128 - 2015-10-04 19:57:26 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Cearain wrote:
As far as tributes, I have no idea what that is.

Are they just paying out more isk for all pve except mining?

Are they paying more isk if you do more pve in a single day?

They said it is like dust, but I don't play dust, so I am not sure what that means. Is there another post or or session that I should read to understand what this is?

It was mentioned in the FW/PvE session

Short version: First time you trigger dungeon completion (finish a mission, hack a site, clear an anomaly) you'll get a higher payout.

(actually they're rated 1 to 5, if you do a 5, you'll get the 5 payout immediately. If you do a 1, you'll get the 1 payout, then do a 5, you'll get the 5 payout, minus the 1 payout. Do another 5 and you won't get any other bonus)


So we get a splash of ISK when we complete the first dungeon of the day and the next ones pay nothing? Well, that certainly would prevent inflation due to inceased revenue for PvE as the increase would be neglectable.
Circumstantial Evidence
#129 - 2015-10-04 20:28:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Circumstantial Evidence
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Cearain wrote:
As far as tributes, I have no idea what that is.
It was mentioned in the FW/PvE session

Short version: First time you trigger dungeon completion (finish a mission, hack a site, clear an anomaly) you'll get a higher payout.

(actually they're rated 1 to 5, if you do a 5, you'll get the 5 payout immediately. If you do a 1, you'll get the 1 payout, then do a 5, you'll get the 5 payout, minus the 1 payout. Do another 5 and you won't get any other bonus)
OK, that's not so bad. Sounds like a carrot to entice players to log in, on a day when they wouldn't normally log in. I don't think I would care, as a long term player. But it might be motivational for newer players.

Edit
: it appears I misunderstood. If this is a bonus for every "dungeon" completion, I refer back to my comment in this previous post.
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#130 - 2015-10-04 20:30:46 UTC
Cearain wrote:
As far as tributes, I have no idea what that is.

Are they just paying out more isk for all pve except mining?

Are they paying more isk if you do more pve in a single day?

They said it is like dust, but I don't play dust, so I am not sure what that means. Is there another post or or session that I should read to understand what this is?


Dust has rotating dailies, one of which is usually "Win one battle" and rewards a key for their ridiculous lockboxes. Other objectives include killing X amount of people, getting X amount of assists, that kind of thing. Sounds like they want to do a similar thing with complexes in EVE, Complete X and get Y. No idea why they think it will work. If content isn't worth undocking for now, a handful of isk isn't going to change that fact. Sounds to me like a band-aid to cover the festering wound that is the rest of EVE's content while they continue to fix null.



Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#131 - 2015-10-04 20:44:38 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Cearain wrote:
As far as tributes, I have no idea what that is.

Are they just paying out more isk for all pve except mining?

Are they paying more isk if you do more pve in a single day?

They said it is like dust, but I don't play dust, so I am not sure what that means. Is there another post or or session that I should read to understand what this is?

It was mentioned in the FW/PvE session

Short version: First time you trigger dungeon completion (finish a mission, hack a site, clear an anomaly) you'll get a higher payout.

(actually they're rated 1 to 5, if you do a 5, you'll get the 5 payout immediately. If you do a 1, you'll get the 1 payout, then do a 5, you'll get the 5 payout, minus the 1 payout. Do another 5 and you won't get any other bonus)


So we get a splash of ISK when we complete the first dungeon of the day and the next ones pay nothing? Well, that certainly would prevent inflation due to inceased revenue for PvE as the increase would be neglectable.



Pay nothing extra. Just to make sure it's entirely clear.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#132 - 2015-10-05 06:41:51 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Cearain wrote:
As far as tributes, I have no idea what that is.

Are they just paying out more isk for all pve except mining?

Are they paying more isk if you do more pve in a single day?

They said it is like dust, but I don't play dust, so I am not sure what that means. Is there another post or or session that I should read to understand what this is?

It was mentioned in the FW/PvE session

Short version: First time you trigger dungeon completion (finish a mission, hack a site, clear an anomaly) you'll get a higher payout.

(actually they're rated 1 to 5, if you do a 5, you'll get the 5 payout immediately. If you do a 1, you'll get the 1 payout, then do a 5, you'll get the 5 payout, minus the 1 payout. Do another 5 and you won't get any other bonus)


So we get a splash of ISK when we complete the first dungeon of the day and the next ones pay nothing? Well, that certainly would prevent inflation due to inceased revenue for PvE as the increase would be neglectable.



Pay nothing extra. Just to make sure it's entirely clear.


And by "dungeon" they mean any PvE combat content, agent missions included, right?
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#133 - 2015-10-05 15:35:39 UTC
Thanks for the comments. I did read the minutes but I still didn't understand what they were talking about, but now I think I do.

So this is going to be a sort of 24 hour cycle. It rewards logging in one hour per day as opposed to logging in for hours once per week.

As for Faction War. There wasn't much there.

I am concerned about these patrols. I hope we don't go back to the days where npcs will be powerful and force militias to fit for pve, thus acting as a deterent to pvp. Also tweaking npcs has proven to be a red herring. It's the actual pvp players who need better tools to make the sov game pvp focused.

The four way war may invigorate faction war for the short term but none of the changes make the actual mechanics of fighting for sov more fun/pvp oriented.

It seems that ccp forgot many of things they said they wanted to do in faction war to make it more fun and pvp focused. E.g., such as timer rollbacks and better intel tools.

Its not just a matter of warp core stabs.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#134 - 2015-10-05 16:44:28 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
So did I understand it correctly? the fw goals from day 4:

-suspect timer for entering plex

-TD3s out of small plexes

-you can join fw even if your corp does not

-decouple fw and standing

-webbing npcs in missions

-4 way war

-Using fw as testing ground for more intelligent AI and engaging PVE generally all over eve(That is how I understand theese roaming patrols?)

-not change any fw mechanic untill the PVE test experiment is over.


If this is the case then at least I know why FW and PVE was in the same session Sad

I will give CCP the benefit of the doubt, and wait and see how this plays out. I am mildly disappointed and nervous though that at lot of the concerns that fw players and some of the CSM raised, is basically answered by CCP with " good point, but we won't look at it, because I am sure theese NPCs will solve this"(NPCs taking care of stabbed farmers Straight). I am not convinced this is the way solve the problems of FW. It still seems like the wrong medicine to me. Naively one could think that having more people doing PVE in FW space will lead to more PVP, but I think all the farming in FW has shown the opposite. FW people get tired of hunting people who do not want to be engaged. To engage in casual PVP is why a lot of people joined fw in the first place.

Out of interest does this resumé of the FW session include all the discussion that went on about FW and PVE, or are a lot of stuff omitted?

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#135 - 2015-10-05 21:15:59 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Thanks for the comments. I did read the minutes but I still didn't understand what they were talking about, but now I think I do.

So this is going to be a sort of 24 hour cycle. It rewards logging in one hour per day as opposed to logging in for hours once per week.

As for Faction War. There wasn't much there.

I am concerned about these patrols. I hope we don't go back to the days where npcs will be powerful and force militias to fit for pve, thus acting as a deterent to pvp. Also tweaking npcs has proven to be a red herring. It's the actual pvp players who need better tools to make the sov game pvp focused.

The four way war may invigorate faction war for the short term but none of the changes make the actual mechanics of fighting for sov more fun/pvp oriented.

It seems that ccp forgot many of things they said they wanted to do in faction war to make it more fun and pvp focused. E.g., such as timer rollbacks and better intel tools.

Its not just a matter of warp core stabs.


someone just linked your post in a channel and asked me if you are my alt since we seem to fully agree with all points ;)

at this point i am however not sure if ccp forgot about things or if they are intentionally ignoring them (both is possible, since the devs dealing with FW must have changed four times by now). As sidenote: null sov is getting timer rollbacks in one of the next patches, they only call the feature a little different.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Thorin Matarielle
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2015-10-05 21:22:40 UTC
per wrote:


i dont see how this can help unless there is really lot of those patrols but then again active plexers will be probably screwed by that as well, there was many sugestions how to fix this afk/stabbed problem in plexes but patrols is it seems like, lets wait and see (i'll go cry quietly in the corner in the meantime)



FW plex acceleration gates should refuse ships with Warp Core Stabs. These are dedicated combat sites not LP farming spots. If you want to farm LP go and do missions. Is that simple. Fights between opposing militias, fights for plexes should decide who owns the system not stabbed farmers. I really can't comprehend how this can not be fixed.

The most sad thing in FW! Cry>CLICK<

Listed under business?? X What do we talking about here?
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#137 - 2015-10-05 21:58:12 UTC
sero Hita wrote:


-decouple fw and standing



Lol I'd like to be able to join any faction at will regardless of standing, I would also enjoy shooting at my own side a lot since that won't cause a problem with standings
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#138 - 2015-10-05 22:05:08 UTC
Bienator II wrote:


someone just linked your post in a channel and asked me if you are my alt since we seem to fully agree with all points ;)

at this point i am however not sure if ccp forgot about things or if they are intentionally ignoring them (both is possible, since the devs dealing with FW must have changed four times by now). As sidenote: null sov is getting timer rollbacks in one of the next patches, they only call the feature a little different.


We have both been asking for this for a few years now.

Here is the link were I quote CCP Fozzie saying they still wanted to have rollbacks in October 2012. It just seems to have slipped through the cracks.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4928440#post4928440

Here is one a several assembly hall requests asking them to do the plex timer rollbacks.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=253352&find=unread

I think this combined with a real-time intel tool to tell when plexes are being taken and, fw sov would truly be an amazing pvp game.


CCP keeps asking about new players and faction war. But they should understand that many of their core players who have been playing for years love the small scale pvp fw can bring. And both new and veteran players would benefit from a fun and challenging fw sov system.

New players are also disappointed that no one in fw really cares about who is winning sov.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Flyinghotpocket
Doomheim
#139 - 2015-10-05 22:44:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
good changes with t3d's

good making a daily login award.

good making attempts at fixing fw missions

as a roleplayer i dont like the 4 way war thing. but i can see how it would bring more pvp into focus.

BAD letting players switch without standings hit. are you guys high? if you do this, then you need to loose -5 standings with the faction if you kill a friendlies. all this lets people do is hop militias killing NEW PLAYERS the people your trying to save here. without any ANY consequences.

if you do this you will find that role play in fw, will come to an end because we will literally be drained of isk, trying to maintain wardecs on every opportunity killer so we dont loose standing without our chosen faction.

if your going to fix fw. bring back the god damn ************* BATTLECRUISER RESTRICTED MAJOR COMPLEXES you just redid bc's and we need this BC plex BACK.


please stop releasing new ships and just fix the broken stuff. interdictors blow to hard. t3 balance has been long overdue. logi is way to prolific

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#140 - 2015-10-06 03:42:08 UTC
T3D are getting kicked out of small complexes

The problem is with the ship class, not where they can and can't go. It can be narrowed down specifically to the Svipul, which is still quite broken. I'm actually fine with T3Ds in smalls, but bringing their access in line with T3Cs is still a good idea.

FW missions are being reworked by CCP Red Dawn

There wasn't much to go on other than "throw some webs at it." Removing bombers from the equation only encourages people to run missions in cloak-fitted Ishtars, which are at even less risk than a bomber. Nigh on invulnerable on gates thanks to the Coak+MWD trick, by the time you've noticed them opening a mission, they've volleyed the NPC off the field and are leaving system. You're also raising the bar significantly for new players, expecting them to shell out for a HAC instead of a bomber. It would have made a lot more sense to make all of the racial missions runnable by bombers, especially since i believe only one race struggles to do so.

FW based NPC patrols are being added

While I like the idea as a bit of fluff, I fail to see how these convoys will act as a magic bullet for all of FW's woes. How exactly will these NPCs deal with both High-Sec gate camps and the swarms of stabbed/unfit farmers spread across both war zones? Short answer, they won't.

These convoy's will fight each other

That's nice. How does that help anyone?

Allowing individuals to enroll in FW without the entire corp/alliance having to go

Just no. Why would this need to be a thing? So your alts can quickly dip in and farm some LP without screwing up their employment history? Kill this quick.

Maybe making it easier to change militia with the standings stuff up to decoupling standings and being in the militia.

See above. Stupid idea. Militia membership should mean something, not be an allegiance you throw away the moment your opponent looks more profitable. You should be encouraging people to stick with their militia, not making it easier for farmers to switch sides. This is ignoring the obvious blue-on-blue shenanigans that standing hits help to keep in check.

4 way war between militia. It is a true 4 way war not just the removal of allies.

Without quick and easy access to their space, why should I care about capturing Amarr/Minmatar systems?

Suspect flagging when entering FW complexes.

I've made my opinion quite clear on this already, so I won't repeat myself here.

Frankly, I'm disappointed. The level of ignorance displayed concerning FW by CSM members is staggering. I don't believe I've ever heard anyone suggest combat ships should be prevented from fitting stabs. Just what do you use your FW alts for if you think PVP here is the same as anywhere else? I think the brief discussion about LP made that quite clear.

CCP fared little better. "Oh yeah, that's an issue, but we're not fixing it." You never cease to amaze me.