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Fuel blocks! (and CCP Soundwaves wildlife safety advice)

First post First post
Author
Zleon Leigh
#421 - 2012-01-22 17:22:39 UTC
Dilaro thagriin wrote:
DaiTengu wrote:
I've been out of the logistics loop for awhile, since every time I got within 100km of a POS I've wanted to suck the end of a .45.

However, IIRC, CCP mentioned they were going to do a hybrid system so a POS could consume both regular fuel and fuel blocks for a limited time period.

Today, talking to my masochistic friends that currently do logistics, I find out this isn't the case. I was wondering what all the fuss was, and now I know.


CCP is handling this in the worst possible way. At least set up some sort of hybrid system so people can convert to fuel blocks easily. You're being absolutely ******* ******** about this.




**sigh** you were told wrong.

they were NEVER going to be consuming both types, they just made it so that you could put both types into your fuel bay. so it would consume normal fuels until the change-over, and fuel blocks afterwards.

and to quote an earlier response, yes, Goon tears... oh so sweet.


Yeah, CCP made it harder on the players rather than do a small bit of coding. Sure, np, make the player move materials twice rather than have to think for a bit.


Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#422 - 2012-01-22 17:28:47 UTC
Zleon Leigh wrote:
Dilaro thagriin wrote:
DaiTengu wrote:
I've been out of the logistics loop for awhile, since every time I got within 100km of a POS I've wanted to suck the end of a .45.

However, IIRC, CCP mentioned they were going to do a hybrid system so a POS could consume both regular fuel and fuel blocks for a limited time period.

Today, talking to my masochistic friends that currently do logistics, I find out this isn't the case. I was wondering what all the fuss was, and now I know.


CCP is handling this in the worst possible way. At least set up some sort of hybrid system so people can convert to fuel blocks easily. You're being absolutely ******* ******** about this.




**sigh** you were told wrong.

they were NEVER going to be consuming both types, they just made it so that you could put both types into your fuel bay. so it would consume normal fuels until the change-over, and fuel blocks afterwards.

and to quote an earlier response, yes, Goon tears... oh so sweet.


Yeah, CCP made it harder on the players rather than do a small bit of coding. Sure, np, make the player move materials twice rather than have to think for a bit.




As has been discussed before, insisting that CCP allow both fuels would have meant no fuel block change. POS code is stupidly fragile, and just because you can figure out the pseudocode doesn't mean it's easy/possible to implement on a database with plenty of legacy issues.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Zleon Leigh
#423 - 2012-01-22 19:27:29 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


POS code is stupidly fragile


and there we have it... roughshod code development produced shoddy code.

Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#424 - 2012-01-22 20:15:11 UTC
Zleon Leigh wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


POS code is stupidly fragile


and there we have it... roughshod code development produced shoddy code.


The fun part about complex, long running game design, is that it's hard to adequately forecast the costs of making seemingly sensible cost saving decisions early on.

Imagine you're CCP in 2003. Is it worth spending a lot of time making POSes robust and extensible, or do you spend that development time working on things that might get your game afloat in customers?

Legacy code sucks. It sucks even more when you can't just write something new and patch in an emulator to support the legacy code.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Lilly Shiroimozu
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#425 - 2012-01-23 00:58:38 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:

On a slightly related note, here is a quick piece of wildlife advice that could save you or a loved one: If bitten by a snake, avoid attempting to suck out the poison from the wound, like seen in movies. You’ll remove insignificant quantities of poison, while transferring bacteria to the wound and subjecting yourself to the risk of getting poisoned. Instead, call for help and arrange transport to the nearest hospital emergency room. Like with bears, the safest bet is staying away from poisonous snakes in the first place.



This is incorrect, there is only one poisonous snake I am aware of , the tiger keelback snake, Rhabdophis tigrinus which sequesters it's poison from eating toads. Poisonous generally refers to things which will kill you if you eat them, such as mushrooms, toads, and cheap prostitutes.

There are however many VENOMOUS snakes for which your advice is sound.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#426 - 2012-01-23 04:21:13 UTC
Lilly Shiroimozu wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:

On a slightly related note, here is a quick piece of wildlife advice that could save you or a loved one: If bitten by a snake, avoid attempting to suck out the poison from the wound, like seen in movies. You’ll remove insignificant quantities of poison, while transferring bacteria to the wound and subjecting yourself to the risk of getting poisoned. Instead, call for help and arrange transport to the nearest hospital emergency room. Like with bears, the safest bet is staying away from poisonous snakes in the first place.



This is incorrect, there is only one poisonous snake I am aware of , the tiger keelback snake, Rhabdophis tigrinus which sequesters it's poison from eating toads. Poisonous generally refers to things which will kill you if you eat them, such as mushrooms, toads, and cheap prostitutes.

There are however many VENOMOUS snakes for which your advice is sound.



Oh, man. Someone with a sharper eye for pedantry than I. I think Ruby's fallen in love.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Fred Kyong
Grollwerk
#427 - 2012-01-23 10:43:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Fred Kyong
DeathBeforeDishonour wrote:
Has there been an update on the consumption of fuel blocks per hour for the various POS sizes ? All I can see is that it is still 1/2/4 per hour for small/medium/large towers. Is that still the case ?


Right now I am abit lost in the calculation of future fuel consumption.

In the fuel block description they talk about 10/20/40 per hour. Not 1/2/4 per hour. I did the rough math, but when it is 40 per hour, then fuel prices will raise by about 400% ?

Right now I have 4500 fuel blocks
40 blocks per hour x 24h = 960 blocks a day
960 blocks a day x 7 days = 6720 blocks per week

My 4500 blocks will maybe last abit more than 5 days

Checking the market 4500 blocks fly for about 79 mill. This is 9.87% over market price...sure abit expensive right now....

I think before I payed about 150 mill for about 1 month of fuel and if I had to buy it? Something?

Hopefully my calc has some errors or the Fuel Block description has a typo.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#428 - 2012-01-23 11:08:40 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Fred Kyong wrote:
DeathBeforeDishonour wrote:
Has there been an update on the consumption of fuel blocks per hour for the various POS sizes ? All I can see is that it is still 1/2/4 per hour for small/medium/large towers. Is that still the case ?


Right now I am abit lost in the calculation of future fuel consumption.

In the fuel block description they talk about 10/20/40 per hour. Not 1/2/4 per hour. I did the rough math, but when it is 40 per hour, then fuel prices will raise by about 400% ?

Right now I have 4500 fuel blocks
40 blocks per hour x 24h = 960 blocks a day
960 blocks a day x 7 days = 6720 blocks per week

My 4500 blocks will maybe last abit more than 5 days

Checking the market 4500 blocks fly for about 79 mill. This is 9.87% over market price...sure abit expensive right now....

I think before I payed about 150 mill for about 1 month of fuel and if I had to buy it? Something?

Hopefully my calc has some errors or the Fuel Block description has a typo.


1 run off the BPO makes 40 blocks. So the inputs listed make 40 blocks. The inputs listed are similar to the current inputs for a large POS for 1 hour. The new fuel requirements for a Large POS for 1 hour is 40 blocks.

Small POSes get a boost due to using less robotics. Nearly empty and unevenly CPU/PG POSes are getting a little more expensive.

Call the doctor, I think I have deja vu all over again


Again


Again


Agin

(You last paid 150m a month for a large POS around ~2 years ago)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Fred Kyong
Grollwerk
#429 - 2012-01-23 11:12:13 UTC
Oh Oh! I think I will knock all towers down! Get them out
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#430 - 2012-01-23 11:17:11 UTC
Fred Kyong wrote:
Oh Oh! I think I will knock all towers down! Get them out

Wat?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

seany1212
Drunkendis Order
#431 - 2012-01-23 12:09:21 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Fred Kyong wrote:
DeathBeforeDishonour wrote:
Has there been an update on the consumption of fuel blocks per hour for the various POS sizes ? All I can see is that it is still 1/2/4 per hour for small/medium/large towers. Is that still the case ?


Right now I am abit lost in the calculation of future fuel consumption.

In the fuel block description they talk about 10/20/40 per hour. Not 1/2/4 per hour. I did the rough math, but when it is 40 per hour, then fuel prices will raise by about 400% ?

Right now I have 4500 fuel blocks
40 blocks per hour x 24h = 960 blocks a day
960 blocks a day x 7 days = 6720 blocks per week

My 4500 blocks will maybe last abit more than 5 days

Checking the market 4500 blocks fly for about 79 mill. This is 9.87% over market price...sure abit expensive right now....

I think before I payed about 150 mill for about 1 month of fuel and if I had to buy it? Something?

Hopefully my calc has some errors or the Fuel Block description has a typo.


1 run off the BPO makes 40 blocks. So the inputs listed make 40 blocks. The inputs listed are similar to the current inputs for a large POS for 1 hour. The new fuel requirements for a Large POS for 1 hour is 40 blocks.

Small POSes get a boost due to using less robotics. Nearly empty and unevenly CPU/PG POSes are getting a little more expensive.

Call the doctor, I think I have deja vu all over again


Again


Again


Agin

(You last paid 150m a month for a large POS around ~2 years ago)


This, I think I paid 350-450 mill for a months fuel on a large pos the last time I had to fuel it about 4 months ago
Fred Kyong
Grollwerk
#432 - 2012-01-23 18:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Fred Kyong
Doing my math again

Calculation Fuel Costs (large tower):

Large Tower:
40 Fuel blocks per hour x 24h a day = 960 fuel blocks a day
960 fuel blocks a day x 7 days a week = 6720 fuel blocks a week
6720 fuel blocks a week x 4 weeks = 26.880 fuel blocks a month

Right now the price for an Amarr Fuel Block is about 18.500 ISK on the market (~0% under/ over market price)

18.500 ISK x 960 Fuel Blocks a day = 1.776.000 ISK a day
x one week = 124.320.000 ISK a week
x 4 weeks = 497.280.000 ISK a month (in words 497.28 MILL ISK)

Fuel consumption based on tower size per month:

Large Tower per month: 497.200.000 ISK a month
Medium Tower per month: 248.640.000 ISK a month
Small Tower per month: 124.320.000 ISK a month
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#433 - 2012-01-23 18:57:46 UTC
Fred Kyong wrote:
Right now the price for an Amarr Fuel Block is about 18.500 ISK on the market (~0% under/ over market price)

16,500 in Jita, actually.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#434 - 2012-01-24 03:42:30 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Fred Kyong wrote:
Doing my math again

Calculation Fuel Costs (large tower):

Large Tower:
40 Fuel blocks per hour x 24h a day = 960 fuel blocks a day
960 fuel blocks a day x 7 days a week = 6720 fuel blocks a week
6720 fuel blocks a week x 4 weeks = 26.880 fuel blocks a month

Right now the price for an Amarr Fuel Block is about 18.500 ISK on the market (~0% under/ over market price)

18.500 ISK x 960 Fuel Blocks a day = 1.776.000 ISK a day
x one week = 124.320.000 ISK a week
x 4 weeks = 497.280.000 ISK a month (in words 497.28 MILL ISK)

Fuel consumption based on tower size per month:

Large Tower per month: 497.200.000 ISK a month
Medium Tower per month: 248.640.000 ISK a month
Small Tower per month: 124.320.000 ISK a month


That's roughly right, though you're missing a significant figure in your day cost. Also you're including a middleman who you never had to include before. So you're paying the fuel cost + the cost of the effort to process said fuel.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#435 - 2012-01-24 05:18:51 UTC
Assuming a perfect ME BPO (ME 40), and Production Efficiency V (no waste) and prices as follows:

Coolant - 9340
Enr Uranium - 10060
Mech Parts - 7635
Oxygen - 235
Robotics - 67060
Charters - 2500

Heavy Water - 125
Helium (Amarr) - 500
Hydrogen (Minmatar) - 635
Nitrogen (Caldari) - 555
Oxygen (Gallente) - 1000
Liquid Ozone - 480

You get the following prices per 30 days (including the price of a fuel block at zero mark-up):

Amarr: 93 / 184 / 367 - 12744 ISK/u
Caldari: 97 / 193 / 383 - 13313 ISK/u
Gallente: 129 / 257 / 511 - 17753 ISK/u
Minmatar: 103 / 204 / 406 - 14098 ISK/u

Which puts the cost of a large tower at around 370-405M per 30days (510M for Gallente).

The current market prices for POS fuel blocks are heavily speculation - those who didn't plan ahead will end up paying patch week prices for their fuel. If you had bought a few weeks ago, you'd have paid 13-15k per pellet.

And, unless the underlying material costs go up dramatically, it won't be long before prices crash right back down to 5-15% above production cost. Since PI-materials are trending downward and isotopes have been basically flat, that's not likely to happen.

(The rest of us are sitting on at least 3-6 months worth of fuel blocks that we made back when material cost for a pellet was about 13500, which was a bargain at the time and probably will be a bargain for the next few months.)
Taipion
Adeptus Petrous
#436 - 2012-01-24 16:36:26 UTC
uhhm

Did anyone realize yet, that this is actually a step backwards?

You still need all the different items to fuel a tower, but on top of that you have to build something out of it before it works!
(or you pay someone else to do so, by buying blocks directly)
Neo Agricola
#437 - 2012-01-24 16:54:08 UTC
Taipion wrote:
uhhm

Did anyone realize yet, that this is actually a step backwards?

You still need all the different items to fuel a tower, but on top of that you have to build something out of it before it works!
(or you pay someone else to do so, by buying blocks directly)

Actually: No, it isnt.

It is the best improvement with the current Starbase system.

Fueling Towers is now a nobrainer: Fill Amarr Fuel Blocks into Amarr Towers, end of story.

Ok, you still have to haul 140.000 m^3 per month/Tower

DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=706442#post706442 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710

Taipion
Adeptus Petrous
#438 - 2012-01-24 17:08:06 UTC
Neo Agricola wrote:
Taipion wrote:
uhhm

Did anyone realize yet, that this is actually a step backwards?

You still need all the different items to fuel a tower, but on top of that you have to build something out of it before it works!
(or you pay someone else to do so, by buying blocks directly)

Actually: No, it isnt.

It is the best improvement with the current Starbase system.

Fueling Towers is now a nobrainer: Fill Amarr Fuel Blocks into Amarr Towers, end of story.

Ok, you still have to haul 140.000 m^3 per month/Tower


Those who can read, have a clear advantage.

You either pay a fee for someone to build it (=buy in market) or build it yourself.

So where is this an improvement now?!
Neo Agricola
#439 - 2012-01-24 17:14:32 UTC
Taipion wrote:
Neo Agricola wrote:
Taipion wrote:
uhhm

Did anyone realize yet, that this is actually a step backwards?

You still need all the different items to fuel a tower, but on top of that you have to build something out of it before it works!
(or you pay someone else to do so, by buying blocks directly)

Actually: No, it isnt.

It is the best improvement with the current Starbase system.

Fueling Towers is now a nobrainer: Fill Amarr Fuel Blocks into Amarr Towers, end of story.

Ok, you still have to haul 140.000 m^3 per month/Tower


Those who can read, have a clear advantage.

You either pay a fee for someone to build it (=buy in market) or build it yourself.

So where is this an improvement now?!


How many POSes do you maintain?

DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=706442#post706442 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710

Taipion
Adeptus Petrous
#440 - 2012-01-24 17:31:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Taipion
Neo Agricola wrote:
Taipion wrote:
Neo Agricola wrote:
Taipion wrote:
uhhm

Did anyone realize yet, that this is actually a step backwards?

You still need all the different items to fuel a tower, but on top of that you have to build something out of it before it works!
(or you pay someone else to do so, by buying blocks directly)

Actually: No, it isnt.

It is the best improvement with the current Starbase system.

Fueling Towers is now a nobrainer: Fill Amarr Fuel Blocks into Amarr Towers, end of story.

Ok, you still have to haul 140.000 m^3 per month/Tower


Those who can read, have a clear advantage.

You either pay a fee for someone to build it (=buy in market) or build it yourself.

So where is this an improvement now?!


How many POSes do you maintain?


3 Right now, and no, it does not make a difference, especially if you manage way more towers, you have to build the blocks yourself, which means you have to own all the separate materials!
Refueling each POS might seem easier, but its maybe 10-20 seconds per POS that you can safe, if you were doing it right allready before there were blocks.
On the other hand you have additional work by building the blocks.
The Hauling is no less, and you shold not need to refuel a POS more than every 2-3 weeks at most.

So again, where is the improvement?

It´s just added work, or cost, or both.