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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Jade Blackwind
#2441 - 2015-10-27 14:52:09 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Ouch.

RvB was one of the few places in Eve where a newbie could just jump in a cheap ship and have some quick PvP against a comparable opponent, without significant time investment and basically with no requirements whatsoever.

I was there and I had fun.

Sad times.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#2442 - 2015-10-27 14:57:10 UTC
There you go, you are getting what you want: more PvE content. Eve is saved.

Looks like CCP is going to double down on the dynamic and challenging PvE content the Drifters started to hint at. Soon(-ish) NPCs will be shooting and ganking players even in highsec, thus shaking them out of their Netflix-induced comas, at least a bit. Mission AI will get a lot better and dynamic, the Sansha Incursions will be replaced by the more riskier Drifter Incursions, and highsec will start to retreat from the "peak safety" we have just reached.

The strategy is clear: if you can't let players provide the risk, at least let the NPCs try to do the job. Player-driven risk is better for many reasons, but I get that CCP has to take into account the psychology of some players who cannot handle losing a ship to another player. Eve will be a more dynamic and interesting place which will hopefully produce increased and lengthened retention. The increased destruction will stimulate the economy and increased the demand for resources and production.

We'll have to wait and see what CCP can deliver.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2443 - 2015-10-27 15:25:42 UTC
There you go, you are getting what you want: more PvE content. Eve is saved.

Looks like CCP is going to double down on the dynamic and challenging PvE content the Drifters started to hint at. Soon(-ish) NPCs will be shooting and ganking players even in highsec, thus shaking them out of their Netflix-induced comas, at least a bit. Mission AI will get a lot better and dynamic, the Sansha Incursions will be replaced by the more riskier Drifter Incursions, and highsec will start to retreat from the "peak safety" we have just reached.

The strategy is clear: if you can't let players provide the risk, at least let the NPCs try to do the job. Player-driven risk is better for many reasons, but I get that CCP has to take into account the psychology of some players who cannot handle losing a ship to another player. Eve will be a more dynamic and interesting place which will hopefully produce increased and lengthened retention. The increased destruction will stimulate the economy and increased the demand for resources and production.

We'll have to wait and see what CCP can deliver.
[/quote]

I think far too many people over the years underestimate the mental impact of a solid PvE experience. Solid PvE is probably one of the best tools to encourage PvP. The issue with Eve's PvE combat experience is that it has been so divergent from combat PvP. Things like the burner missions for example, while difficult, still are not a good example. They do not allow tactics. Ship is fit specifically to counter what mission tells you. Accel gate forces you to a range, and done. It takes all meaningful control and choice from the players.

Bring in things like capitals into missions, have it so that a new player can feel the role of being a new player in a larger fleet. Combine with pvp mechanics changes to encourage a diverse fleet composition and suddenly new players will want to play that way.

Best means of retention? Make a new player feel like a part of the team.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#2444 - 2015-10-27 16:30:46 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
competition between players - that means the ability to interfere and dominate others.
No it doesn't. I can't interfere and dominate a player in a 100m sprint, javelin on weight lifting. I do my bit, they do theirs and the winner is who did better by the measure of the specific competition.


That's the point we're arguing about. Competition can be limited as in your examples of sports. But if you want a simulation of politics between nations, the competition must be as unlimited as possible. Think cold war USA vs USSR times. Several times they were on the brink of flinging atombombs at each other in sufficient quantities to wipe mankind out of existence. That's the kind of unbounded competition we're talking about.

Lucas Kell wrote:

Black Pedro wrote:
now awoxing has been removed
No it hasn't.
There's an off switch to corp member vs corp member fighting. That pretty much makes awoxing almost impossible.

Lucas Kell wrote:

Personally I think it's lack of depth to most game mechanics and a moronic notion that everything should be disruptable by a drunken vets alt in a catalyst.


Games have three choices to make engaging enemies:
- write good AI, which is difficult because the AI is faster than humans possibly can be but also less creative.
- add randomness to spice things up, which doesn't change the AI but makes it less predictable
- replace AI with human intelligence. This one allows you to play chess without electricity or any electronic components, that's how powerful human intelligence is compared to AI.

From the start EvE was designed around pitting human intelligence vs human intelligence. Whether it was to find the best mining spot, build the most lucrative items or ship combat, you were always challenged by other humans. The little AI interaction here and there has never been particularly surprising or engaging.

Human interaction, both cooperative and adverserial have been at the core of EvE since the beginning. The amount of interaction possible is bound by game mechanics. In 0.0 it is as free as it can possibly get and in high-sec it is necessarily restricted to a level tolerable to new players, and yet free enough to be challenging.

Furthermore EvE functions as one world. This means that actions in one place impact other places too. What happens in high-sec is not limited to high-sec. Anything that creates ISK or spawns items has an impact on EvE as a hole. Anything that imprints a certain way of thinking of how game mechanics in EvE work, impacts EvE as a hole.

Those two things are the reasons why WH, null-sec, low-sec players don't want to see high-sec become a place that has nothing to do with EvE anymore. I'm thinking of the image new players get of EvE as a hole, when high-sec is necessarily the first place they experience. It's in high-sec where they get recruited and thaught by high-sec corporations how to live in high-sec.

The feeling is that you guys want to permeate high-sec mechanics and mentality at the detriment of the other regions. You don't hurt the other places on purpose. Likewise every region has people who only look after their own interests.

All this could be resolved by keeping an open mind and discussing things. You Lucas, unfortunately, are not open to other people's viewpoints.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#2445 - 2015-10-27 20:53:38 UTC
Quote:
CCP Affinity's reimagined standings system will also have dire consequences for players who delve in deep for or against certain factions. One example given was that wormholers may find that the price of that blue loot is no longer worth it when they are being hunted down in highsec by Sleepers and Drifters. According to CCP Affinity, these are logical and perhaps inevitable possibilities . On the flip side, CCP would also like you to be friendlier with pirate factions in Eve, and enjoy more benefits than just high-value LP. Ideally, there will be engaging ways to gain favour with the pirates; perhaps not “defend belt rats from Capsuleers” missions, but a straight “give corpses to Blood Raiders, get Blood Raider SKINs” trade could be implemented.



Hey CCP, you want players to be friendly with pirate factions in such manner as having a "good reason" to (meaning: get LP for weeks or just buy the darned faction ship)?

Here's an idea.

In Templar One, there was much reference to the Morse getting into out of nullsec and lowsec. And every time I was wondering "So how come they didn't get bubbled and blobbed to death and therefore no more story? "

It's obvious that the pirate factions have their own gate networks.

So if you really want players getting in bed with pirates, put in gate networks that cross all of New Eden and players with the right standings can use them to go anywhere. This means alternate routes of travel, past the gank pipelines, and even another tool to deal with jump fatigue. Make camping these gates cost standings, and go with that "patrol" concept too to keep them clear. Heck, see to it that the pirate factions actively provide better security on their own routes (meaning they don't get bubble-camped to death). Alternate means of travel without having to be a member of the 2 or 3 alliances. Wonderful addition to wormhole travel.


Overall based on the article it would appear that CCP intends to make PVe something quite extraordinary. Considering how Eve was always touted as a "PVP game", and the dropoff in numbers, it's looking like the PVP model is failing.
(Well, duh! I've seen all-PVP games where newbros have hordes of people with nothing better to do just waiting for new people to gank every two minutes. I can't remember the names of those games, and for this reason)

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#2446 - 2015-10-27 23:31:00 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Quote:
CCP Affinity's reimagined standings system will also have dire consequences for players who delve in deep for or against certain factions. One example given was that wormholers may find that the price of that blue loot is no longer worth it when they are being hunted down in highsec by Sleepers and Drifters. According to CCP Affinity, these are logical and perhaps inevitable possibilities . On the flip side, CCP would also like you to be friendlier with pirate factions in Eve, and enjoy more benefits than just high-value LP. Ideally, there will be engaging ways to gain favour with the pirates; perhaps not “defend belt rats from Capsuleers” missions, but a straight “give corpses to Blood Raiders, get Blood Raider SKINs” trade could be implemented.



Hey CCP, you want players to be friendly with pirate factions in such manner as having a "good reason" to (meaning: get LP for weeks or just buy the darned faction ship)?

Here's an idea.

In Templar One, there was much reference to the Morse getting into out of nullsec and lowsec. And every time I was wondering "So how come they didn't get bubbled and blobbed to death and therefore no more story? "

It's obvious that the pirate factions have their own gate networks.

So if you really want players getting in bed with pirates, put in gate networks that cross all of New Eden and players with the right standings can use them to go anywhere. This means alternate routes of travel, past the gank pipelines, and even another tool to deal with jump fatigue. Make camping these gates cost standings, and go with that "patrol" concept too to keep them clear. Heck, see to it that the pirate factions actively provide better security on their own routes (meaning they don't get bubble-camped to death). Alternate means of travel without having to be a member of the 2 or 3 alliances. Wonderful addition to wormhole travel.


Overall based on the article it would appear that CCP intends to make PVe something quite extraordinary. Considering how Eve was always touted as a "PVP game", and the dropoff in numbers, it's looking like the PVP model is failing.
(Well, duh! I've seen all-PVP games where newbros have hordes of people with nothing better to do just waiting for new people to gank every two minutes. I can't remember the names of those games, and for this reason)



Oh come on... stop it with the good suggestions. I mean what are you trying to do? Get Jenn to come here and tell you how you are playing her game wrong and since you don't like her game you have to leave?

Your last point, I can think of a couple. Anarchy and Perpetuum were both examples of what games would look like if they were just like Eve only 100% pvp... extinct.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
#2447 - 2015-10-28 01:50:38 UTC
Its 2015. CCP please. :) Get real. No sizeable amount of people will turn to this game and stay just to find they got nothing to do but put up with harrassement. Not now, not ever.

You want people? Make this game fun. And it better not be the "I reap tears and woe" sort. It needs to be normal people fun. Make room for folks that just wont stand the trolling of gankers who cant handle not being the center of everyones attention and efforts in a sandbox game.

Love
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2448 - 2015-10-28 06:36:11 UTC
If CCP is to get players the emphasis must be on safety. Safety is what drives PvP because the perception of safety means more targets. As long as carebear player A thinks it's too risky to operate in a PvP environment he won't go out there and risk himself.

The gate travel system is a good place to start. Players spawn at 15 km, well within range of even a basic long point. The power of ships, especially in terms of tackling has increased from a short 14km to up to 100's of kilometres around gates yet the mechanics in terms of ship spawn ranges has not increased at all.

Interceptors are useless for the average carebear wanting to operate in unsafe space.

Make travel safer and you increase numbers of travellers, increase numbers of travellers and you increase the chances of PvP. The up side of this also is as travel becomes safer the skill requirement to tackle targets increases from mindless gate camping as a blob to roaming and out thinking your adversary.

The other side of the coin of course is a requirement to provide areas attractive to carebears where they can be interdicted occasionally and where escape is a little harder than stay aligned and warp whenever someone enters system.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Lieu Thiesant
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2449 - 2015-11-03 00:12:49 UTC
So, how does it go back up?
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#2450 - 2015-11-03 00:49:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Its 2015. CCP please. :) Get real. No sizeable amount of people will turn to this game and stay just to find they got nothing to do but put up with harrassement. Not now, not ever.

You want people? Make this game fun. And it better not be the "I reap tears and woe" sort. It needs to be normal people fun. Make room for folks that just wont stand the trolling of gankers who cant handle not being the center of everyones attention and efforts in a sandbox game.

Love


If you think ganking is harassment you really picked the wrong game...it's a sandbox, as you said yourself, if you can't kick people sandcastles over it's a crap sandbox. What does the date have to do with anything anyway ? People have been turning up to EvE and "putting up with " ganking, scamming, wardecs and anything else since 2003, why does the current date mean that all of a sudden, people can't cope with this.

Truth is you don't like it, you picked the wrong game but rather than move on, you expect everyone to have to change for you. Don't hold your breath.
Klas Kanjus
Doomheim
#2451 - 2015-11-03 02:08:43 UTC
37k players on yesterday. 30k on today during middle afternoon US on a Monday.

Yup. EvE's dead can't you tell.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#2452 - 2015-11-03 07:49:47 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

You should compare this year's data with past years, for the same periods. Also cover both peaks and valleys in average (summer being slow, February being the peak of the year)

Like:

2015 average, January to August: 33k (-7k)
2014 average, January to August: 40k (-7k)
2013 average, January to August: 47k (+6k)
2012 average, January to August: 41k (-4k)
2011 average, January to August: 45k (+1k)
2010 average, January to August: 44k (+3k)
2009 average, January to August: 41k (+8k)
2008 average, January to August: 33k (+5k)
2007 average, January to August: 28k (+6k)
2006 average, January to August: 21k (+10k)
2005 average, January to August: 11k (+3k)
2004 average, January to August: 08k



"Don't forget to update that list, honey", she said. Well, If I made any mistakes, blame it on Ishtanchuk... (=`ェ´=)

2015 average, January to September: 32k (-7k)
2014 average, January to September: 39k (-7k)
2013 average, January to September: 46k (+5k)
2012 average, January to September: 41k (-3k)
2011 average, January to September: 44k (=)
2010 average, January to September: 44k (+3k)
2009 average, January to September: 41k (+8k)
2008 average, January to September: 33k (+5k)
2007 average, January to September: 28k (+6k)
2006 average, January to September: 22k (+11k)
2005 average, January to September: 11k (+3k)
2004 average, January to September: 08k


And now, upated for October:

2015 average, January to October: 32k (-7k)
2014 average, January to October: 39k (-7k)
2013 average, January to October: 46k (+5k)
2012 average, January to October: 41k (-3k)
2011 average, January to October: 44k (=)
2010 average, January to October: 44k (+3k)
2009 average, January to October: 41k (+8k)
2008 average, January to October: 33k (+5k)
2007 average, January to October: 28k (+6k)
2006 average, January to October: 22k (+11k)
2005 average, January to October: 11k (+3k)
2004 average, January to October: 08k

We should see a small bump in November and then some lows in December.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#2453 - 2015-11-03 12:48:36 UTC
Klas Kanjus wrote:
37k players on yesterday. 30k on today during middle afternoon US on a Monday.

Yup. EvE's dead can't you tell.



On the last day of a crazy event where people were making billions off silly implants.

Get back to me next week.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Avvy
Doomheim
#2454 - 2015-11-03 13:02:25 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Klas Kanjus wrote:
37k players on yesterday. 30k on today during middle afternoon US on a Monday.

Yup. EvE's dead can't you tell.



On the last day of a crazy event where people were making billions off silly implants.

Get back to me next week.



These discussions don't really prove much.

With the introduction of skill queues longer than 24 hours, players don't need to log in so frequently. Although of course that doesn't effect older characters where the skill times are so long anyway.

I myself log in usually a couple of times a week, normally just to see what point the skill queue is at and to organise the next book to be added to my skills.

It's active accounts that count.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2455 - 2015-11-03 13:04:16 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Klas Kanjus wrote:
37k players on yesterday. 30k on today during middle afternoon US on a Monday.

Yup. EvE's dead can't you tell.



On the last day of a crazy event where people were making billions off silly implants.

Get back to me next week.



These discussions don't really prove much.

With the introduction of skill queues longer than 24 hours, players don't need to log in so frequently. Although of course that doesn't effect older characters where the skill times are so long anyway.

I myself log in usually a couple of times a week, normally just to see what point the skill queue is at and to organise the next book to be added to my skills.

It's active accounts that count.


so you dont login to play the game? Shocked

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

kommer
Riemannian Manifold Torus
#2456 - 2015-11-03 13:12:59 UTC
What is killing this game is a 40k man coalition that circle jerks itself, jump fatigue, fozzie sov, and trying to deevolve combat to local pockets rather than multi regional conflict. So half the people in space are friends and the other half have to take a million gates to get to each other.
Avvy
Doomheim
#2457 - 2015-11-03 13:16:24 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Klas Kanjus wrote:
37k players on yesterday. 30k on today during middle afternoon US on a Monday.

Yup. EvE's dead can't you tell.



On the last day of a crazy event where people were making billions off silly implants.

Get back to me next week.



These discussions don't really prove much.

With the introduction of skill queues longer than 24 hours, players don't need to log in so frequently. Although of course that doesn't effect older characters where the skill times are so long anyway.

I myself log in usually a couple of times a week, normally just to see what point the skill queue is at and to organise the next book to be added to my skills.

It's active accounts that count.


so you dont login to play the game? Shocked


Presently no I don't. The most I do is fly to a station to pick up a book, in fact did that the other day, 2 stations 2 books (small railgun spec and small blaster spec).

GW2 is my main game at the moment but as my characters are all maxed out there, a lot of it is just repetition so eventually I'll start to get bored with it. So this may become the main one at that time or when I think this character is ready.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2458 - 2015-11-03 13:20:30 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Its 2015. CCP please. :) Get real. No sizeable amount of people will turn to this game and stay just to find they got nothing to do but put up with harrassement. Not now, not ever.

You want people? Make this game fun. And it better not be the "I reap tears and woe" sort. It needs to be normal people fun. Make room for folks that just wont stand the trolling of gankers who cant handle not being the center of everyones attention and efforts in a sandbox game.

Love


If you think ganking is harassment you really picked the wrong game...it's a sandbox, as you said yourself, if you can't kick people sandcastles over it's a crap sandbox. What does the date have to do with anything anyway ? People have been turning up to EvE and "putting up with " ganking, scamming, wardecs and anything else since 2003, why does the current date mean that all of a sudden, people can't cope with this.

Truth is you don't like it, you picked the wrong game but rather than move on, you expect everyone to have to change for you. Don't hold your breath.


Hell yea, well said.

I'm stuck by that posters use fot he words 'normal people'. Normal people suck and this guy (and the entire "Eve is dying/fix the game to be something i like" crowd) are basically demanding that CCP sell out on what has made this game great and kept it alive for more than a decade when most MMOs fold in less than half that time..

How intensely short sighted and selfish can they be? If they think that games that 'normal people' like, why not go play those and let the rest of us get on with things here? Not that I don't appreciate 'hater money' (cash from people who hate EVE but keep playing anyways, whose names tend to end either in "Fazmarai" or "alt" lol)
Doddy
Excidium.
#2459 - 2015-11-03 17:10:55 UTC
Mir Jana wrote:
I was wondering about something...

January 2014 - average was 41k online
June 2014 - average was 32k online
December 2014 - average was 27k online
May 2015 - average was 21k online
August 2015 - average is 16k online

today I logged in at 14793 online.....

What can CCP do to re-build its populace cause obviously something is rotten in the state of Iceland...?


Where are you getting these figures? they don't look right at all.
Doddy
Excidium.
#2460 - 2015-11-03 17:14:00 UTC
zzzra wrote:
Monthly fee is the problem IMO.
So much free to play competition, and some aren't pay to win.
Not sure how you make the skill training system and free to play compatible tho.


Free to play, pay to train.