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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2861 - 2015-12-13 10:50:25 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
They don't have to make massive changes at all, niche products work just fine as long as they stay true to their niche.


I did not ask for proof, but thank you...

So you belong to the group that dislikes changes.

Becaaaaauuuuuse: For some ppl some changes are big, for others not so much, depending what you are looking at.

You say:
eve = niche
niche = fine
eve = fine

So why the decreasing numbers?

Comes all back:
to *changes*

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#2862 - 2015-12-13 11:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
La Rynx wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
They don't have to make massive changes at all, niche products work just fine as long as they stay true to their niche.


I did not ask for proof, but thank you...

So you belong to the group that dislikes changes.

Becaaaaauuuuuse: For some ppl some changes are big, for others not so much, depending what you are looking at.

You say:
eve = niche
niche = fine
eve = fine

So why the decreasing numbers?

Comes all back:
to *changes*


I don't dislike changes but I see no reason to change because I like, and liked, what EVE stands for in the first place. That is why I started playing it, obviously. Why would anyone start to play a game he doesn't like and at some point demand changes to make it into something he does like? That's silly and rather dumb.

The decreasing numbers are a simple reaction of people who started playing the game, like you, while not actually LIKING the core of the game (which is dumb) and now, being the fickle pve players that they are, are looking for the next new thing. But they don't want to leave and rather see the game change. So we are back to 2009 PCU numbers because from 2009 on EVE started to attract more mainstream players and now those players, not being EVE's core customers, leave again. All perfectly in line with what I stated and not at all supported by your ideas. That and other logical explanation that have been stated throughout this thread.

EVE is going to lose customers to ED and SC but a number of those will return after having tried that new fad and realise how limited those games are/will be. And the ones that don't come back CCP would never be capable of keeping anyway because they couldn't change the game enough to make that happen. So why bother if that means diluting and alienating the customers that DO like your game.



It's not EVE's fault that you started playing a game you don't like, there is no logic for you to demand changing the game into something that you do like if that means said game has to change so drastically it loses its initial appeal from the people who DO like it. If you try Marmite and hate it, would you write a letter to that company and demand changes so that it tastes more like peanut butter?
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#2863 - 2015-12-13 11:15:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Tiberius Heth wrote:
They don't have to make massive changes at all, niche products work just fine as long as they stay true to their niche. Marmite (the brand, not the alliance) is a good example: Overall people don't like it, a vast majority wouldn't even eat it if they were paid to do so but it appeals to a specific group of customers, a group that stays loyal, doesn't really shrink and in fact actually grows because there's always new folks who tried it and actually like it. According to many people's... logic in this thread Marmite should change its recipe and taste to appeal to a majority of customers but that would mean two things:

1) it would alienate its initial customers who will stop using it
2) it would have to start competing with other, more main stream, products and as those get updated very regularly they would be forced to do the same or become forgotten


It is the same with EVE: the second CCP decides that they want to compete with other MMOs in regards to play style, f2p pricing strategy and choices, content, polish, difficulty and PVE focus is the second they are forced to forever join the rat race to update and add to the PVE part of the game to keep the fickle PVE players happy, because if they don't they'll move to the next new fad. The game isn't capable of doing that because it would require a massive rewrite, in fact it would probably be cheaper to start from scratch, and to what end? So that they will have to work harder and compete more, spending more, to get more people in? Why? What's the point?


By staying true to its niche and improving upon it, while not losing sight of its roots, the game will always attract a specific type of player which will always exist. And the more other companies do the f2p, easy mode nonsense the more people who play that will get fed up with it because they feel like they're being treated like a 5 year old and will look for something better. How many other competitors are out there? One, and that one is hilariously terrible. Build it and they will come.

By staying true to its niche EVE ensures its place amongst other MMO's and ensures slow but stable grow. Wanting some better PVE experience is fine but the whole "CCP you better turn this ship around cause I see icebergs in front of us, hell and doom awaits us!" is silly and, I would hope, no one falls for that.


There's no reason, nor point, to massively change anything at all. Update and improve yes, doing an NGE no.


Ah, but what is the /TRUE/ Marmite? The one you spread on bread? The one you drink with warm water? The one you mix with cheese or butter before spreading it?

What if the drink version was the more palatable to non-Marmiters, but the product was meaninglessly diffcult to dilute? What if the Marmite formula could be adjusted with an additive whose only impact was to ease dilution in colder water? It would be exactly the same Marmite (would taste the same, spread the same, mxi the same), but it could appeal to the "drink Marmite" market easily.

Nobody is asking that EVE "jumps out of the niche". But the niche may not be what was assumed when the Rubicon Plan was incepted. Maybe neglecting PvE, new players and highsec to favor top tier PvP as ONLY way forward was a wrong move, based on insufficient information.

EVE is a sandbox. Asking for more tools and sand so more kids can play their way is not bad for it... specially when the kids are leaving.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#2864 - 2015-12-13 11:17:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
You're not making any sense and you're grasping at straws now. You have been for a long while, in this thread.

And, as always with you it seems, a lot of lies and half truths. PVE has not been neglected at all, it's been buffed over and over for the past half decade.
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2865 - 2015-12-13 11:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
Lucas Kell wrote:
sero Hita wrote:
I did not claim otherwise. Again I was just noting that the decline in PCU seems to have stabilized in the last month. I was not stating anything about that it has not dropped. Neither do I have any interest in discussing if it dropped in the last year, as it clearly did. Learn to read people.
So pretending the last year of incredibly drops in player login counts didn't happen does what?


Where do i do this? I specifically write, that it did drop(Even in the text you cited, I made it bold)!!!! how is that pretending the last year of incredibly drops in player login counts didn't happen??? Is this some kind of sick joke, or do you not read what I wrote??

Lucas Kell wrote:

It has to do with the subject of the thread though, as it's an explanation for why CCP seem to be uninterested in reversing the trend of dropping player counts. What you feel the motivations behind his comments are is irrelevant


Well then he shouldn't reply to my post that was about something else, now should he? He could just reply to the general thread. You need to get into your thick head, that what you or Mcselling alt are discussing, is was there a drop in numbers or not? That is not what I was stating. I don't know why I have to defend someone elses opinion, that I don't agree with?

I stated that at the point of time I looked, for the last month the average PCU has been stable at 20000 online on average. A simple fact. That was it. I mentioned nothing about there has been no drop in the last year. This does not mean it has not dropped before. How you get all these other opinions, I apparently represent, meedled into this is beyond me.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2866 - 2015-12-13 11:32:01 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
They don't have to make massive changes at all, niche products work just fine as long as they stay true to their niche. Marmite (the brand, not the alliance) is a good example: Overall people don't like it, a vast majority wouldn't even eat it if they were paid to do so but it appeals to a specific group of customers, a group that stays loyal, doesn't really shrink and in fact actually grows because there's always new folks who tried it and actually like it. According to many people's... logic in this thread Marmite should change its recipe and taste to appeal to a majority of customers but that would mean two things:

1) it would alienate its initial customers who will stop using it
2) it would have to start competing with other, more main stream, products and as those get updated very regularly they would be forced to do the same or become forgotten

It is the same with EVE: the second CCP decides that they want to compete with other MMOs in regards to play style, f2p pricing strategy and choices, content, polish, difficulty and PVE focus is the second they are forced to forever join the rat race to update and add to the PVE part of the game to keep the fickle PVE players happy, because if they don't they'll move to the next new fad. The game isn't capable of doing that because it would require a massive rewrite, in fact it would probably be cheaper to start from scratch, and to what end? So that they will have to work harder and compete more, spending more, to get more people in? Why? What's the point?


By staying true to its niche and improving upon it, while not losing sight of its roots, the game will always attract a specific type of player which will always exist. And the more other companies do the f2p, easy mode nonsense the more people who play that will get fed up with it because they feel like they're being treated like a 5 year old and will look for something better. How many other competitors are out there? One, and that one is hilariously terrible. Build it and they will come.

By staying true to its niche EVE ensures its place amongst other MMO's and ensures slow but stable grow. Wanting some better PVE experience is fine but the whole "CCP you better turn this ship around cause I see icebergs in front of us, hell and doom awaits us!" is silly and, I would hope, no one falls for that.


There's no reason, nor point, to massively change anything at all. Update and improve yes, doing an NGE no.
Actually Marmite has changed it's recipe since it's initial creation, and there are variations of marmite too to cater to a wider audience. Sticking to a niche is all well and good as long as people continue to come into that niche. Remember that people don't last forever so you can't just rely on your existing consumer base lasting forever. You need to bring on new consumers and over time the interests of consumers as a whole change.

When EVE was first created gamers were different from how they are now. Now people tend to want faster access to content and won't tolerate waiting around for it anywhere near as much. As the existing playerbase grows older and finds less time to play the new playerbase needs to be embraced, and the only way to do that is to change. That doesn't mean leaving the niche, but it certainly means changing it to the point that older players may not necessary agree with all of the changes.

The problem that EVE has though is that it panders too much to the demands of the diminishing veteran playerbase, meaning that they are choking off their ability to gain newer players to keep people who are gradually leaving anyway happy. This is why I think they are going down the route of rolling out new products in the hope that eventually their commercial reliance on EVE will be low enough that they can declare it legacy and just leave it on a skeleton crew.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#2867 - 2015-12-13 11:38:26 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
When EVE was first created gamers were different from how they are now. Now people tend to want faster access to content and won't tolerate waiting around for it anywhere near as much.


Many do, some don't. the ones that don't cherish the games that cater to them. That is why it's called "niche". You're trying to use reasoning to suit your agenda.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2868 - 2015-12-13 11:41:14 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Where do i do this? I specifically write, that it did drop(Even in the text you cited, I made it bold)!!!! how is that pretending the last year of incredibly drops in player login counts didn't happen??? Is this some kind of sick joke, or do you not read what I wrote??
You stated that you have no interest in discussing the past year, only the past month. So if we look at only the past month, the decline has been minimal, sure, but that doesn't mean the game hasn't been or still isn't on decline. It's easy to chop out a tiny portion of the stats and talk about that as a trend, but if you're not going to look at a reasonable time period, what's the point? This thread is about the decline over the past year. If you only want to talk about the past month, go make another thread. Don't be getting uppity when people talk about the rest of the year.

sero Hita wrote:
Well then he shouldn't reply to my post that was about something else, now should he? He could just reply to the general thread. You need to get into your thick head, that what you or Mcselling alt are discussing, is was there a drop in numbers or not? That is not what I was stating. I don't know why I have to defend someone elses opinion, that I don't agree with?

I stated that at the point of time I looked, for the last month the average PCU has been stable at 20000 online on average. A simple fact. That was it. I mentioned nothing about there has been no drop in the last year. This does not mean it has not dropped before. How you get all these other opinions, I apparently represent, meedled into this is beyond me.
I don't really care what post he responded to, I respond the the point you made, which seem to be "This month shows little decline therefore everything is fine". Also, you're not looking at PCU, you're looking at ACU, and while it's been stable (ish) the last month, that's only because a sales drive (and potentially the mad rush to have old accounts reactivated for extra christmas presents) is offsetting the drop.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2869 - 2015-12-13 11:47:53 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
When EVE was first created gamers were different from how they are now. Now people tend to want faster access to content and won't tolerate waiting around for it anywhere near as much.
Many do, some don't. the ones that don't cherish the games that cater to them. That is why it's called "niche". You're trying to use reasoning to suit your agenda.
And you're trying to pretend that niches never shrink. The fact is that what gamers want is largely controlled by their experiences with games overall and less new gamers are interested in games like EVE than when EVE first launched as games tend to be a lot faster paced these days. Like I say, EVE can stick to it's niche, but don't be surprised if CCP move their development focus onto newer products and leave EVE with legacy support.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2870 - 2015-12-13 11:58:36 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
which seem to be "This month shows little decline therefore everything is fine".


It does no seem to be that, as i never used the word fine. Actually I am pretty sure I kept it neutral, without stating my oppinion of the trend. I was merely providing matarial for other people to discuss on, without entering it myself.
Lucas Kell wrote:

So if we look at only the past month, the decline has been minimal, sure, but that doesn't mean the game hasn't been or still isn't on decline.


Again you are putting words in my mouth. I just claimed it has been stable for a month, which you cannot dispute(At the time I looked at least). I did not say all troubles are over. It is funny how you confuse me with someone defending that the game is not in decline. All my written words states otherwise.

Lucas Kell wrote:

Also, you're not looking at PCU, you're looking at ACU, and while it's been stable (ish) the last month, that's only because a sales drive (and potentially the mad rush to have old accounts reactivated for extra christmas presents) is offsetting the drop.

First off are ACU not derived from the average of PCU? So indirectly I am looking at PCU averaged over time. Nice semantics, but it is kinda silly is it not. secondly the reason for it being stable you claim, is also just speculations, now it is not? We will see in the comming months how it fare.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#2871 - 2015-12-13 12:22:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
When EVE was first created gamers were different from how they are now. Now people tend to want faster access to content and won't tolerate waiting around for it anywhere near as much.
Many do, some don't. the ones that don't cherish the games that cater to them. That is why it's called "niche". You're trying to use reasoning to suit your agenda.
And you're trying to pretend that niches never shrink. The fact is that what gamers want is largely controlled by their experiences with games overall and less new gamers are interested in games like EVE than when EVE first launched as games tend to be a lot faster paced these days. Like I say, EVE can stick to it's niche, but don't be surprised if CCP move their development focus onto newer products and leave EVE with legacy support.


No that is not a fact at all, you just made that up to support your case. The boogieman statements aren't really working either.


I'll repeat again, really slowly this time. NOT being liked by a majority of potential customers is not a problem if you have a core of customers that are loyal to the game because the game is loyal to them while being niche enough to attract new non-standard customers. There'll always be people leaving, there'll always be people joining and overall, as history shows, EVE grows just fine.

This temporary set back is a result of external issues and because people, who didn't really like EVE's core game, now see SC and hype it to **** (as always) and now "threaten to leave if nothing changes".


BYE!
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2872 - 2015-12-13 13:35:51 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
When EVE was first created gamers were different from how they are now. Now people tend to want faster access to content and won't tolerate waiting around for it anywhere near as much.
Many do, some don't. the ones that don't cherish the games that cater to them. That is why it's called "niche". You're trying to use reasoning to suit your agenda.
And you're trying to pretend that niches never shrink. The fact is that what gamers want is largely controlled by their experiences with games overall and less new gamers are interested in games like EVE than when EVE first launched as games tend to be a lot faster paced these days. Like I say, EVE can stick to it's niche, but don't be surprised if CCP move their development focus onto newer products and leave EVE with legacy support.


The "Angst" is big in EvE...

I do not want guess to much what CCP / Hilmar will do with EvE.
CCP knows the numbers, still they bought a *new* server cluster.
Solace was repacked and is on its way to England.

Why would CCP care for what is written in this forum?
Helloooohooo, anybody home?
Every, literaly EVERY little change is acompanied by "do not like" and "change it back" threads.
So what?
You know what a requierement is to be an eve developer?
You have to be playing eve.
So calm down drink a quafe and undock!

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
Solecist Project
#2873 - 2015-12-13 13:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
*yawns*

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2874 - 2015-12-13 13:57:21 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
It does no seem to be that, as i never used the word fine. Actually I am pretty sure I kept it neutral, without stating my oppinion of the trend. I was merely providing matarial for other people to discuss on, without entering it myself.

Again you are putting words in my mouth. I just claimed it has been stable for a month, which you cannot dispute(At the time I looked at least). I did not say all troubles are over. It is funny how you confuse me with someone defending that the game is not in decline. All my written words states otherwise.
The implications of your responses were clear.

sero Hita wrote:
First off are ACU not derived from the average of PCU? So indirectly I am looking at PCU averaged over time. Nice semantics, but it is kinda silly is it not. secondly the reason for it being stable you claim, is also just speculations, now it is not? We will see in the comming months how it fare.
No, ACU is not the average of the PCU. The PCU could increase drastically while the ACU drops and vice versa.

It may be speculation, but it's educated. If the stats are stable and we are to presume that the current sales would generally increase stats (otherwise what point would there be in a sale?) and we look at the increase in created characters (which supports the increase due to the sale) then that implies that the stats without a sale would still be dropping.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2875 - 2015-12-13 14:04:50 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
No that is not a fact at all, you just made that up to support your case. The boogieman statements aren't really working either.
Lol? OK, if you say so. You can go ahead and pretend that the wants of gamers never change and that niches never shrink, I'll stick with reality thanks.

Tiberius Heth wrote:
I'll repeat again, really slowly this time. NOT being liked by a majority of potential customers is not a problem if you have a core of customers that are loyal to the game because the game is loyal to them while being niche enough to attract new non-standard customers. There'll always be people leaving, there'll always be people joining and overall, as history shows, EVE grows just fine.
And I'll repeat again really slowly this time. NOT being liked by a majority of potential customers is a problem when your existing customer base inevitably shrinks. Loyal or not, there are hundreds of reasons why veteran EVE players will stop playing EVE and they will have to be replaced. If the game doesn't move with the times to appeal to new gamers, who exactly do you expect to replace them?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#2876 - 2015-12-13 14:07:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
People who are tired of F2P clown grind games that are populated with idiots. People who have working brain cells that don't want to be treated like a dumb 5 year old.

Go play World of Tanks for a bit, I'm sure you'll understand what I mean and if you don't you're probably part of the problem.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2877 - 2015-12-13 14:10:57 UTC
La Rynx wrote:
I do not want guess to much what CCP / Hilmar will do with EvE.
CCP knows the numbers, still they bought a *new* server cluster.
Solace was repacked and is on its way to England.
They may have bought a new server cluster but there can be alot of reasons for that. It could be that they want to expand other products to run from shared hardware. It could be that introducing newer hardware allows them to reduce running costs over time, so the game can run longer on a lower cut of the budget. It could be as simple as with many companies that periodically replacing hardware results in reduced costs from maintenance suppliers. We replace much of our hardware every 5 years or so as it's cheaper to do that than pay to upkeep old hardware.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2878 - 2015-12-13 14:12:07 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
People who are tired of F2P clown grind games that are populated with idiots. People who have working brain cells that don't want to be treated like a dumb 5 year old.

Go play World of Tanks for a bit, I'm sure you'll understand what I mean and if you don't you're probably part of the problem.
It's very telling that you consider yourself so superior to other gamers. Still doesn't change a reality of what game developers have to cater to.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#2879 - 2015-12-13 14:15:29 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
People who are tired of F2P clown grind games that are populated with idiots. People who have working brain cells that don't want to be treated like a dumb 5 year old.

Go play World of Tanks for a bit, I'm sure you'll understand what I mean and if you don't you're probably part of the problem.
It's very telling that you consider yourself so superior to other gamers. Still doesn't change a reality of what game developers have to cater to.


I consider myself, and many others with me, to not be the target audience of most games. As such we will focus on the games that treat us differently.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2880 - 2015-12-13 14:32:20 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
People who are tired of F2P clown grind games that are populated with idiots. People who have working brain cells that don't want to be treated like a dumb 5 year old.

Go play World of Tanks for a bit, I'm sure you'll understand what I mean and if you don't you're probably part of the problem.
It's very telling that you consider yourself so superior to other gamers. Still doesn't change a reality of what game developers have to cater to.
I consider myself, and many others with me, to not be the target audience of most games. As such we will focus on the games that treat us differently.
Indeed, but you also evidently consider yourself to be better than other gamers. As much as you may believe that, developers will focus on making money more than satisfying the desires of delusional gamers with superiority complexes.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.