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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Is it possible for the Empires to come to a truce?

Author
Arrendis
TK Corp
#161 - 2015-09-13 21:08:43 UTC
Ferrucio Surge wrote:
As long as Amarr is willing to accept help in these dark times, I will be there, and I hope to see some of you there as well. Perhaps, at the end of the day, we can find at least a few things in common.


My biggest concern is this: if non-Amarr pilots and capsuleers are instrumental in the survival of the Amarr Empire, then do the Amarr feel afterward that they owe those other nations and their people a debt, and make efforts to repay that debt, or do they feel that this is clear evidence that their culture and their faith have compelled the other empires and independents to come to their aid, and take it to mean they should double-down on their claims of superiority and push forward with aggressive Reclamation efforts?

I have a feeling it will be the latter. That aiding the Empire will only make the Empire decide that everyone knows their proper place is serving the needs of Amarr. Individuals may be grateful, but the Empire itself will see it only as due deference and implicit submission.
Ferrucio Surge
The Bag Cartel
#162 - 2015-09-13 22:59:42 UTC
We can be explicit in that our efforts are purely humanitarian in nature. But I owe no allegiance to their government or their God.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#163 - 2015-09-14 00:50:14 UTC
Ferrucio Surge wrote:
We can be explicit in that our efforts are purely humanitarian in nature. But I owe no allegiance to their government or their God.


Mmhm. We can be as explicit as we like in explaining what they can still choose to see as rationalizations and denial of our true motives.

Humility is not in the Empire's nature.
Hibou Heluene
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2015-09-14 01:32:38 UTC
Ferrucio Surge wrote:
As long as Amarr is willing to accept help in these dark times, I will be there, and I hope to see some of you there as well. Perhaps, at the end of the day, we can find at least a few things in common.

The civilians of Amarr - Holder, commoner, and slaves - have no choice in their involvement as bystanders. Make no mistake, the Drifters are the comeuppance of capsuleer arrogance and prosecution of violence in wormhole space, space to which capsuleers had no claim. That others must risk a grave price in the midst of Drifter vengeance is abhorrent, and capsuleers with a mote of decency would make aiding these civilians a top priority. I do not believe the Amarr will disservice their people by refusing such assistance.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#165 - 2015-09-14 02:16:57 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Empire's gratitude is not wiping yet Republic from existence completely. And that's what these minmatar swines, who were celebrating death of Her Majesty - the person who released more slave than anyone else, should learn.
The Amarr empire is truly gratuitous. Even after such lack of gratitude and humanity by minmatars they still let the Republic live.
Truly iron will.

So, the same Gratitude the Gallente show you....

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#166 - 2015-09-14 02:47:42 UTC
Hibou Heluene wrote:

The civilians of Amarr - Holder, commoner, and slaves - have no choice in their involvement as bystanders. Make no mistake, the Drifters are the comeuppance of capsuleer arrogance and prosecution of violence in wormhole space, space to which capsuleers had no claim. That others must risk a grave price in the midst of Drifter vengeance is abhorrent, and capsuleers with a mote of decency would make aiding these civilians a top priority. I do not believe the Amarr will disservice their people by refusing such assistance.

Could you point me at some credible news reports, like.... say Scope reports perhaps, that actually show civilians are in any risk from the Drifters?
The Drifters have only engaged capsuleer targets and Amarr Military targets as far as I have seen and found from investigating. They are not Sansha conducting planetary raiding.
Ferrucio Surge
The Bag Cartel
#167 - 2015-09-14 03:13:15 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Hibou Heluene wrote:

The civilians of Amarr - Holder, commoner, and slaves - have no choice in their involvement as bystanders. Make no mistake, the Drifters are the comeuppance of capsuleer arrogance and prosecution of violence in wormhole space, space to which capsuleers had no claim. That others must risk a grave price in the midst of Drifter vengeance is abhorrent, and capsuleers with a mote of decency would make aiding these civilians a top priority. I do not believe the Amarr will disservice their people by refusing such assistance.

Could you point me at some credible news reports, like.... say Scope reports perhaps, that actually show civilians are in any risk from the Drifters?
The Drifters have only engaged capsuleer targets and Amarr Military targets as far as I have seen and found from investigating. They are not Sansha conducting planetary raiding.

I suppose that's a good point, but I don't see many other reasons for attacking a nation's military if not for conquest. Perhaps humiliation? But the Drifters have not explained themselves, nor are they interested in negotiating. What we have seen is a continuing trend of wanton aggression.
Hibou Heluene
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2015-09-14 03:24:30 UTC
Non-combat vessels can carry civilian crews. If they are captained by capsuleers, those captains create the threat against their own crews by nature of what they are. The Drifters won't stop at civilian crews to get what they want, which sits in the pod.
Alex II
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2015-09-14 19:15:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex II
Constantin Makanen wrote:
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
If the Amarr Empire wishes to survive the price for Tribal intervention should be as follows:

......

This is just a draft but tell me, does that sound reasonable for the aid of those The Empire has been trying to persecute and ahnilalate for centuries?



Somebody badly missed the point of the proposal.



The proposal was stillborn, dead on arrival.

Because somebody failed to recognize that forgiveness without repentance is simply not possible. Nor would it be wise.

Rapprochement is possible, even desirable ....something worthy of great sacrifice to obtain.

Free the slaves....all of them. Every.....last .....one.
Ferrucio Surge
The Bag Cartel
#170 - 2015-09-15 22:49:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ferrucio Surge
We cannot make radical demands until we give them a radical impression. Matari have been fighting Amarr for a long time. We have reasons to hate each other, but hatred will not lead to peace. War will beget more war. We can at least try to demonstrate mercy to break the cycle when the opportunity arises. I won't expect Amarr to compromise their entire stock of slaves, but at least if we were to help them, they would have a logical reason to negotiate SOMETHING. And if I'm wrong, and they break the trust, then they damn themselves. But we have to do this honestly and without malice. We have to be the better people
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#171 - 2015-09-16 03:33:42 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
So, the same Gratitude the Gallente show you....

Gallenteans are liars and backstabbers, looking only to betray you, convert you to their filthy ideals and stop your progress out of envy and greed, forcing you into inefficient degradation akin to their crumbling Federation.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#172 - 2015-09-16 03:44:38 UTC
Ferrucio Surge wrote:
We cannot make radical demands until we give them a radical impression. Matari have been fighting Amarr for a long time. We have reasons to hate each other, but hatred will not lead to peace. War will beget more war. We can at least try to demonstrate mercy to break the cycle when the opportunity arises. I won't expect Amarr to compromise their entire stock of slaves, but at least if we were to help them, they would have a logical reason to negotiate SOMETHING. And if I'm wrong, and they break the trust, then they damn themselves. But we have to do this honestly and without malice. We have to be the better people

Jamyl Sarum has shown mercy and even after tribals attacked core worlds and killed millions of innocent Amarr citizens, she has released whole generation of slaves.

What they got in return from tribals? Continued agression, terror and... they even rejoiced and celebrated Her Majesty's death.

Some things can be solved with mercy and generosity. Others require violence. Unfortunately, the violence and not the mercy is the language that tribals will understand.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Quattras Peione
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#173 - 2015-09-16 03:45:05 UTC
Truce or no truce, I do believe the Emergency Militia War Powers Act is an obstruction to progress, not only to the peace process, but to the defense of the cluster at large. As long as it is more profitable in the short term to continue fighting than to seek a united sense of purpose, the war machine will continue grinding along. I had my legal team draft a proposal to CONCORD do have the act abolished, but the Peione Foundation (e.g. my father) has advised against pursuing such an agenda at this time.

Dr. Quattras Alvar Peione

No, I'm not that kind of doctor.

Alex II
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#174 - 2015-09-16 04:14:25 UTC

Jamyl Sarum has shown mercy and even after tribals attacked core worlds and killed millions of innocent Amarr citizens, she has released whole generation of slaves.

What they got in return from tribals? Continued agression, terror and... they even rejoiced and celebrated Her Majesty's death.

Some things can be solved with mercy and generosity. Others require violence. Unfortunately, the violence and not the mercy is the language that tribals will understand.[/quote]


Correct.

15,000 (out of billions?) aged and infirm slaves released because their propaganda value, less the cost of transporting them, exceeded the cost of killing them and disposing of the bodies.

Whom do you believe you are fooling? The Witch is dead...and yes, I celebrate liberally.
Viktor Revon
#175 - 2015-09-16 04:23:50 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
So, the same Gratitude the Gallente show you....

Gallenteans are liars and backstabbers, looking only to betray you, convert you to their filthy ideals and stop your progress out of envy and greed, forcing you into inefficient degradation akin to their crumbling Federation.

They were to us, yes, and as a whole this can be true.

Although the Federation is not crumbling, as much as we both wish it would.

Individually, the Gallente choose their own place, am I not correct? They are not all monsters.

"Into the dark abyss shall we venture once more." - Viktor Revon

Viktor Revon
#176 - 2015-09-16 04:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Viktor Revon
Alex II wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Jamyl Sarum has shown mercy and even after tribals attacked core worlds and killed millions of innocent Amarr citizens, she has released whole generation of slaves.

What they got in return from tribals? Continued agression, terror and... they even rejoiced and celebrated Her Majesty's death.

Some things can be solved with mercy and generosity. Others require violence. Unfortunately, the violence and not the mercy is the language that tribals will understand.



Correct.

15,000 (out of billions?) aged and infirm slaves released because their propaganda value, less the cost of transporting them, exceeded the cost of killing them and disposing of the bodies.

Whom do you believe you are fooling? The Witch is dead...and yes, I celebrate liberally.

While I do not personally celebrate the death of Empress Sarum, I do see it right that you have the ability to do so yourself.

A Caldarian fellow, Galm Fae, is likely celebrating along with you at this time, though in separate celebrations.

Now, Kim, you might want to watch your words.
it is not that they are merciful, it's that the Gallente would be on their asses if they even tried.
Just as we, the Caldari, are not utterly wiped out by the Gallente due to the fact we have the Amarr backing us.

Almost like a stalemate you could say.

If you are a bit confused, then a simple spot.
The Caldari would be overwhelmed, due to sheer numbers.
Now, this is avoided by using the Amarr to back us, providing us with a playing card to put us on even terms with the Gallente.
The Minmatar do something very similar.

If I am incorrect, do please correct me.

"Into the dark abyss shall we venture once more." - Viktor Revon

Vikarion
Doomheim
#177 - 2015-09-16 07:35:31 UTC
Viktor Revon wrote:
If I am incorrect, do please correct me.


Just a couple of notes. First, the Caldari are rated as having the most powerful military of the four empires, which can be verified by checking the DED description of the Caldari Navy ((Or EvE Source)). Not that Tibus Heth seemed to have the first clue as to what to do with it, of course.

Second, given that the Caldari successfully held the Gallente off and established an empire without any aid from the Amarr whatsoever, it is unlikely that the Federation alone would have good odds in any fight to the death. However, it should be noted that the Federation is not alone: it has its puppet/ally (depending on who you talk to), which means that we, too, need an ally. Thus the Amarr. The Amarr are in much the same situation.

This is not to say that our alliance has absolutely no human feeling, but it is a matter of record that the Caldari are uncomfortable with the institution of slavery, even if we maintain a strict standard of non-interference in their cultural affairs. It is also true that religious Amarr seek the conversion, by force if necessary, of all in the cluster. This, of course, would be unacceptable.

Therefore, it is to the benefit of the State to maintain not only the status quo on the part of our own alliance, but also to maintain the existence of the Federation and Republic at this time. Should we acquire some technology or other edge that would allow for complete independence from any foreign entanglements, that would of course be preferable.
Ferrucio Surge
The Bag Cartel
#178 - 2015-09-16 08:19:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ferrucio Surge
Alex II wrote:


Whom do you believe you are fooling? The Witch is dead...and yes, I celebrate liberally.


I respect your right to celebrate openly, but that does not help our relations...
Alex II
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#179 - 2015-09-16 08:39:10 UTC
Viktor Revon wrote:


A Caldarian fellow, Galm Fae, is likely celebrating along with you at this time, though in separate celebrations.

Now, Kim, you might want to watch your words.
it is not that they are merciful, it's that the Gallente would be on their asses if they even tried.
Just as we, the Caldari, are not utterly wiped out by the Gallente due to the fact we have the Amarr backing us.

Almost like a stalemate you could say.

If you are a bit confused, then a simple spot.
The Caldari would be overwhelmed, due to sheer numbers.
Now, this is avoided by using the Amarr to back us, providing us with a playing card to put us on even terms with the Gallente.
The Minmatar do something very similar.

If I am incorrect, do please correct me.


Frankly, I find the fact that Matari and Caldari are at odds with one another more than a bit distressing. I am quite comfortable with the frankness and lack of desire for cultural interferance typically displayed by the Caldari culture.

Its easier for me to deal with, by far, than supposed "aid" with so many hidden strings, agendas and meddling our current allies seem to be so fond of.
Alex II
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#180 - 2015-09-16 09:05:55 UTC
Ferrucio Surge wrote:
Alex II wrote:


Whom do you believe you are fooling? The Witch is dead...and yes, I celebrate liberally.


I respect your right to celebrate openly, but that does not help our relations...



I do understand your argument here. I would call it an honorable one. But honor only holds value for those who perceive you their equals.


Until the Drifters show open malice to any but the Amarr, let them alone. If it later seems they have designs against all of New Eden there will be time enough to consider what needs to be done. And perhaps incentive enough to overcome old disagreements among the three ....

The honesty of blows from a friend are sweeter to my taste than the kisses of an enemy.