These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123
 

Suggested fix for the bounty system

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#41 - 2015-08-30 08:57:04 UTC
it's just turned into a downvote system for annoying spengs in local.

(pls don't bounty me)

forums.  serious business.
Alessienne Ellecon
Doomheim
#42 - 2015-08-30 10:12:40 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Yes, it scares new folks.

Yes, I am in rookie help often enough that I have actually made a mini-lesson about bounties that I cut and paste rather than type each time. I also assure them that if I am not worried then they have no reason to be worried either.


The fact that you have to do this at all is only a further indictment of the bounty system.

Quote:


Any bounty system that grants the automatic right to shoot in hisec is a gankers dream. See freighter, bounty freighter gank freighter, no concord.


Not much of a difference when you think about it; commercial and corp haulers get ganked all the time in null and suicide ganking is becoming more common in hisec thanks to CODE's extortion racket. Automatic right to shoot simply adds a measure of fairness and logic to the whole thing.

Quote:
Any bounty system that requires a specific trespass against the person laying the bounty blocks punishment of all other infractions such as scamming bumping or just being a general asshat.


Bounty trolling is also an act of asshattery. The exact criteria for allowing a bounty is something that would need much greater examination and debate. I maintain nonetheless that bounties should be reserved for those who have genuinely committed a criminal act against someone, whatever constitutes a criminal act.

Quote:

I agree the bounty system needs repairs or a rethink. But the OP here is not that repair.



If you can come up with anything better, I'm all ears.

"CONCORD are the space cops. If you attack someone in a high-security solar system, CONCORD will commit police brutality." - Encyclopedia Dramatica

If EVE is a PvP game, then Anti-Ganking is emergent gameplay.
Malt Zedong
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2015-08-30 10:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Malt Zedong
New people asks and worries about lots of things because they are new, should we change or remove everything that has to be explained so new people will feel more at ease ?

I always make new characters, it is something I like to do for fun.

In old times, when the present playerbase of eve was actually built, new characters were just thrown in the grinder, without so much as a nice lone place to practice and automatic explanations about how to play.

Today you have tons of staff to help you, tons of automatic tips and warnings. Channels you can go for help, from CCP and otherwise. You have career agents somewhat changed in order to make new people able to learn.

If we start going around protecting people from what they will eventually face, they wont learn about it until its too late.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#44 - 2015-08-30 10:29:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Alessienne Ellecon wrote:
The fact that you have to do this at all is only a further indictment of the bounty system.
Not really. It's just something that's not covered by the NPE and which new players have to learn at some point. It doesn't particularly say anything about the bounty system — only about the players' lack of research.

Quote:
Not much of a difference when you think about it; commercial and corp haulers get ganked all the time in null and suicide ganking is becoming more common in hisec thanks to CODE's extortion racket. Automatic right to shoot simply adds a measure of fairness and logic to the whole thing.
Eh no. It will only ever add a measure of unfairness. The gankers are already free targets so there will be no difference whatsoever on that end. Instead, it will make it far easier and cheaper to gank people, since you no longer have to worry about compensating for a short kill window by throwing tons of people and DPS on the problem.

So the difference is huge, and it only hurts the people you think you're helping. The best-case scenario is one where the change is pointless and the mechanism is never used: i.e. if it was priced high enough that it couldn't be used by ganking, but that would inherently defeat the purpose of having it to begin with…

Quote:
Bounty trolling is also an act of asshattery. The exact criteria for allowing a bounty is something that would need much greater examination and debate. I maintain nonetheless that bounties should be reserved for those who have genuinely committed a criminal act against someone, whatever constitutes a criminal act.
That makes them entirely pointless. What you want is already in the game and there doesn't particularly need to be two things that serve the same purpose. It also removes the only saving grace of bounties: that it is they players who determine what counts as “criminal” (or, more accurately, “offensive”) in any given instance.

The criminal flagging system handles what happens to people who commit criminal acts against someone. The bounty system should handle what happens when people want to put a bounty on someone. They serve radically different purposes and confusing the two only ever serves to make the system confusing (and open to exploitation). If your idea essentially just duplicates existing mechanics, it has no value and there's no reason to implement it.

Quote:
If you can come up with anything better, I'm all ears.
Leaving it as it is is a better option.
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#45 - 2015-08-30 17:48:54 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
I think I remember seeing an n billion isk for killing so and so's titan, chribba holds the isk type thread a while ago... no idea if anyone ever claimed it though.
It was actually claimed last week Smile Took a long time but finally happened hehe

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2015-08-30 20:31:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
Solution: whoever put the bounty(s) decides how much to payout, from zero up to 100%.

Has to decide within a fixed time limit, else it's 100%.

Also include optional presets (like 0, 20%, 50%, 100%) to avoid having to decide each time.


My understanding is that currently it's not 100% for ONE REASON only: to avoid people claiming it by killing themselves in a noobship with their alts.

This suggested solution solves the problem in a way that's more fitting to a social MMO: let people investigate and decide on their own if it's a 'legit' and/or 'satisfying' kill for the ISK they spent (e.g. demanding the killmail).


\o/ bounties finally become cool.


Note: obviously all current bounties would be cancelled before introducing the new system.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Sy Tarn Thallion
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#47 - 2015-08-30 21:06:35 UTC
this has already been a timeless debate. I posted an idea for bounty system several months ago and it got "rejected" because i threw a bunch of ideas together. but people took as all the ideas had to be in my idea of the system when that wasn't the case. i threw a bunch of scenarios out and whatever sounded good they could use. honestly ccp needs to pay attention to the debate take ideas from several players and put things together to make it work. everyone liked my 4 first ideas but the rest were crap which is how i felt they were in the beginning but i threw them out there just to cover bases. check it out if you want.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=419420&p=2
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#48 - 2015-08-31 00:38:35 UTC
+1 for a new pass on the bounty system. I already contributed to ideas here.

Alessienne Ellecon wrote:
...
  • Abolish the kill right system: people have been exploiting it anyway by transferring the kill right to an alt and locking it down with a billion isk activation cost. Replace it with open season on anyone who has a bounty greater than the gross estimated market value of their ship and fit.

    • I disagree that kill rights should be removed, and replaced by an open season based on values that can be gamed. kill rights open up possibilities of tricking someone, but they are still a valid system, independently of bounties.


    Alessienne Ellecon wrote:

  • Allow bounties to pay the full amount, but only allow a player to issue a bounty against someone who has attacked them, attacked their corp's POS or stolen cargo from a container (that would get me a king's ransom on my head before long :P ) outside of a corp war. If the parties' corps are at war, the bounty system will not apply.

    • Placing a bounty based on specific kind of interation seems limited. Many griefing actions do not enter into clear cut identifiable actions. Bounties payment *must* remain locked to the value of the assets lost, else we go back to worst times. The only limit I would welcome is that older characters cannot place bpunty on younger ones (my suggestions is to do that by calculating life time ISK gain for each pilot, displayong it as an ISK ranking, and only allowing placing bounties on piilots with a higher lifetime ISK gain than ypurself).

    Alessienne Ellecon wrote:

  • If multiple parties in a fleet claim a bounty, divide the isk accordingly.

    • as far as I know this is already the case....

    Alessienne Ellecon wrote:

  • Add the option for players to pay off their bounties: the full value to CONCORD, then half again to the aggrieved player/s.

    • the concepg is good, allow a player to spend a bit more money that his bpunty value to get rid of,it, but I would suggest adding a bounty cost, as a small percentage of the bounty to be paid (bribery) everytime the pilot wants to interact with the game (docking, undocking, sell order, buy order, gate jumping, clone jumps,.industry job, changing ship, anchoring, ),, this amount paid to complete the action would also reduce the bounty value accordingly (may be something like .001% of the bounty, with a minimum of 1ISk, and an option to autompay if money is in the wallet). Bounties must have a negative effect, and not be a bragging value.

    Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

    Check out the Minarchist Space Project
    Saisin
    Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
    #49 - 2015-08-31 00:44:57 UTC
    Chribba wrote:
    Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
    I think I remember seeing an n billion isk for killing so and so's titan, chribba holds the isk type thread a while ago... no idea if anyone ever claimed it though.
    It was actually claimed last week Smile Took a long time but finally happened hehe


    oh!? more details please!

    Is there is a list of player's placed bounties like that somewhere? especially if you are involved to make sure both side respect a contract, this may be the best bounty system ever...

    I have heard about the bounty CCP put on Lukas Raholan on the Hillen Tukoss body, and there seem to be one going on for the body of the late Empress Jamyl, but if there are other bounties going on, I'd love to know about them!

    Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

    Check out the Minarchist Space Project
    Davis TetrisKing
    The Vendunari
    End of Life
    #50 - 2015-08-31 00:56:33 UTC
    Malcanis wrote:



    The only good reason to change them is the intrinsic problem with PvP as a paying career: it's strongly negative sum.

    If Someone Aggreived wants to pay you, Tippia to inflict harm on me, Malcanis, then you're going to want a lot of ISK to do it, likely far more ISK than the actual net harm you're going to inflict on me. Now given that I suck pretty hard at PvP, we'll assume that if you can catch me, you can kill me. But EVE makes it pretty easy for someone who doesn't want to be caught not to be caught. Let's say it takes you 5 or 6 hours of focused game time to catch up with me. Taking Hi-sec L4 income as the baseline, that means you're going to want 250-360M ISK to even make the effort to get a scram on me, before you even consider the risk of me accidentally shooting back (and the much higher risk of me being with 20-200 friends, but leave that to the side for the moment).

    In short, you're not going to get out of bed for less than half a bill here.

    ...



    I'm going to call BS on two points.

    PvP does not have to be negative sum.
    Isk/hour is not the only metric to measure things by.

    Personally I play the game because I enjoy it. I enjoy pvp more than pve. If I can pull a net gain in isk from pvping then it means I can continue to pvp without having to pve. This way I get to have more fun. Isk/hour becomes irrelevant.

    Bounties actually do help make pvp a paying career. It's nice to get that little bit of bonus isk on top of whatever drops. Sure, you don't get 100% of the value of their ship, that just means you have to have a much higher isk destroyed to isk lost ratio for your pvp. Which is good for the eve economy.
    Davis TetrisKing
    The Vendunari
    End of Life
    #51 - 2015-08-31 01:07:26 UTC
    moep wrote:
    Op has a point here, bounty systems is a fail at present stage. I would rather go for a solution in this direction:

    Bounty system proposal

    1. Combine bounty with sec status (negative) and maximum limits

    2. Step increase of the max. limit from sec status -1.0 to -5,0, as example 50 million per -1.0 up to 200m max limit (amount is a first shot)

    3. Bounty still needs to be placed and paid by players, but only possible up to the respective limit in regard to offenders current sec status

    4. If you got a bounty on your head you are free to be shot on sight in highsec and lowsec.

    5. Keep the 20% payout (or increase a little bit) so that buddy killing is not a major flaw

    6. Bounty is auto-reduced with increased sec status, so soldier tags or sec grinding can reduce your bounty (but costs the offender some isk or time as is by today). If reduced the overpaid bounty goes to nevereverland.

    7. Ship kill and bounty payout does not influence offenders sec status, so new bounty can be placed if below limit

    Result:

    => Only players with negative sec status can have a bounty Pirate (like in the old days? I do not remember Question)

    => New players or "good" players are not faced with this system

    => Bounty hunting is still not a profession worth its isk but more reasonable and not that useless

    => No real ranking because many players will fly with 200m. Downside for famous bounty collectors Sad, but at least the "Wanted" logo is limited to the "badboy" playerbase and shown on all your player pics, maybe also extended to forum to get some Yarrr-feeling in the community.

    Kill rights:
    Make a limit, i don't know 20 mill. Will get people more trigger happy and will increase the hunt, downside no "abuse" as isk-income anymore.

    PS: Quick shot from my side and needs some deeper rethinking by experts Big smile. It's late and maybe there is a loophole in this proposal.

    Would be interesting to get a first feedback and maybe this could be something for the Features & Ideas forum

    moepy out

    PS: zzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz Blink


    Why? Anyone with less than -0.5 sec status is KOS anyway, you can go ahead and shoot them whenever you want, so there's no need to link it to bounties. You can already hunt pirates in HS.

    Avoid isk caps. Isk means different things to different players. To new players 50 mil isk is a lot. To old players 50mil isk is nothing.

    You've kept the 20% payout to avoid the system being gamed. Good. This is one of the most important parts of the system.

    Overall this suggestion does nothing but restrict the bounty system to only pirates and only an irrelevant amount of isk. Might as well leave it as is.


    Honestly the real answer to claiming bounties is to GET OUT OF HS! In Null you get to ignore aggression mechanics completely, and in LS you can claim the bounty for a sec status hit. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it.
    Hal Morsh
    Doomheim
    #52 - 2015-09-01 00:55:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
    Mike Azariah wrote:

    Any bounty system that grants the automatic right to shoot in hisec is a gankers dream. See freighter, bounty freighter gank freighter, no concord.




    But the bounty being higher than the ship cost kind of ... Well people would just inject isk into their killboards ;/
    Would people repeatedly pay 1 bill to gank a 1 bill freighter without any grudge? I know this is EVE but...


    Blegh.

    Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
    Hasikan Miallok
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #53 - 2015-09-01 01:46:42 UTC
    No player based bounty system will ever work.

    Some expansion of kill rights (when given the first you can buy extra ones at the time of issue?) might work but could open a serious can of worms with exploit possibilities like you would not believe.

    A NPC bounty based revenant system may work but it is not very EVE.
    Previous page123