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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1081 - 2015-09-03 00:10:45 UTC
The VC's wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
babyblue wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
Nothing is random. Analyse something enough and a person can find out why a speck of dust landed where it did. Random is just a way of saying we havent implemented the means to measure or control. Every outcome is guaranteed. We just dont bother with the information and analysis to determine it.

Even the numbers from a lottery. If you know all factors involved, you can guaranteed determine what the results will be.

Until some other physicist showed that some measurements in quantum theory are actually random and that the system would behave completely different if there actually was a way to predict the outcome of the measurement, no matter how much we may understand it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem).


Oh what a Pandora's Box you've opened.

I did not open it. That would change the content...


Big smile Highlight of this thread.

And supportive of my statement. Is just next level of understanding. Nothing and everything is random.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1082 - 2015-09-03 00:15:03 UTC
Zihao wrote:

I have to guess he's talking about something else. What do any of those changes have to do with veteran players?

New players become veterans. More intuitive NPE introduces more aspects of gameplay early on to give players a bit more buzz. By making it intuitive instead of hand holding means they have better understanding of core mechanics. That leads to better players when they stay.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1083 - 2015-09-03 00:31:11 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
And supportive of my statement. Is just next level of understanding. Nothing and everything is random.
How is explaining that your whole statement was based on a wrong assumption somehow supportive of your statement? I am not sure you understand what I wrote.
Zihao
Doomheim
#1084 - 2015-09-03 01:20:43 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Zihao wrote:

I have to guess he's talking about something else. What do any of those changes have to do with veteran players?

New players become veterans. More intuitive NPE introduces more aspects of gameplay early on to give players a bit more buzz. By making it intuitive instead of hand holding means they have better understanding of core mechanics. That leads to better players when they stay.


Seems unlikely that is what he is referring to.

Quote:

-Recent Changes to "attract new players"
Bad for veteran players
Djee Hessem
Terre Canada QUEBEC
#1085 - 2015-09-03 03:29:08 UTC
If I may add my 2 cents. As a returning player after a two years leave (unsubbed Feb 2013), my impression is that there is a drop in activity in high-sec. I was in Jita today and there was people actually chatting in local (chattin about scams BUT STILL). I could see the flow of spam has definitely reduced and system was populated with only 1000 people compared to 1500+ back then.

Saddening but I just want to say ALL IS NOT LOST. Surely, they see the feedback...

PS: If you must know, back then I quit cuz I was a risk-averse, bored and lonely care-bear. But I saw the light... now heading to FW to learn frig/dest flight

Will work for isk

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1086 - 2015-09-03 03:50:11 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
everything is random.
How is explaining that your whole statement was based on a wrong assumption somehow supportive of your statement? I am not sure you understand what I wrote.[/quote]

Simple. Bell's theorem comes down to it is impossible to perfectly predict due to variation. Therefore it is, as I stated has an element of randomness due to something that cannot be quantified. The lowest level of known science is always based on an assumption. It isn't that it is random, it simply is we are guessing how it works.

I will sum up, I really hate reading scientific articles on wikipedia. I find them terrible in presentation.

They like to run on sentences, the use of comma, however something, stated by the correctness of european grammar; semicolon, thus the continuity of speed is unbroken, as shown in previous portions of this statement, makes me sound more intellectual via use of inefficiency, thereby, for people who prefer to get to the point and present the facts, inefffective in presentation.

Drives me nuts when stuff is written like that. Wiki of course has some fantastic information, but it is horrible in presentation. Wise yoda was, speak like him so we must.

Not something I really feel like debating. The whole point of my original statement was nothing is random but only seems that way due to unknowns. As the link, in a longwinded way explains, even when we think we have every variable isolated, there can always be something to give the slightest bit of variation from an expected result. That still is not random. It is just an un-quantifiable variable. Does not mean it always will be.

Is like the old theory. It is theoretically possible for time to move backwards, but to do so would entail destruction of the universe and even still, wouldn't be a true past.


Quote:
Seems unlikely that is what he is referring to


The other stuff is pedantic stuff. This has been going on for years. CCP essentially removes stuff that becomes "manditory" that offers no value other than tedium.

Example?
Who here remembers learning skills? o/
Who here trained all of them to lvl 5? o/

There is all the stuff that busts up supercap fleets and makes it more desirable to fly nub ships now.

There is stuff that seems for "new players" but I don't see what is wrong with that. Who cares if we need frigates and trollceptors. They are counterable. Get nubs into those rolls and veterans can get back to doing what they are doing. So much whining about things not being like the old days. Funny... This topic came up elsewhere outside of eve.

"This is how we have been doing it for X years"

Good, that just means you have failed to improve for X years. Failure of improvement is fail.

"Got this much experience, we know how..."

Good, experience just means you should know better by now but dont.


Another funny out of eve example of not catering to a new market at expense of existing?

A funny little automotive line that was losing money and absolute garbage called Cadillac. General Motor Execs just absolutely insisted on building the cars they want and not what the market wanted. Result, the cars were flocking sheet, but a small quantity of old people like em. Guess what? Over ten years, they redesigned and scrapped their preconceived notions and started from scratch. They did not compromise on what they considered the name should mean, and as result, now world class vehicle again.

Eve is the same way. As a player, I am saying forget about us. Get to the freaking core of eve and start from scratch. Eve isn't about Capital ship vs Capital ship combat. It is about massive PvP. We just got use to one mechanic and some people invested everything into it. But their are some old farts in this game who just want their eve to be like their Deville. Useless trash for the new market, but is what they had before.

If that means pissing on people who made a multibox empire off a one trick pony? So be it. That one trick pony is eventually going to leave. Eve needs new blood. Press F1 combat is not going to cut it. We need combat which new player stuff is the main, and us veterans are the flagships amongst them. Epic fleet combat and sov should need a population base just like the player base. Ideally a majority of newer accounts where a good number won't stay extensively long times. Then there is a few sub command of experienced players led all by those key veterans.

Kinda like squads. FC leads WC which command squads. That is the way combat needs to be, massive fleet, squad on squad and dynamic. That isn't going to happen if they don't start from scratch. Is "Bad" for veterans, but you know what else is bad for veterans?

CCP shutting off the servers because people are more concerned with the good ol days thinking players a decade later still have the same desires.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1087 - 2015-09-03 06:52:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Zihao wrote:
I have to guess he's talking about something else. What do any of those changes have to do with veteran players?

I get the feeling he's talking more in principle (or perception) than in practice. As others have pointed out, there are basically two ways of making things easier for new players: making them more intuitive, thereby removing mechanical knowledge as an obstacle, and just making them easier, removing effort as an obstacle. In the latter case, it can conceivably be bad for old players because it means that work they've put into the game is rendered worthless, which becomes frustrating after a while.

In principle, there are a couple of changes in recent years where CCP seems to have chosen the “easy” path over the “intuitive” one — the POS and JC standings changes, for instance, or certain parts of the rejiggering of the skill tree, or even the constant vacillating over how exploration should work. Any kind of skill change, in particular, will always generate a flood of “but I trained X, and now all that SP is worthless — we demand reimbursement!” posts. In practice, however, the damage done is pretty minimal. Although it would have made more sense to make the standings grind for POSes and JCs more intuitive rather than removing it outright, at the end of the day, the entire mechanic was utterly stupid, and turning into something that would make more intuitive sense would also have required them to rip it out and re-implement it from the ground up.

The ship skill tiercide effort is the only thing that I can think of that remotely matches the “good for new players, bad for vets” description, but again in practice, it was a case of making things more intuitive rather than just easier. The ship prerequisites make far more sense now, and while there are a couple of instances here and there where you can get into a ship sooner than you could before, the thing about ships is that just having the skill itself is not enough — you need all the surrounding support stuff to make it not horrible. So in the end, those changes are so utterly minute that they don't actually make the effort any less in any meaningful way. Rather, it's an impression that you could have picked a different skill path (when the Orca got new prereqs, this was a common complaint) and not “waste SP” on ships you didn't want, or that you could have used those SP for something more interesting (when capships lost their Battleship V prereq for instance… never mind that many had been flying battleships and made use of that last skill level). Irrespective of the actual gains and losses in terms of “wasted training”, though, that period of constant change definitely caused some frustration as that feeling of “I could have trained…” kept popping up with every new patch and devblog.

Also, that said, there have been a few other skill changes that just made it easier to do, rather than easier to understand. The changes to the scanning skills comes to mind, where before there was an actual skill tree — you branched out to become better at slightly different things — there is now just a linear progression where more skill = more universal bonus. Even though you still have to train just as much to get the same bonuses, it doesn't make the tree any more intuitive, and it doesn't lower the threshold for branching out (which was the real problem). It has just become more simplistic, which might be frustrating for those who took the time to learn how the different parameters interacted.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#1088 - 2015-09-03 07:09:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Ok I know the reason why now, a part of it anyway, well a tad regarding EVE. If you look at Android apps for EVE at google play, and go to the people 'also installed' section, you notice most EVE apps show solid WoW apps numbers that people also installed. There have been a lot of people to invade EVE coming from WoW, but not just coming, but trying to co-exist (er or to cry why EVE isn't more like WoW).

Well, as many know, with the latest WoW expansion, many WoW nerds ragequit WoW, like over 3 million. I don't know why exactly, who knows? Roll but over something about not being able to use flying mounts in the newest expansion or something. Well, these cross-over players between WoW and EVE didn't just ragequit WoW, they ragequit the entire MMO genre Big smile All these mmo's are suffering now (or so they say), not just EVE, but over all mmo's interest is way down.

Many of these WoW nerds finally left the genre, and I hope... gone for evaaah!! P
Dont let teh door hit you on the way out you WoW nerds leaving the mmo genre you never gave a damn about! Pirate
This is what happens when you run TV ads to draw in players, you get a bunch of lazy couch potatoes expecting entitlement to their way of gaming or they throw tantrums before going back to the couch.
So, PCU down? Like for reals? May be a good thing.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1089 - 2015-09-03 07:33:37 UTC
Webvan wrote:
This is what happens when you run TV ads to draw in players, you get a bunch of lazy couch potatoes expecting entitlement to their way of gaming or they throw tantrums before going back to the couch. So, PCU down? Like for reals? May be a good thing.

What about those who came to EvE after "This is EvE trailer"? They bringed money needed to fuel EvE and other CCPs projects. Good or bad thing?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1090 - 2015-09-03 07:39:31 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Webvan wrote:
This is what happens when you run TV ads to draw in players, you get a bunch of lazy couch potatoes expecting entitlement to their way of gaming or they throw tantrums before going back to the couch. So, PCU down? Like for reals? May be a good thing.

What about those who came to EvE after "This is EvE trailer"?


'03 or bust Lol

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#1091 - 2015-09-03 08:14:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Webvan wrote:
This is what happens when you run TV ads to draw in players, you get a bunch of lazy couch potatoes expecting entitlement to their way of gaming or they throw tantrums before going back to the couch. So, PCU down? Like for reals? May be a good thing.

What about those who came to EvE after "This is EvE trailer"? They bringed money needed to fuel EvE and other CCPs projects. Good or bad thing?

As CCP has stated at fanfest "economy into second decade" I think it was, the predominant career by players in EVE is in the IT industry. That doesn't come from TV commercial people, buddy. I think I remember one confirmed TV commercial starting player being DMC, so that says a lot hah. But if you are speaking of that commercial, the one that ran during BSG, it obviously didn't produce the results they were after as they stopped the campaign. Most players you speak to here played games like SWG, UO, DAoC, EnB, AO and many other old school mmo's, and were already linked into mmo news and worthy games to play. Also for a time during it's greatest growth, Atari published a box to put on store shelves, which does a lot for a game. TV, yeah couch potatoes, and EVE was too hard for most of them and they left long ago... or hang around and complain about highsec being too dangerous.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

babyblue
Solo Sovereignty
#1092 - 2015-09-03 08:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: babyblue
Markus Reese wrote:
The whole point of my original statement was nothing is random but only seems that way due to unknowns. As the link, in a longwinded way explains, even when we think we have every variable isolated, there can always be something to give the slightest bit of variation from an expected result. That still is not random. It is just an un-quantifiable variable. Does not mean it always will be.


Bell's Theorem was designed to test the theory that object properties really do have actual values before they're measured (what you call unknowns - or hidden variables). Its violation in experiment means you either have to throw out localism or realism - or both. That is to say, it's not that the properties are hidden - there really aren't any before you make a measurement.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1093 - 2015-09-03 09:18:53 UTC
Are there any statistic data about average MMO player lifespan? Most of non MMO games have 10-60 hours of play. From my calculation I spend ąround 1800 hours in EvE in my 2,5 years of playing. To the point: there was a road map announced at rubicon. It was some time ago. I wonder what % of playerbase still playing from the rubicon?
There is some sort of "suspend state" of EvE. Players are wating what will emerge with new citadels, supers revamp, fozziesov.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Vorago Ignius
Chasm of Liberty
#1094 - 2015-09-03 11:41:04 UTC
EvE is such an odd beast.


My only grief, yet also fascination with EvE, is always the preparation time for something, in the end, like most mmos, it's all about, time. I have a bunch of ships I simply decked out for something, then while making an alternative ship for the same thing, I find something else to start dabble in.

Meanwhile in Elite:D I just fly around explore, bounty hunt, join random conflict zones, s I fly through the galaxy, from that alone, CCP should maybe looks at how to minimize downtime, between action/journey and preparation.

My real suggestion would be, more insane exploration sites, in all sectors, some daily minor random highsec raids by NPC factions, making mission running pull you far away from where you were, but give a higher reasonable payout for this, to make newer players get out and around more often. Create more dangerous missions in general, with rogue drones, which drops loot ect.

Give any one with limited time something very calculated to do as well.

Inbe4 casual normie.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1095 - 2015-09-03 14:04:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Zihao wrote:
I have to guess he's talking about something else. What do any of those changes have to do with veteran players?
BOOM! Mind bown


Ahh, that context. Wasnt thinking that way. The exploration one. That was a big punch in the face for me and nearly had me quit. I used to run survey sites and stuff in a solo ship out in null. Challenge was NPC guards and other players, not a minigame. Minigame part isnt so bad. Better than wait for cycles game. It also distracts a person from local. But they removed NPCs meaning ang nub with a frig and few skills can get high value stuff. Crashed the bottom out of market. Spent a week out in null using my ol scan Proteus. Barely cleared 100m. Same time invest is 500m running L4. There was one sleeper site, but didnt get it.

That change still makes me mad.

Others, such as jump clones and clone grades didnt cross my mind. I consider that just making game efficient. It is grind only to get a station or null sec. Benefited nobody that way. Everybody being able to just jump clone opens up pvp and ability to work in other empires. The "time invest" side, well I dont think anybody would complain if they had jc from start.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1096 - 2015-09-03 14:09:46 UTC
babyblue wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
The whole point of my original statement was nothing is random but only seems that way due to unknowns. As the link, in a longwinded way explains, even when we think we have every variable isolated, there can always be something to give the slightest bit of variation from an expected result. That still is not random. It is just an un-quantifiable variable. Does not mean it always will be.


Bell's Theorem was designed to test the theory that objects really do have actual properties before they're measured (what you call unknowns - or hidden variables). Its violation in experiment means you either have to throw out localism or realism - or both. That is to say, it's not that the properties are hidden - there really aren't any before you make a measurement.


...or ask the question why and answer that.

Is basis of science! They have properties. We just cannot measure it. Science isnt about getting answers, it is about asking questions. A scientist who finds answers has failed. A scientist who finds something to bring about more questions....

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1097 - 2015-09-03 14:19:40 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
babyblue wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
The whole point of my original statement was nothing is random but only seems that way due to unknowns. As the link, in a longwinded way explains, even when we think we have every variable isolated, there can always be something to give the slightest bit of variation from an expected result. That still is not random. It is just an un-quantifiable variable. Does not mean it always will be.


Bell's Theorem was designed to test the theory that objects really do have actual properties before they're measured (what you call unknowns - or hidden variables). Its violation in experiment means you either have to throw out localism or realism - or both. That is to say, it's not that the properties are hidden - there really aren't any before you make a measurement.


...or ask the question why and answer that.

Is basis of science! They have properties. We just cannot measure it. Science isnt about getting answers, it is about asking questions. A scientist who finds answers has failed. A scientist who finds something to bring about more questions....

Or you could just ramble on, ignoring what everyone else says..
Berreta Hinken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1098 - 2015-09-03 14:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Berreta Hinken
I think it's simple. The PVP needs to be better. A LOT better. I don't have a good suggestion on how to make that happen, but I think that's the core problem. They need to seriously start focusing on this. Make the PVP FUN and rewarding and dangerous.

There needs to be some rewards for pvping. And I'm not talking isk or LP. There isn't any real rewards in pvp besides posting km for bragging rights and having a green killboard.

I think if you're a pirate it should be more "official" than a -10 security rating. You should be the one who gets the pirate bpc's and gets certain benefits others don't get, at a cost. Something like that.

The game mechanic of CONCORD showing up in seconds and being immortal and insta blowing you up takes something away from the game. So does having to play a stupid mini game to take over space. Why does someone have to read an article on how to steal someones space in a "hardcore sandbox mmo"? You shoot the infastructure, it blows up. Simple. I personally like the 4 hour window. It would ensure you can't get taken over at 4am, but just take away everything else.

PVE could do with some work too. PVE is too easy and boring. You kill 10 BS in 5 mins in a cruiser hull, and whooptydoo. This is while afk. It should be much more of a "thing" to solo even a PVE BS. Hopefully they make something happen with this drifter thing.
Berreta Hinken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1099 - 2015-09-03 15:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Berreta Hinken
double post
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#1100 - 2015-09-03 15:09:21 UTC
Berreta Hinken wrote:
I think it's simple. The PVP needs to be better. A LOT better. I don't have a good suggestion on how to make that happen, but I think that's the core problem. They need to seriously start focusing on this. Make the PVP FUN and rewarding and dangerous.

There needs to be some rewards for pvping. And I'm not talking isk or LP. There isn't any real rewards in pvp besides posting km for bragging rights and having a green killboard.

I think if you're a pirate it should be more "official" than a -10 security rating. You should be the one who gets the pirate bpc's and gets certain benefits others don't get, at a cost. Something like that.

The game mechanic of CONCORD showing up in seconds and being immortal and insta blowing you up takes something away from the game. So does having to play a stupid mini game to take over space. Why does someone have to read an article on how to steal someones space in a "hardcore sandbox mmo"? You shoot the infastructure, it blows up. Simple. I personally like the 4 hour window. It would ensure you can't get taken over at 4am, but just take away everything else.


hey Big smile

you want better PVP >>>> EVE is a sandbox, create better PVP
you want concord to let you blow whoever up whenever. >>>>> null sec.
you want to be rewarded for blowing people up >>>>> bounty hunter.
you don't want to read and learn how to be better at what you do >>>>>> prepare to die a lot and fail at most thing.