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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Black Pedro
Mine.
#2401 - 2015-10-26 15:46:48 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
So all you are saying is most PVP players utilize most of their accounts and characters for something other than PVP... which kind of proves my point.

Of course. Players that just run around only engaging in ship PvP are the vast minority. The largest category of players do a bit of everything, including ship PvP. Most of their characters do something else other than direct ship combat, usually to provide the war materials necessary for their PvP character.

Eve Online is specifically designed so you need to spend time gather resources and doing industry - but all of that is to support the PvP. There is no point in gathering all these resources and doing industry to build stuff with them if there is no demand to use them (and lose them) in ship PvP encounters. The game, and its player-driven economy, absolutely rely on this. Without this demand, all you would have is the shallow and NPC-controlled market found in Elite: Dangerous.

The game is literally founded on a central idea of a PvP sandbox. The fact that players have to do other things like PvE and industry to facilitate that PvP does not mean it is not first and foremost a PvP game.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2402 - 2015-10-26 15:47:44 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
From Eve Vegas Economic presentation:

Quote:
>Of everyone who logged in,
83.5 Warp
80.4% dock
72.9% use market
40.7% join fleets
29.5% warp (null)
25.9% use accel gates
24.8% warp (lowsec)
22.4% mine
19.2% run missions
14.9% do industry
13.1% warp (w-space)
13.8% do PVP
8.5% Hack
1.5% run incursions
1.1% courier contracts


Eve is clearly NOT a pvp game. Don't care how you slice it.

Just to be clear, you are misinterpreting these numbers. These numbers are per character, not per player. Unless I misunderstood, they are the percent of characters that logged last month that engaged in each of those criteria criteria. Each account has three characters, and many players have multiple accounts so of course only a small fraction of each player's characters engaged in PvP during that month.

Multiply that number by 3 characters per account and the average of 1.7 accounts per player CCP Quant gave us previously and you get a number of ~70% of players engaging in ship PvP. This is likely too high as not every character on account is logged in each month (or even created), and some players have multiple PvP characters. But we don't need to guess CCP Quant already told us at the Fanfest keynote that (if you ignore the "social" players who use Eve as a IM client) ~40-50% of the player base regularly engages in PvP. If you consider firing your modules even once during the month at another player PvP (like the statistic you are citing), I would think 60-70% is not unreasonable.

Eve was conceived, designed and is still developed as a PvP game. Pretty much every player engages in some sort of PvP, and probably the majority of them shoot another player's ship at least once per month on at least one of their characters. Citing a statistic that pretty much just says that players tend to specialize only one of their characters for ship PvP, rather than having multiple alts for industry and mining, does not prove that Eve is not a PvP game.



That is just dumb. It doesn't matter if they are per character or per player... they are all measured on the same level.

So 13.8% of players or 13.8% of characters doesn't matter because it is compared to the same metric.

So all you are saying is most PVP players utilize most of their accounts and characters for something other than PVP... which kind of proves my point.


can you give some more details on how those numbers are calculated?

13.8% do pvp what does that mean?

13.8% of 33,486 (example of last weekends number) 4621 players do pvp, there is far more pvpers than that

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Black Pedro
Mine.
#2403 - 2015-10-26 15:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Lan Wang wrote:

can you give some more details on how those numbers are calculated?

13.8% do pvp what does that mean?

13.8% of 33,486 (example of last weekends number) 4621 players do pvp, there is far more pvpers than that

I believe, and you would have to confirm this with CCP Quant, that 13.8% is the percentage of characters that logged in during the month of September that fired an offensive module at another player.

I know that only 2 of my 9 (22%) characters that logged in would fit that criteria last month or pretty much any month.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2404 - 2015-10-26 15:53:08 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


Most MMO players do this, which is why most MMOs are basically "single player games with other people around as scenery". It's why people come to EVE after playing other MMOs, expecting CCP to erect a game-mechancis wall between them and other players (like those other MMOs do with 'pvp flags' and sharded servers), and then feel violated because no such wall exists.

In fairness, CCP doesn't do enough to tell people "you don't have the same protections in this game as in others you may be used to, here your wits are your protection", but lots and lots of people who come to EVE aren't the type to do any research either. They think all MMOs are the same and EVE hits them in the face like a splash of cold water.

BTW this is why I think it's fairly foolish for CCP to spend it's marketing dollars advertising on sites visited by MMO gamers, MMO players are generally horrible and have some of the most insane and nonsensical standards and expectations (like "is it too late to catch up?" of any group/division of gamers IMO.


I like these comments. It is one that I bring up in code. discussions. People are entering the world. To get players in, CCP tends to sell a quite false picture of what eve is like. The best trailers were ones a few years back. Dominion, causality, and butterfly effect. They very clearly show that eve is about interaction and it can be a harsh place.

People are entering the eve universe. From before their character is even created, there should be an introduction. Something that really says what a capsuleer is. Tell the player directly that they are transcending borders beyond the control of the empires. Let them know it is harsh, rewarding, blah blah, a short three minute first person intro video.

Like you, advertisement. Getting the correct message across, and connecting it to people not already heavily into online gaming is where it is at. Eve is a game about patience and extremely social. Best for people who do not have time for heavy marathon gaming sessions, or want their own pace.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2405 - 2015-10-26 15:56:34 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:


can you give some more details on how those numbers are calculated?

13.8% do pvp what does that mean?

13.8% of 33,486 (example of last weekends number) 4621 players do pvp, there is far more pvpers than that


That meant that at the peak of last weekend, a total of 4621 accounts that do combat pvp actually were logged in at one time. There are more than 33486 total accounts logged in over the weekend. Or was the total characters for whole weekend logged in a 33486. That is kinda scary.

If it was the latter, how do you know? Has there been any big fights? Look at actual alliance sizes, consider how many people in those alliances actually fight, suddenly the number is not so farfetched..

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#2406 - 2015-10-26 16:05:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
Markus Reese wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:


can you give some more details on how those numbers are calculated?

13.8% do pvp what does that mean?

13.8% of 33,486 (example of last weekends number) 4621 players do pvp, there is far more pvpers than that


That meant that at the peak of last weekend, a total of 4621 accounts that do combat pvp actually were logged in at one time. There are more than 33486 total accounts logged in over the weekend. Or was the total characters for whole weekend logged in a 33486. That is kinda scary.

If it was the latter, how do you know? Has there been any big fights? Look at actual alliance sizes, consider how many people in those alliances actually fight, suddenly the number is not so farfetched..



According to quant the percentage numbers were the % of unique logons that activated any offensive module against a non-npc target...

So, of the 300k+ subscribed accounts, 13.8% of them had at least one character that used an offensive module against a player or pos.

Which would mean roughly 41k give or take accounts do pvp action.

Several times it appears he pointed out UNIQUE LOGONS... I don't think he was talking about characters or players, but the actual accounts.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Eternal Bob
Doomheim
#2407 - 2015-10-26 16:16:29 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
So all you are saying is most PVP players utilize most of their accounts and characters for something other than PVP... which kind of proves my point.

Of course. Players that just run around only engaging in ship PvP are the vast minority. The largest category of players do a bit of everything, including ship PvP. Most of their characters do something else other than direct ship combat, usually to provide the war materials necessary for their PvP character.

Eve Online is specifically designed so you need to spend time gather resources and doing industry - but all of that is to support the PvP. There is no point in gathering all these resources and doing industry to build stuff with them if there is no demand to use them (and lose them) in ship PvP encounters. The game, and its player-driven economy, absolutely rely on this. Without this demand, all you would have is the shallow and NPC-controlled market found in Elite: Dangerous.

The game is literally founded on a central idea of a PvP sandbox. The fact that players have to do other things like PvE and industry to facilitate that PvP does not mean it is not first and foremost a PvP game.


But if only a minority of the playerbase are engaging in PvP combat, then surely the proportion of ships and other items lost as a consequence of PvP combat must be relatively small also? (I'm assuming this, I don't know if there is any specific data on it). Which means the resource gathering, the production, the trading, the hauling etc is done mostly to support PvE activities.

Biomassing to free a char slot.

Black Pedro
Mine.
#2408 - 2015-10-26 16:56:55 UTC
Eternal Bob wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
So all you are saying is most PVP players utilize most of their accounts and characters for something other than PVP... which kind of proves my point.

Of course. Players that just run around only engaging in ship PvP are the vast minority. The largest category of players do a bit of everything, including ship PvP. Most of their characters do something else other than direct ship combat, usually to provide the war materials necessary for their PvP character.

Eve Online is specifically designed so you need to spend time gather resources and doing industry - but all of that is to support the PvP. There is no point in gathering all these resources and doing industry to build stuff with them if there is no demand to use them (and lose them) in ship PvP encounters. The game, and its player-driven economy, absolutely rely on this. Without this demand, all you would have is the shallow and NPC-controlled market found in Elite: Dangerous.

The game is literally founded on a central idea of a PvP sandbox. The fact that players have to do other things like PvE and industry to facilitate that PvP does not mean it is not first and foremost a PvP game.


But if only a minority of the playerbase are engaging in PvP combat, then surely the proportion of ships and other items lost as a consequence of PvP combat must be relatively small also? (I'm assuming this, I don't know if there is any specific data on it). Which means the resource gathering, the production, the trading, the hauling etc is done mostly to support PvE activities.

No, I would be surprised if not practically all losses occur during PvP combat rather than during PvE (well at least at the hands of the NPCs). Players that engage primarily in harvesting and building trade those items to the PvPers for use. Those that avoid PvP must just play the game to amass wealth that they use to more efficiently build/harvest things, or that just sits in their wallet/hanger (CCP Quant also commented on this phenomenon of ISK accumulation in his presentation). Some of it is also traded to other players via the PLEX mechanism so the grinders do not have to pay for their game time.

PvE has no continuing cost (aside from ammo). Mining never had any real NPC risk, and missions and incursions have been completely min/maxed for years that ship loss is rare for anyone but the newest of players who fly cheap ships anyway. Perhaps the Drifters will change things when they reappear, but right now only PvP losses are keeping the economy moving and have been for most of Eve's history.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#2409 - 2015-10-26 16:59:47 UTC
Eternal Bob wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
So all you are saying is most PVP players utilize most of their accounts and characters for something other than PVP... which kind of proves my point.

Of course. Players that just run around only engaging in ship PvP are the vast minority. The largest category of players do a bit of everything, including ship PvP. Most of their characters do something else other than direct ship combat, usually to provide the war materials necessary for their PvP character.

Eve Online is specifically designed so you need to spend time gather resources and doing industry - but all of that is to support the PvP. There is no point in gathering all these resources and doing industry to build stuff with them if there is no demand to use them (and lose them) in ship PvP encounters. The game, and its player-driven economy, absolutely rely on this. Without this demand, all you would have is the shallow and NPC-controlled market found in Elite: Dangerous.

The game is literally founded on a central idea of a PvP sandbox. The fact that players have to do other things like PvE and industry to facilitate that PvP does not mean it is not first and foremost a PvP game.


But if only a minority of the playerbase are engaging in PvP combat, then surely the proportion of ships and other items lost as a consequence of PvP combat must be relatively small also? (I'm assuming this, I don't know if there is any specific data on it). Which means the resource gathering, the production, the trading, the hauling etc is done mostly to support PvE activities.



More interesting

zKillboard thread

7k PLAYERS did over 50% of all destruction in the entire game last year...

500k players were either victims or attackers... the important part is VICTIMS

This goes to support the idea that a markedly small minority PVP, and that a majority or at least half of players are victims...

Eve is not safe, anywhere at any time... but it still isn't a PVP game. PVP is a part of the environment for most players it seems.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#2410 - 2015-10-26 17:03:25 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:


PvE has no continuing cost (aside from ammo). Mining never had any real NPC risk, and missions and incursions have been completely min/maxed for years that ship loss is rare for anyone but the newest of players who fly cheap ships anyway. Perhaps the Drifters will change things when they reappear, but right now only PvP losses are keeping the economy moving and have been for most of Eve's history.


Interesting... and how very very wrong.

The largest isk sinks in the game are from Missions and skillbooks. Skillbooks are shared between pvp and pve, and are not mutually exclusive. But Missions sink as much isk as they generate in rewards and bonuses.

Also, given that production and destruction were about equal last year, but zKillboard doesn't show enough destruction to cover, one has to assume the rest of the destruction was from NPCs and not appearing on killboards.

So PVE generates a ton of asset destruction, and you are wrong.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

jedi2015
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2411 - 2015-10-26 17:57:43 UTC
you should check out over the years the RL money coming on over the years through plexes , which can be approximated by the amount on sell orders of plex that can be viewed on http://www.eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=29668#history ? and check that vs the rising plex price and the amount of npc killed in highsec and nullsec...


average amount of plex sell orders per day in 2011 - 2250

average amount of plex sell orders per day in 2012 - 2700

average amount of plex sell orders per day in 2013 - 2900

average amount of plex sell orders per day in 2014 - 2000

average amount of plex sell orders per day in 2015 until now - 1700


following gevlon goblins post here ..
http://greedygoblin.blogspot.hu/2015/08/sic-transit-gloria-legion-july-ratting.html

who refers to
http://twostep4csm.blogspot.hu/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html
and where it gets the rats killed from evemap , f.e.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2013-02

average 2010 factionkills highsec 1,982,796,900 lowsec 74,948,321 . summed up. around 2.05 billion faction kills times 38k per npc kill = 72 Trillion gained in highsec+lowsec
factionkills nullsec 762,929,599 . 763 million times * 367k per npc kill = 280 Trillion gained in nullsec

total = 352 Trillion

average 2011 highsec+lowsec = 85T
nullsec = 370 T

total = 455 Trillion

average 2012 highsec+lowsec = 89T
nullsec = 418 T

total = 507 T

average 2013 highsec+ lowsec = 81 T
nullsec = 391 T

total = 472 T

average 2014 highsec+lowsec = 67 T (1.6B highsec npc kills 100million lowsec npc kills )
nullsec = 440T (1,115,916,206 )

total = 507 T

average over 2014 per month 507 T / 12 months = 42T per month

average 2015 until now per month of the total = 44T, so estimating that 2015 will have a total of 528T .



the result ..

plex price in the middle of year in 2010 = 310m

plex price in the middle of year in 2011 = 398m

plex price in the middle of year in 2012 = 492m

plex price in the middle of year in 2013 = 558m

plex price in the middle of year in 2014 = 753m

plex price in the middle of year in 2015 = 944m


As long as subscriptions numbers were going higher, and as a deverative the number of plexes bought for $ increased, and as the total isk income of ratting increased, the plex price didnt go much higher per year then 100 million. 2012 was however the turning year. From 2011 to 2012 the number of npc kills in highsec stil went up, but it would be the last year. Somewhere in 2013 the decreasing in subscription numbers must have started and while the amount of plexes with dollars bought still slightly increased in 2013, the declining total isk income from ratting caused the smallest increase in plex price in years i.e. only a 50m increase. And while subscriptions kept decreasing in 2014 , now also the amount of plexes began decreasing , and while highsec+lowsec ratting further decreased, you would think that the total income from ratting would further decrease; this was without nullsec ratting counted, who on there own caused the isk of total ratting to increase and which as as a result , instead of decelerating the increase of plex price , accelerated the increase of the plex price by 200 million a year.

If ccp wants to reverse the decreasing subscription trend, better pray that players are coming back to highsec, because thats were their bottomline is...

Not in nullsec, not in lowsec, (but the casual, spending dollars for the game) highsec (player)...

Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#2412 - 2015-10-26 18:03:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Xelitras
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
From Eve Vegas Economic presentation:

Quote:
>Of everyone who logged in,
83.5 Warp
80.4% dock
72.9% use market
40.7% join fleets
29.5% warp (null)
25.9% use accel gates
24.8% warp (lowsec)
22.4% mine
19.2% run missions
14.9% do industry
13.1% warp (w-space)
13.8% do PVP
8.5% Hack
1.5% run incursions
1.1% courier contracts


Eve is clearly NOT a pvp game. Don't care how you slice it.

(snip)

So 13.8% of players or 13.8% of characters doesn't matter because it is compared to the same metric.

So all you are saying is most PVP players utilize most of their accounts and characters for something other than PVP... which kind of proves my point.


Did you know that soldiers don't spend most of their time fighting ? They spend more time on patroling, guarding, maintaining equipment, waiting and physical training.

Furthermore an army is not only composed of combatants. There is a lot of logistics behind an army to feed and cloth soldiers, transport personel and equipment, store and maintain weapons ...
There is medical staff, there are mechanics and engineers, there are secretaries and accountants ...

You get the picture: little time is spent with actual fighting, even when your life is at risk 24H/day if you happen to be in a conflict zone.

Of course EvE is different, it's a game after all, but it is not that much dissimilar.

It's sad that I have to remind you that:
- it takes more time on average to build ships than it takes to destroy them (global factor, affecting all players)
- it takes more time to earn the ISK you need to buy a ship, than it takes to destroy that ship
- an average PvP fleet spends more time to find targets, than it takes them to win / lose a battle
- when a ship gets blown up it isn't replaced (clarification: completely !) neither physical nor in value to the pilot who lost it.
- the pilot who lost his ship is most likely out of combat for some time before he can reship

Let's consider how CCP got their numbers. It is very likely that they took several snapshots of the current activities of all logged characters during a day. Let's further assume I'm in a PvP fleet that just formed and is about to head out. Does CCP know I'm in a PvP fleet ? No they don't. They see me as docked and in fleet.

Five minutes later I'm warping and in fleet, no kill yet.

Another five minutes later the snapshot happens while I'm using a stargate while being in a fleet, still no kill.

Yet another five minutes later I have a combat timer (first kill) while warping while in fleet.

So that's one reason why warping leads the list of activities and combat falls behind. Simply because the first happens more frequently and regularly than the second. It's not by intend or popularity that actual combat is happening less frequently, it's physically impossible to get more combat time per hour.

Compare a PvP fleet to a mining op. I'm pretty sure that a miner can get almost an hour of actual mining out of an hour long mining op. I'm also pretty sure that a PvP fleet will get much less time in actual combat for an hour long fleet op.

So I'm not sure what you want to argue about with your numbers ?

Are you trying to say that warping is the most popular activity compared to using stargates, and nobody likes courier contracts ?

or

Are you trying to say that ships blow up too quickly and that it should take more time to get a ship from 100% HP to 0% HP, so that PvP'ers get more time in actual combat ? Because it is unfair that miners and mission runners get more time to do what they intended to do instead of warping around and using stargates.

or

Are you arguing for faster "respawn" times for PvP activities ? Because
1) clearly PvP players have to spend too much time in non-pvp activities to afford and refit new ships and get them to their base of operation.
2) dying in a fight usually means that you won't have another go at the fight until you either got your pod to home-base or market-hub or when you got podded you still have to get warp back to where the fight happens.

So Market, tell me which of the above do you really think that the 13,8% PvP activity number means ?

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#2413 - 2015-10-26 18:24:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaju Enki
The only non-PvP activity in EvE Online is the login screen phase, and even then it can be PvP if you have a keylogger infecting your computer.

The Tears Must Flow

Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#2414 - 2015-10-26 18:31:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Xelitras
Jill Xelitras wrote:

Let's consider how CCP got their numbers. It is very likely that they took several snapshots of the current activities of all logged characters during a day. Let's further assume I'm in a PvP fleet that just formed and is about to head out. Does CCP know I'm in a PvP fleet ? No they don't. They see me as docked and in fleet.

Five minutes later I'm warping and in fleet, no kill yet.

Another five minutes later the snapshot happens while I'm using a stargate while being in a fleet, still no kill.

Yet another five minutes later I have a combat timer (first kill) while warping while in fleet.

So that's one reason why warping leads the list of activities and combat falls behind. Simply because the first happens more frequently and regularly than the second. It's not by intend or popularity that actual combat is happening less frequently, it's physically impossible to get more combat time per hour.


Correction here:

If CCP considered only unique logins and offensive module activated on another player, then my post is wrong from the quoted section on.

Black Pedro has it right then, similar to what the first part of my post says: there is a certain amount of time even a PvP player has to spend on procuring a ship to do PvP in, even if he does it on a second character / account.

(sorry for ninja-edits)

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Black Pedro
Mine.
#2415 - 2015-10-26 18:41:29 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:


PvE has no continuing cost (aside from ammo). Mining never had any real NPC risk, and missions and incursions have been completely min/maxed for years that ship loss is rare for anyone but the newest of players who fly cheap ships anyway. Perhaps the Drifters will change things when they reappear, but right now only PvP losses are keeping the economy moving and have been for most of Eve's history.


Interesting... and how very very wrong.

The largest isk sinks in the game are from Missions and skillbooks. Skillbooks are shared between pvp and pve, and are not mutually exclusive. But Missions sink as much isk as they generate in rewards and bonuses.

Also, given that production and destruction were about equal last year, but zKillboard doesn't show enough destruction to cover, one has to assume the rest of the destruction was from NPCs and not appearing on killboards.

So PVE generates a ton of asset destruction, and you are wrong.

What? Gevlon's 2013 killboard analysis which can be directly compared to CCPs destruction numbers shows 73% of the losses that year were in PvP encounters captured by the public kill boards. That leaves 27% of the destruction for PvE losses, PvP killmails zKillboard missed and other off-the-grid explosions.

When more than 75% of the losses are caused by other players in the game, it is safe to say that PvP is the primary driver of consumption in the game economy,

Why are you arguing such a self-evident point? It clear that PvE must be a net positive activity in terms of wealth generation or practically no one would do it. It's like you have some sort of agenda or something.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2416 - 2015-10-26 18:55:36 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
It's like you have some sort of agenda or something.



Insert Appropriate gif
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#2417 - 2015-10-26 18:59:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
Black Pedro wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:


PvE has no continuing cost (aside from ammo). Mining never had any real NPC risk, and missions and incursions have been completely min/maxed for years that ship loss is rare for anyone but the newest of players who fly cheap ships anyway. Perhaps the Drifters will change things when they reappear, but right now only PvP losses are keeping the economy moving and have been for most of Eve's history.


Interesting... and how very very wrong.

The largest isk sinks in the game are from Missions and skillbooks. Skillbooks are shared between pvp and pve, and are not mutually exclusive. But Missions sink as much isk as they generate in rewards and bonuses.

Also, given that production and destruction were about equal last year, but zKillboard doesn't show enough destruction to cover, one has to assume the rest of the destruction was from NPCs and not appearing on killboards.

So PVE generates a ton of asset destruction, and you are wrong.

What? Gevlon's 2013 killboard analysis which can be directly compared to CCPs destruction numbers shows 73% of the losses that year were in PvP encounters captured by the public kill boards. That leaves 27% of the destruction for PvE losses, PvP killmails zKillboard missed and other off-the-grid explosions.

When more than 75% of the losses are caused by other players in the game, it is safe to say that PvP is the primary driver of consumption in the game economy,

Why are you arguing such a self-evident point? It clear that PvE must be a net positive activity in terms of wealth generation or practically no one would do it. It's like you have some sort of agenda or something.


Except we arent talking about 2013 numbers. For all I know 2013 there was 90% pvp logon participation.

We are talking about now, this year. And what we do have is Gevs new numbers, put out the same day as CCPs. Guess what, he is missing far more than 24%.

Also 24% of ships killed from non-player events such as Missions or belt rats alone... thats not a drop in the bucket my friend. That is a good amount. Hardly enough to call PVE risk free on its own.

I have an agenda, absolutely. I want this game to stop being taken over and all design changes made to cater to the Null Sec PVP elite who think the destruction of everything outside of Nullsec pvp and nullsec pve is the answer.

CCP has been listening to them too long, and the result is what we have today.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#2418 - 2015-10-26 19:09:40 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
It's like you have some sort of agenda or something.



Insert Appropriate gif



You are an author?

Oh, and nice non-substance attack when you have absolutely no legs to stand on against hard numbers and facts. Roll

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2419 - 2015-10-26 19:19:03 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
It's like you have some sort of agenda or something.



Insert Appropriate gif



You are an author?

Oh, and nice non-substance attack when you have absolutely no legs to stand on against hard numbers and facts. Roll



I don't need legs to stand on when everyone knows what you are about lol. I once told Dinsdale how I lved it when he posted, because every time he posted he turned people off, and thus away from his agenda. You do the same.

Which is , of course, all moot, seeing as you are just waiting for your account to expire so you can be done with EVE and go play Elite which is an actual good game...

..Or was that another lie?
Black Pedro
Mine.
#2420 - 2015-10-26 19:25:44 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:


PvE has no continuing cost (aside from ammo). Mining never had any real NPC risk, and missions and incursions have been completely min/maxed for years that ship loss is rare for anyone but the newest of players who fly cheap ships anyway. Perhaps the Drifters will change things when they reappear, but right now only PvP losses are keeping the economy moving and have been for most of Eve's history.


Interesting... and how very very wrong.

The largest isk sinks in the game are from Missions and skillbooks. Skillbooks are shared between pvp and pve, and are not mutually exclusive. But Missions sink as much isk as they generate in rewards and bonuses.

Also, given that production and destruction were about equal last year, but zKillboard doesn't show enough destruction to cover, one has to assume the rest of the destruction was from NPCs and not appearing on killboards.

So PVE generates a ton of asset destruction, and you are wrong.

What? Gevlon's 2013 killboard analysis which can be directly compared to CCPs destruction numbers shows 73% of the losses that year were in PvP encounters captured by the public kill boards. That leaves 27% of the destruction for PvE losses, PvP killmails zKillboard missed and other off-the-grid explosions.

When more than 75% of the losses are caused by other players in the game, it is safe to say that PvP is the primary driver of consumption in the game economy,

Why are you arguing such a self-evident point? It clear that PvE must be a net positive activity in terms of wealth generation or practically no one would do it. It's like you have some sort of agenda or something.


Except we arent talking about 2013 numbers. For all I know 2013 there was 90% pvp logon participation.

We are talking about now, this year. And what we do have is Gevs new numbers, put out the same day as CCPs. Guess what, he is missing far more than 24%.

Also 24% of ships killed from non-player events such as Missions or belt rats alone... thats not a drop in the bucket my friend. That is a good amount. Hardly enough to call PVE risk free on its own.

I have an agenda, absolutely. I want this game to stop being taken over and all design changes made to cater to the Null Sec PVP elite who think the destruction of everything outside of Nullsec pvp and nullsec pve is the answer.

CCP has been listening to them too long, and the result is what we have today.

Well CCP Quant promised us some new and monthly reports, which will include production and destruction, so we will get the current numbers presently.

The point stands about wealth generation though. Even if a small fraction of the total consumption is caused by PvE losses, the net earnings from those activities more than make up for it, so much in fact that it has to cover the other 75% of the PvP losses which generate zero wealth. No matter how you look at it, that is a massive net positive value proposition with no risk of you not coming out ahead in wealth over the medium term.

Again, that is self-evident from the design of the game. PvE is just there to serve as a backdrop for the real game of Eve which is between the players. It is a carrot to get you to offer yourself up as content. Whether you play the game to gather resources while dodging the predators, or as one of those predators, or both as most players do, the PvE resources are there primarily to generate conflict between the players and serve as resources to fight over.