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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2201 - 2015-09-25 03:59:11 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:



It is what they did to anger the player base. Dumbed down the game. I am saying make mechanics that are solid. Eve vs Galaxies... they are reverse roles right now. Eve is simplistic and am saying make it complex even if those that want to be trolls get mad. Galaxies was we have a veteran player base and dumb it down to try and get newbs to endgame from the start.


It is also what Wizards/Hasbro did with 4th Edition D&D and dropped teh ball completely.

The problem with spoonfeeding and dumbng down is the new players it attracts are just looking for something new and shiney and disappear again as fast as they turn up.

If a game is relying on churning through new players (WoW does to some extent, so do FtP but PtW games) the turnover needs to be huge.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2202 - 2015-09-25 04:18:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:



It is what they did to anger the player base. Dumbed down the game. I am saying make mechanics that are solid. Eve vs Galaxies... they are reverse roles right now. Eve is simplistic and am saying make it complex even if those that want to be trolls get mad. Galaxies was we have a veteran player base and dumb it down to try and get newbs to endgame from the start.


It is also what Wizards/Hasbro did with 4th Edition D&D and dropped teh ball completely.

The problem with spoonfeeding and dumbng down is the new players it attracts are just looking for something new and shiney and disappear again as fast as they turn up.

If a game is relying on churning through new players (WoW does to some extent, so do FtP but PtW games) the turnover needs to be huge.


Said it on last page but in case missed:

I am saying go the exact opposite route. Right now we are spoon feeding the "Pirate" aspect of eve. If I was to pick one, and only one thing in eve, it would be damage application. Eve combat is so simplistic and meta, everything is a huge spoonfeed. I am saying bring complexity, interconnectivity and depth to everything. I am saying that if people want to gank and pirate, introduce mechanics to make it so you can do more of it in highsec, but it is an investment of time to get that far.

Carebears and such? Well their end is just the same. Make it so that the things that do earn isk require player time investment, not afk and watch youtube. Random AI, fleet requiring pve, non static mission running that then lead into ones specialized for operating in low and null. Let them adjust while at the same time gaining that eve mentality.

Wardecs? Well if you want to trolldec a corp, pic a region to drive em out. If they are unawares, they roll right into you, but what point is a wardec globally? People who don't know how to or don't want to fight wont. They will disband corp or just not log in. So now what has that done for eve? Well it drove off some newbs who might have become future pirates, or cost CCP a few months of subs from players who probably would have left anyways, but still cost the game for absolutely no gain.

I would absolutely love to be a full on piracy style player in eve. If the mechanics were such that if you were in piracy, you were full on piracy, I would join in an instant. But for now, there is nothing, no point. It is just a Moba that has hours or days between matches and after every fight lost, need to farm.

People could still play casual, but much like all other things in eve, you cannot casually sov, or run a pos, etc and expect to maintain it. For full on hardcore, eve should need some investment, but the rewards of play would just blow the rest out of the water.

Sandbox and content do not have to be inversely proportional. Bait the hook. All things have a large new player turnover, but a 10% retention is better than 2%, even if it costs us 3% of the current players.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2203 - 2015-09-25 04:24:02 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:


Said it on last page but in case missed:

I am saying go the exact opposite route. .


The end result is the same.

The moment you abandon the vets your game dies. The players who play for 3-6 months and then move on will continue to play for 3-6 months then move on to whatever the new thing is.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#2204 - 2015-09-25 04:33:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Markus Reese wrote:
It is what they did to anger the player base. Dumbed down the game.
No, they changed the core game into some other game, a different game, in a complete and utter surprise to the existing players, no heads up what so ever, no discussion at all.

During the riots, one that over shadow the jita riots by a long shot, in forums they said it was to get new players. Complete disregard for the existing playerbase, for some other players they wanted to get (many claimed console players as it turned into twitch based button mashing). The way I could best compare it directly to EVE, think as if all of the sudden a patch was published, and lowsec and Null was ripped from the game leaving only highsec. All POS deleted, no pvp allowed period, and every time you shot your guns you had to keep tapping keys for them to keep firing as well as point your ship at the target. As well, skills here are removed, and replaced with a pre defined class like in WoW.

That was a sudden change. I've seen others like SWG change to that over time, same results, it is only the death of the game.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#2205 - 2015-09-25 06:35:47 UTC
Webvan wrote:
posting on page 110. PCU still holding thru summer season, and still no signs of "starting to turn into RAPID". cluck cluck begok this thread deserves an axe.
lol? Stop looking at serenity figures.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Boom Laison
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2206 - 2015-09-25 07:40:00 UTC
According to eve offline graphs game now has same amount of active players as in year 2007 - 2008.
Xaros IX
Doomheim
#2207 - 2015-09-25 08:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Xaros IX
Well eve has become another routine. Nothing to explore anymore. SoV is consolidated 100% and no1 invades other regions. Even if that happens today, usually is a staged event from leadership (nothing wrong with that, just the way it is).

Lowsec is consolidated too. Big pirate allies grab lvl5 hubs and use it as sov. Try to move in a lvl5 system and see what i mean. And they got serious firepwer, dozens of titans and supers.(nothing wrong with that either).

Expanding the map through "wh like" mechanics would help. Also large portion of the game is isk grinding, which is boring. Not all players can afford multiple accounts.

Then you got plex prices. From 300mil to 1.3bil? Unless ccp provides an incentive for ppl to get plex's, ppl will terminate accounts. Or make plex the only commodity ccp will be in control of. 12mil lps use to get you 10bil isk, now it 5-6bil at best. This inflation on isk is tiresome.

Eve economy is too liberal - monetaristic. A health dose of Keynesian economics wouldnt hurt. Private decisions to fix prices, like PLEX will lead to bad macroeconomic outcomes ( or better macro-population outcomes). All other commodities (like POS-they used to be seeded on the market for a fixed price) have found their balance because they are subject to productivity, cost and abundance. Plex is not directrly related to the game, you use foreign currency, foreign to the game, and convert it to isk. Im sure ccp could fix prices on that. Plus that would eliminate RMT :)

My 2 cents
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#2208 - 2015-09-25 08:36:27 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Webvan wrote:
posting on page 110. PCU still holding thru summer season, and still no signs of "starting to turn into RAPID". cluck cluck begok this thread deserves an axe.
lol? Stop looking at serenity figures.

Don't understand the word 'beginning' and 'RAPID'? It didn't happen, was just more shiptosting. Worthless thread. Beginning - RAPID, gallons of kool-aid drank.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Avvy
Doomheim
#2209 - 2015-09-25 09:29:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:


Said it on last page but in case missed:

I am saying go the exact opposite route. .


The end result is the same.

The moment you abandon the vets your game dies. The players who play for 3-6 months and then move on will continue to play for 3-6 months then move on to whatever the new thing is.



All well and good, but there's a reason those players move on and don't become veterans.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#2210 - 2015-09-25 09:37:28 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Webvan wrote:
posting on page 110. PCU still holding thru summer season, and still no signs of "starting to turn into RAPID". cluck cluck begok this thread deserves an axe.
lol? Stop looking at serenity figures.

Don't understand the word 'beginning' and 'RAPID'? It didn't happen, was just more shiptosting. Worthless thread. Beginning - RAPID, gallons of kool-aid drank.
Actually it was "starting" as your quote shows.

But while the phrasing of the OP is less than perfect, the point is sound. The stats clearly show that there's been a ridiculously big drop in players recently, and CCPs dev blog begging people to play shows CCP know this too. Suggesting "summer season" is the reason for the PCU practically halving is wishful thinking at best.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#2211 - 2015-09-25 09:59:16 UTC
EvE is a very slow game.

Everything about society is going faster.

While I like this game because of it's slow pace, others dislike it for that very reason.

EvE seems to be more of a social experience with a game attached to it than a game first.

You log into eve, remain docked, be on voice comms, and you alt tab and play league of legends or watch Netflix until "something" happens.

Sadly, most people no longer have the patience to sit around and wait, which seems to be largely what EvE is. 99% waiting for that really amazing 1%.
Avvy
Doomheim
#2212 - 2015-09-25 10:07:19 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
EvE is a very slow game.

Everything about society is going faster.

While I like this game because of it's slow pace, others dislike it for that very reason.

EvE seems to be more of a social experience with a game attached to it than a game first.

You log into eve, remain docked, be on voice comms, and you alt tab and play league of legends or watch Netflix until "something" happens.

Sadly, most people no longer have the patience to sit around and wait, which seems to be largely what EvE is. 99% waiting for that really amazing 1%.



99% wasting time, just on the hope that you will get 1% that is really amazing, doesn't seem like a really good game design to me.

Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2213 - 2015-09-25 10:45:35 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
EvE is a very slow game.

Everything about society is going faster.

While I like this game because of it's slow pace, others dislike it for that very reason.

EvE seems to be more of a social experience with a game attached to it than a game first.

You log into eve, remain docked, be on voice comms, and you alt tab and play league of legends or watch Netflix until "something" happens.

Sadly, most people no longer have the patience to sit around and wait, which seems to be largely what EvE is. 99% waiting for that really amazing 1%.



99% wasting time, just on the hope that you will get 1% that is really amazing, doesn't seem like a really good game design to me.



Seems like life to me. Of course what you call wasting time I call preparation.
Avvy
Doomheim
#2214 - 2015-09-25 10:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
EvE is a very slow game.

Everything about society is going faster.

While I like this game because of it's slow pace, others dislike it for that very reason.

EvE seems to be more of a social experience with a game attached to it than a game first.

You log into eve, remain docked, be on voice comms, and you alt tab and play league of legends or watch Netflix until "something" happens.

Sadly, most people no longer have the patience to sit around and wait, which seems to be largely what EvE is. 99% waiting for that really amazing 1%.



99% wasting time, just on the hope that you will get 1% that is really amazing, doesn't seem like a really good game design to me.



Seems like life to me. Of course what you call wasting time I call preparation.



Except it's not real life.

Preparation, this must be one of the few games that people do other activities, like watching Netflix or read a book whilst playing (logged on).
Salvos Rhoska
#2215 - 2015-09-25 10:55:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
I think its fairly clear to everyone that there has been a significant shift in videogame demographics and preferences in the last 5 years or so (also from 10 years ago).

EVE should focus on the strengths of its niche.

Even though it cant compete for mass popular interest, it can still shave off its own share, as essentially the only game of its kind that does what this game does.

EVE is so niche, that it doesnt even have any competition in its class.
EVE is utterly uncontested, for what it is.
Not even SC/Elite are actually competition in this regard, though players do drain off to those due to similar themes.
This is a huge asset that many developers/marketers would dream of.
That you have a product that does things nobody elses product does.

I think the demographic/preference that this game would appeal to still exists, and probably has even grown abit, even though the overwhelming majority of potential customers with other demographics/preferences has grown explosively.

The kind of player who would enjoy EVE, remains somewhat of a constant, in proportion, I think.
No matter how many millions/billions play videogames, the kind of players who would enjoy this game remains at around the same percentual proportion, at perhaps something like 5% of the total market.

Advertising/marketing would help.

These guys/gals are out there, they just dont yet know that EVE exists, and is actually the "different" kind of game they didnt even know they were looking for.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#2216 - 2015-09-25 11:04:19 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
EvE is a very slow game.

Everything about society is going faster.

While I like this game because of it's slow pace, others dislike it for that very reason.

EvE seems to be more of a social experience with a game attached to it than a game first.

You log into eve, remain docked, be on voice comms, and you alt tab and play league of legends or watch Netflix until "something" happens.

Sadly, most people no longer have the patience to sit around and wait, which seems to be largely what EvE is. 99% waiting for that really amazing 1%.



99% wasting time, just on the hope that you will get 1% that is really amazing, doesn't seem like a really good game design to me.



Seems like life to me. Of course what you call wasting time I call preparation.


Yeah League of Legends is a great way to prepare... No game should consist of 99% waiting and EvEs playerbase size shows how unpopular this style is. Be honest, how many of the "vets" are still logging in every day purely to talk to friends and because they already have so much time invested?

The solution to this is to create more (fun) PvE content to eliminate some of that down-time. Even better would be to make this pve content doable in PvP fit ships; as the current method means that if you are doing some pve content you will know you can't beat a pvp fit ship leaving your only sensible option being to bail.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Salvos Rhoska
#2217 - 2015-09-25 11:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Mr Mieyli wrote:


Yeah League of Legends is a great way to prepare... No game should consist of 99% waiting and EvEs playerbase size shows how unpopular this style is. Be honest, how many of the "vets" are still logging in every day purely to talk to friends and because they already have so much time invested?

The solution to this is to create more (fun) PvE content to eliminate some of that down-time. Even better would be to make this pve content doable in PvP fit ships; as the current method means that if you are doing some pve content you will know you can't beat a pvp fit ship leaving your only sensible option being to bail.


I disagree extremely strongly with everything in this (except perhaps logging in for social activity, which really isnt an argument against EVE as you falsely present it, but rather, again, a strength of EVE, that vets actually do that. If you can get people to want to log in just so they can chat with each other, that is a huge achievement for a game.).

The kind of player who would enjoy EVE, has never been a populous or substantial % of the gaming market.
Not before, not now, not in any predictable future. That proportion of the growing market remains, to my mind, relatively the same.
It doesnt matter that tens of millions of brats enjoy LoL. That has absolutely nothing to do with EVE.

Furthermore, EVE does not consist of waiting (except perhaps from the perspective of SP to accumalate). Everything else, including that, is as the other poster stated, preparation and due process to create content for yourself.

I understand this is a alien and strange why to frame it, but it is nonethelss the correct frame of reference for a sandbox game such as this is.

More "fun" PvE is not a solution. The amount of missions available, for example, is completely arbitrary. You only read the mission text once, and sooner or later, after you grinded those additional missions 10-20s over, its the same boring **** as ever before.

What you and some other posters seem incapable of understanding, is that what would make PvE "fun", as it exists now and in future content, is PLAYER COMPETITION AND CONFLICT (ie: PvP).
Not only does that represent and fulfill the essential player conflict/competition nature of what EVE is, it is exactly that which makes even PvE activities exciting, dynamic and engaging.

Take for example exploring in null/WH with a dedicated data/relic hull. You have no weapons. You will not be able to kill anyone. But, what makes your exploration exciting, is that OTHERS will try to kill you.

Do you see?
You are engaged in the PvE activity of hacking cans. It has its own minigame, which frankly is quite tedious. Would you play the same minigame for "fun" if it was simply a Facebook game on its own? Hell no.

What makes it fun and exciting is PLAYER COMPETITION/CONFLICT.

D0O YOU SEEEEH!
*Flexes dragon tattoo on my back, for you to seeeeeh*
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#2218 - 2015-09-25 11:11:29 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Webvan wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Webvan wrote:
posting on page 110. PCU still holding thru summer season, and still no signs of "starting to turn into RAPID". cluck cluck begok this thread deserves an axe.
lol? Stop looking at serenity figures.

Don't understand the word 'beginning' and 'RAPID'? It didn't happen, was just more shiptosting. Worthless thread. Beginning - RAPID, gallons of kool-aid drank.
Actually it was "starting" as your quote shows.

But while the phrasing of the OP is less than perfect, the point is sound. The stats clearly show that there's been a ridiculously big drop in players recently, and CCPs dev blog begging people to play shows CCP know this too. Suggesting "summer season" is the reason for the PCU practically halving is wishful thinking at best.

Neh I was more talking about PCU holding steady during this summer season, which means it didn't start to turn into RAPID. This thread is an alarm of things to come, which didn't happen, as there was no turning into RAPID!

How about: after the summer season (which summer always slows down) and CCP fixes the issue with sov, PCU will start to increase RAPID!!

OP had it wrong, thread is a fraud.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#2219 - 2015-09-25 11:20:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:


Yeah League of Legends is a great way to prepare... No game should consist of 99% waiting and EvEs playerbase size shows how unpopular this style is. Be honest, how many of the "vets" are still logging in every day purely to talk to friends and because they already have so much time invested?

The solution to this is to create more (fun) PvE content to eliminate some of that down-time. Even better would be to make this pve content doable in PvP fit ships; as the current method means that if you are doing some pve content you will know you can't beat a pvp fit ship leaving your only sensible option being to bail.


I disagree extremely strongly with everything in this (except perhaps logging in for social activity, which really isnt an argument against EVE as you falsely present it, but rather, again, a strength of EVE, that vets actually do that. If you can get people to want to log in just so they can chat with each other, that is a huge achievement for a game.).


I didn't see any arguments against EvE in my post, I love the game and want it to still be here 10 years from now. The social factor is a strength of the EvE community, not the game itself. In a roundabout way yes EvE attracted those people in the first place but if all they do now is talk then they aren't really playing the game anymore are they?

Could you perhaps say why my suggestion for improved PvE is so disagreeable? I certainly do not mean improved as in better ISK-generation.

Edit: I'll respond to your edit here in an edit of my own.

I understand that EvE is a niche game that doesn't appeal to everyone, it is difficult for new players to get into simply with the amount to learn; and I don't mean SP, I mean player-knowledge. I don't expect EvE to have the same popularity as instant-gratification games like LoL and others but there comes a point where not enough players are logging in and an MMO dies, and you can see this looking at other MMOs. I would hate for EvE to pass this point and go the same way although I am unsure if that would ever happen, I believe EvE's playerbase is unique in that they will stick out the toughest of times.

Fun PvE will be difficult to create and it can't simply be "add more missions" as, like you say, people will run them and have them figured out within a week and then we're right back to where we started. I disagree though that the only way to make PvE fun is to add PvP; PvP is already everywhere in EvE and has every right to stay there but that alone won't make PvE fun. Your example of exploration is sort of a special-case; yes the fact that someone might find and attempt to kill you adds some excitement, however if you're flying a ratting carrier the added possibility of PvP doesn't make more fun for you. What I'm saying is that if a loss is a small enough fraction of your wealth then sure, it adds fun; but in more expensive ships (which most high-end pve requires) it makes you less likely to undock.

I do firmly believe that PvE needs to change and that doing so would bring in more new players than a reworked NPE or extra starting skills.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2220 - 2015-09-25 11:21:37 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
EvE is a very slow game.

Everything about society is going faster.

While I like this game because of it's slow pace, others dislike it for that very reason.

EvE seems to be more of a social experience with a game attached to it than a game first.

You log into eve, remain docked, be on voice comms, and you alt tab and play league of legends or watch Netflix until "something" happens.

Sadly, most people no longer have the patience to sit around and wait, which seems to be largely what EvE is. 99% waiting for that really amazing 1%.



99% wasting time, just on the hope that you will get 1% that is really amazing, doesn't seem like a really good game design to me.



Seems like life to me. Of course what you call wasting time I call preparation.



Except it's not real life.

Preparation, this must be one of the few games that people do other activities, like watching Netflix or read a book whilst playing (logged on).


Eve is Real.