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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1301 - 2015-09-04 16:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Markus Reese wrote:
Since it got spammed out, a repeat...


Eve is a PvP environment. A farmer in a warzone does not change the fact he is a farmer, or is in a warzone. Will be involved in the war and exposed to it. Not firing a gun, but still IN the war.

A PvE player is still in a PvP environment. Therefore will be exposed to and thus part of the PvP.


Ain't that sweet, Markus Reese think he can simply get the point across by breaking the argument down to it's bare and core truth and that will mean anything to mentally unstable and lawyer like ideologues that believe up is down, and left is right.

I too remember when i thought this way Twisted
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1302 - 2015-09-04 16:32:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Regardless, NPC orders in EVE change their pricing in response to player purchase patterns.
Not all of them. Skillbooks don't. The ones that do are trade items and they bounce between set limits.

Tippia wrote:
Of course it is. It accurate excludes content and gameplay that EVE doesn't provide; it accurately puts the overarching design principle of the game in focus; it accurately describes all content in EVE; in short, it describes what EVE is at its core — all of it stuff that your attempt doesn't succeed in doing because it is too broad and unfocused.
But it does provide that content and gameplay. They have who subsections of fanfest dedicated to it.

Tippia wrote:
The difference is that in your version, you're lying and you're not providing a particularly realistic image of the other party in the conversation.
Lol? It was as realistic as yours.

Tippia wrote:
Of course it does, because unless you arrive at explaining that everything you do in the game is PvP, you have lied about the nature of the game. Any time they go “so it's like…” (which they will, trying to find some solid footing in that nondescript description), you're going to have to san “no, but…” or “kind of, except…” or something similar. It's far easier, faster, and yes more precise to just cut to the heart of the matter and state the universal truth about everything that exists in EVE: that it is PvP in one form or another. The details can be ironed out later.
Which you evidenced that they did in yours! The first question from your made up newbie was questioning if it was all PvP, which you're then like "nope".

At this point I can only surmise you are trolling. 10/10.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1303 - 2015-09-04 16:33:48 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Then they don't have the patience for the game anyway, nor will they actually like the game, so that's a good thing. And it's far better that they leave the game alone because they dislike PvP than if you convince them to join a game that consists entirely of what they dislike and then feel tricked.

If they don't keep listening when they hear it's PvP, then EVE is not a game for them. The PvE you never get to will not do them any good.

Put another way: why are you so insistent on tricking players into the game when by your own description, they will hate what the game has to offer? What's the point of the deception?
Ha! The classic "This newbie wouldn't get it anyway so he can just leave!" arrogance. And do you really wonder why the PCU is dropping like mad?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Bellatrix Invicta
Doomheim
#1304 - 2015-09-04 16:34:36 UTC
I have a dream that someday everyone in New Eden will just ignore Lucas and there will be much rejoicing. It's like debating with a block of cheese; you can talk and make points and provide proof and evidence but the cheese just sits there, saying absolutely nothing.

If you think you've won, think again.

The CODE always wins.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1305 - 2015-09-04 16:37:22 UTC
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
I have a dream that someday everyone in New Eden will just ignore Lucas and there will be much rejoicing. It's like debating with a block of cheese; you can talk and make points and provide proof and evidence but the cheese just sits there, saying absolutely nothing.
There's a hide posts button. You're welcome.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1306 - 2015-09-04 16:41:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:
Not all of them. Skillbooks don't.
Yes, all of them. Even skill books.

Quote:
But it does provide that content and gameplay.
…and all of it is PvP at the end of the day.

Quote:
Lol? It was as realistic as yours.
Not really, no. You assumed a complete understanding of your description and a complete misunderstanding of mine; I suggested a vague understanding based on previous MMO experience in both cases.

Quote:
Which you evidenced that they did in yours! The first question from your made up newbie was questioning if it was all PvP, which you're then like "nope".
No. Learn to read.

Quote:
Ha!
There's nothing “ha!” about it. Protest all you like, but the simple, indisputable, CCP-stated fact is that EVE is a PvP game. If, on hearing this, a potential player does not want to hear more, then he will not enjoy EVE. Why should he not be told what the game entails?

Honestly, your position here is absolutely nonsensical to the point of being borderline griefing. You are trying to trick people by dangling a PvE carrot in front of them when that carrot is buried deep down in the middle of a vast PvP field. You are trying to put it front and centre, when it is a pretty minor detail and inherently means all kinds of PvP that you refuse to even hint at. Why on earth should they not hear about this core design element and have it explained to them that… well… it is the core design element? What the hell is the benefit of lying to them? If there's any kind of “ha!” it is the punchline to the “gotcha!” in how you want to approach prospective players. Ugh
Salvos Rhoska
#1307 - 2015-09-04 16:45:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
I have a dream that someday everyone in New Eden will just ignore Lucas.
There's a hide posts button.

*As Colonel Kurtz (Marlon Brando) lies dying*

The irony...

The irony......

The irony.......

*cue "EVE is dead"*

*roll credits*

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Bellatrix Invicta
Doomheim
#1308 - 2015-09-04 16:47:00 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
I have a dream that someday everyone in New Eden will just ignore Lucas.
There's a hide posts button.

*As Colonel Kurtz (Marlon Brando) lies dying*

The irony...

The irony......

The irony.......


LOL, I figured he would reply with that. Thanks, that made me laugh.

If you think you've won, think again.

The CODE always wins.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1309 - 2015-09-04 16:48:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Meanwhile, in describing the game to new players, what they actually say is that “EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core”; that “once you enter New Eden you must consider every action you take as a form of PvP since this is the core game concept”; and that “The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment.”


Which is exactly how I describe and teach it to new players.

You are in a PvP, anything you do from trading and market to mission running, you can be dragged in. It could be via competition directly or a gank.

So choice, fight back, defend yourself, or be a victim. If you approach Eve PvE with the expectation you will not be pulled into a PvP situation, expect to be a victim. A person can PvE extremely effectively without being said victim... if they understand they are doing so in a pvp environment. Essentially is PvP with differnent objectives.

To analogy, imagine a PvP match where one team is an attacker, other is a defender. That is eve PvE.

In eve, lets use CODE miner protection directive. You can pay, they win PvP, or you can prevent them from ganking you while mining (heavy tanked skiffs with skirmish link support?), you win that PvP by successfully defending your objective, the mining PvE. Course there is the other PvP of a mining group more powerful than you. Suddenly you are in vs mode where the stronger and better team probably will win.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Salvos Rhoska
#1310 - 2015-09-04 16:53:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1311 - 2015-09-04 16:55:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Yes, all of them. Even skill books.
Nope. Screenshots or it never happened. I've bought thousands and thousands of skillbooks, even from orders where there's only 5, and the prices haven't changed from what is listed as their baseprice..

Tippia wrote:
…and all of it is PvP at the end of the day.
Not by most gamers definitions of the word. You've just stretched the definition.

Tippia wrote:
Not really, no. You assumed a complete understanding of your description and a complete misunderstanding of mine; I suggested a vague understanding based on previous MMO experience in both cases.
No you didn't lol, not only was there a misunderstanding of mine, it then went on to be continually misunderstood.

Tippia wrote:
No. Learn to read.
...

“EVE is a PvP game.”
“What, so it's nothing but shooting each other?”
“No, it has all the regular stuff, but..."

See, I can read.

Tippia wrote:
There's nothing “ha!” about it. Protest all you like, but the simple, indisputable, CCP-stated fact is that EVE is a PvP game. If, on hearing this, a potential player does not want to hear more, then he will not enjoy EVE. Why should he not be told what the game entails?
Because there's a lot more to EVE than PvP. To suggest that from that one reaction you can know whether or not a player is suited for the game is laughable, and that elitest arrogant attitude is why people don't like EVE.

And no, I explain in one motion that there's both PvE and PvP mixed in this sandbox of ours. You want to pretend that PvE doesn't exist. I wonder what was talked about during fanfest in the PvE panels then.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1312 - 2015-09-04 16:59:44 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Nope
Wrong. Pay attention next time.


Quote:
Not by most gamers definitions of the word. You've just stretched the definition.
Wrong. I've used the actual meaning of the term.

Quote:
See, I can read.
So you notice that what I actually said was not what you claimed, then. You were wrong.

Quote:
Because there's a lot more to EVE than PvP. To suggest that from that one reaction you can know whether or not a player is suited for the game is laughable, and that elitest arrogant attitude is why people don't like EVE.
It's not arrogant to think that if someone reacts like a cat dumped in a bathtub, which is how you envision it, to the mention of PvP will like a PvP game — you know, one like EVE.

In fact, **** it. I don’t even particularly care about the rest. You don’t understand how EVE works — we get that already. Just answer this:

“EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core.”
“[O]nce you enter New Eden you must consider every action you take as a form of PvP since this is the core game concept.”
“The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment.”
“[T]here are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.”

This is how CCP describes EVE. Why are you so adamantly against letting prospective players know this? Why should this nature be made abundantly clear in the pitch? Why would you even mention something that is wholly subordinate to this one core defining characteristic?
Salvos Rhoska
#1313 - 2015-09-04 17:01:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
Because there's a lot more to EVE than PvP. To suggest that from that one reaction you can know whether or not a player is suited for the game is laughable, and that elitest arrogant attitude is why people don't like EVE..

Lucas Kell wrote:
And no, I explain in one motion that there's both PvE and PvP mixed in this sandbox of ours. You want to pretend that PvE doesn't exist. I wonder what was talked about during fanfest in the PvE panels then.


EVE
______

Everyone vs Everyone

.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
#1314 - 2015-09-04 17:06:21 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:

Which is exactly how I describe and teach it to new players.

You are in a PvP, anything you do from trading and market to mission running, you can be dragged in. It could be via competition directly or a gank.

So choice, fight back, defend yourself, or be a victim. If you approach Eve PvE with the expectation you will not be pulled into a PvP situation, expect to be a victim. A person can PvE extremely effectively without being said victim... if they understand they are doing so in a pvp environment. Essentially is PvP with differnent objectives.



This(!) is why I rat. The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

♪ They'll always be bloodclaws to me ♫
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1315 - 2015-09-04 17:11:41 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
So then we would be in agreement that the game is both PvE and PvP? And to be quite honest, the thousands of players that PvE every single day and don't get shot suggests to me that they can avoid it quite well.


No, we don't agree.

You're again pulling a logical fallacy. (part to whole, logical fallacy of composition.) One mechanic is not proof for the whole game.

I've made a mistake too, I ignored the whole "economic competition / warfare" component of mining, though arguably one could say that you only engage in "economic competition / warfare" once you get either the ore, minerals or manufactured items to the market.

At least I touched on the competition between miners. Don't forget, that even if you decide to just mine and then destroy all mined ore, you are still competing with other miners.

You're also trying to pass examples as evidence. Being able to avoid getting shot most of the times, when there is a clear possibility of it happening, is not proof for it not being possible. And you cannot say that the game design changes from PvE to PvP the instant that an attack happens. ... or as you put it in an earlier post "the mining gets suspended" as if the PvE (as overall game design) is put on hold for a little interlude of PvP (mechanic).

Basically you're switching the frame of reference as it suits you.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1316 - 2015-09-04 17:15:58 UTC
Lfod Shi wrote:


This(!) is why I rat. The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.


This is going into my bio...
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1317 - 2015-09-04 17:58:06 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lfod Shi wrote:


This(!) is why I rat. The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.


This is going into my bio...


Mine too, and Siggie!

Is why I love exploration in nullsec. There is a thrill of antagonizing and avoiding alliances and roaming fleets full time!

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1318 - 2015-09-04 18:03:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Tippia wrote:
Wrong. Pay attention next time.
Nice proof bro. Go me @ quotes.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
M'Hael
Doomheim
#1319 - 2015-09-04 18:08:44 UTC


"I trained for a t2 cruiser, and it was just horrible long. Then I found out that I hated flying the ship, and I just gave up. No way was i going to spend months training into another ship, and maybe figure out if that ship suited me. It simply made me quit the game."

Quote from a newer player.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1320 - 2015-09-04 18:14:39 UTC
M'Hael wrote:


"I trained for a t2 cruiser, and it was just horrible long. Then I found out that I hated flying the ship, and I just gave up. No way was i going to spend months training into another ship, and maybe figure out if that ship suited me. It simply made me quit the game."

Quote from a newer player.

We should totally remove SP, just have everyone be able to fly everything.

am i doing it rite?

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3