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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#2181 - 2015-09-24 19:15:48 UTC
Mir Jana wrote:
I was wondering about something...

January 2014 - average was 41k online
June 2014 - average was 32k online
December 2014 - average was 27k online
May 2015 - average was 21k online
August 2015 - average is 16k online

today I logged in at 14793 online.....

What can CCP do to re-build its populace cause obviously something is rotten in the state of Iceland...?
You can have your own opinion. You can't have your own facts. They are stubborn things, no?

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2182 - 2015-09-24 19:54:23 UTC
What can they do? Say F you vets and focus on people who are not playing eve first. The existing player basd will decline no matter how solid it is. MUST get new players in and wanting to stay. As much as many people seem to believe, tears are not a valid currency to pay the bills. It should be just as difficult to be a bully as it is to be a carebear. Everything should require risk and be a struggle to be on top. The bigger the ship, the more special, not standard, it should be in a combat situation.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#2183 - 2015-09-24 20:32:13 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:

I have tried to say this many many times - among my gamer friends, EvE has a nasty reputation of being of the griefers, by the griefers, and for the griefers. I will not argue the validity of this, but do you really think this is a winning community perception as a business model with so many alternatives these days ? Again, if you like this concept, then I hope you enjoy the obviously shrinking population. 'Nuf sed.


EvE was meant to be harsh and brutal.

I guess it's how you market it to your friends. You can either say "Everyone's going to be mean to you", or you can say "If you want to be mean to anyone in-game, nobody will stop you from trying ... because sandbox."

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2184 - 2015-09-24 20:43:55 UTC
The part that gets people, it is the effort to be mean vs the counter and imbalance of repurcussions. In highsec that is what aggrivates most.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Bellatrix Invicta
Doomheim
#2185 - 2015-09-24 20:45:32 UTC
So leave highsec; it's obviously too dangerous for you.

If you think you've won, think again.

The CODE always wins.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#2186 - 2015-09-24 21:08:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Markus Reese wrote:
....It should be just as difficult to be a bully as it is to be a carebear. Everything should require risk and be a struggle to be on top. ...


Have you actually tried high sec ganking?

If it is easier then we would expect more new players would do high sec ganking and few would do the difficult work of carebearing. Yet there are so few gankers and so many people carebearing.


Markus Reese wrote:
The part that gets people, it is the effort to be mean vs the counter and imbalance of repurcussions. In highsec that is what aggrivates most.


Why fight the game? Just start doing the high sec ganking yourself and teach new players how to do it if it is so much easier. Do what you decide is the best way to accomplish your goals.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2187 - 2015-09-24 22:40:58 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
....It should be just as difficult to be a bully as it is to be a carebear. Everything should require risk and be a struggle to be on top. ...


Have you actually tried high sec ganking?

If it is easier then we would expect more new players would do high sec ganking and few would do the difficult work of carebearing. Yet there are so few gankers and so many people carebearing.


Yes, I was part of a group that got a 43 plex freighter gank. Will find the killmail if I get time.


Quote:
Why fight the game? Just start doing the high sec ganking yourself and teach new players how to do it if it is so much easier. Do what you decide is the best way to accomplish your goals.


Because I do not find that fun, it isn't what I want to do? I am for fun over easy. Is why I dropped being part of the incursion runners. It is why I used to fly command ships on grid. It is why I do not use alts. I am in it for the fun. I have been the villain in many games and if in eve being a villain was an actual play style, myself and good rl friends would easily be a perma pirate corp. But we just found that if offers no substance. it is an incomplete life. Okay guys, we are going to go gank/small gang roam, etc. Now we need to switch to alts to buy stuff or go trade tags or etc.

It isn't exciting. Ganking is a carnival game. Short, fun, but pointless. I like community stuff and building up from nothing, ties and reputation. The ability to be a hardcore pirate should be earned and built and if you are notorious, that is what you are stuck at. Buying tags off market and giving em to somebody shouldn't fix that. Rat for many months to fix that sec standing. If eve supported that style of gameplay, you bet I would gank every day.

I would love to live full time in lowsec via pirate hubs, in sub bs hulls and small fleets raiding to make isk and get items without ever needing to interact highsec again. I got the SP, and the skills, and the drive. That is why I post in these forums. Eve has the best framework for building a massively deep gameplay experience that I find is underutilized.

We are at some resort beach sandbox where the fights are inflatable sumo suits.

Should eve not be the Beaches of Normandy? People fighting for cause and not a plastic trophy?

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2188 - 2015-09-24 23:00:44 UTC

Quote:
Why fight the game? Just start doing the high sec ganking yourself and teach new players how to do it if it is so much easier. Do what you decide is the best way to accomplish your goals.


The following was originally an edit to my previous post, but such a heartfelt rant, it needed it's own post.

Other game example

This still rates as one of the best pirate style moments of any game I played. Not the most lasting, but best experience.

That good ol game of freelancer. I played on a huge server. I got in with a group of honorable pirates. Pay the fee, pass on by. Don't pay, and we kill you. Want in? Fight or go around.

I would be able to take on three-four people who were on par in ship fitment at a time and win that fight while also keeping others from getting by. It was extreme, and it was intense.

So who had the better result of that investment in time. The Four fighting me who lost, or the one me who won? Which probably was more work?

that is eve. Here, if you are one on four, it is difficult to win, instead, I find more excitement in evading it. So go ahead, go for the easy thing. Show newbs ganking.

After a month, they are bored and they are cowards because they never got to learning skilled combat. They end up like certain big alliances which lose even when they have numbers because people lack the skill and mental fortitude to risk it in a fight. That mentality has spread throughout eve coupled by blob fighting rock paper scissors meta game that really renders skill useless in any bigger fight.


I am a solo character!
I AM PROUD OF THE FACT I HAVE NO ALTS!

The best times in eve for me were fighting the losing fights.

End of White Noise

Fail of Cascade Imminent

My first pvp ship loss with that awesome tackle griffin that still resonates with me the power that newbs have when along side high SP veterans.

That one time we all jumped in basic fit hurricanes and counter raided a wormhole with a fleet that formed in like two minutes. We collapsed the wormhole behind us going in, tore a top WH corp a new one and got out!

Leading fleets of hundreds of people vs the initial Sansha Incursion live events!!!

Gonna touch on that one for a bit.... We lauded when over an entire game day a few thou people got in a pvp fight. You know what? With Sansha incursions, I got a Maxed fleet in minutes which was a fight to get close to those numbers with a big alliance CTA. We got thousands of people to band together randomly with extremely short warning. Numbers that typically rivaled many of the large alliance fights with all their planning and organization.

What is the point? Eve will NEVER be able to compete with a concept of casual. Even RvB with it's no objective fighting is still not casual. People are part of a group, something big. There is a long term anticipation, like waiting for the next in a series.


You really think that sneaking in and ganking a miner who is listening to some tunes and only half watching a screen can compete to any of those experiences? To this day there is not a single thing that instills the memories and emotions for me and those that were there as those Sansha live events. Deltole VI still gives me shivers as to how much of an experience that was.

The fact that years later, I still encounter people who when new flew in my fleets see and remember me. That says a lot. The fact so many people still remember me and contact me for showing them how to maximize the complexity of this game. To fight for the challenge and how to fight back.

Note, years later....

So people who really hadn't gotten into the game stuck around for years after because they got an experience that other games could not compete with.

So I ask you, what does casual ganking actually bring of value compared to MY EVE?

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2189 - 2015-09-24 23:44:45 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Then, failing that, it's going to be a rough Xmas 2016 at CCP and many will wonder what went wrong and where.


But but ... presents.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2190 - 2015-09-25 00:37:48 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Then, failing that, it's going to be a rough Xmas 2016 at CCP and many will wonder what went wrong and where.


But but ... presents.


No presents this christmas, they did not have the developer time to spend. We just get recycled fireworks...

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2191 - 2015-09-25 00:55:20 UTC
Otso Bakarti wrote:
You can have your own opinion. You can't have your own facts. They are stubborn things, no?

Such a pity their facts are so wrong, with a 21k average being the actual monthly average, hitting 33/34k every weekend.
Obviously this is down from EVE's highest peaks, but then again, so is every single MMO on the market (that hasn't just launched) showing player drops. WOW has dropped to under 50% of their 2010 subscription numbers, while we know EVE's Subscription numbers actually were rising despite concurrent logins dropping slightly. Meaning even if we have shed some subscriptions we have not had a drop anywhere near on the region of WOW, which is considered the Gold standard traditionally, and quite a few other MMO's are entering obvious holding patterns and shrinking servers showing obvious signs of failing player bases also.

But hey, all this was said right back at the start of the thread by people anyway, so anyone still ranting at this point isn't interested in facts.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2192 - 2015-09-25 01:58:49 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:

Should eve not be the Beaches of Normandy? People fighting for cause and not a plastic trophy?


No.

When you start demanding "cause" and "reasons" for PvP to exist, that's just another snide justification to nerf other people's player freedom.

They can do what they want, whether you like it or not. In fact, especially if you don't like it. If you want "beaches of Normandy", go play Wing Commander or X-Wing or some other game that has a story. You can get your "cause" there.

EVE is about player freedom.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#2193 - 2015-09-25 02:25:05 UTC
posting on page 110. PCU still holding thru summer season, and still no signs of "starting to turn into RAPID". cluck cluck begok this thread deserves an axe.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2194 - 2015-09-25 02:31:53 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
What can they do? Say F you vets and focus on people who are not playing eve first. The existing player basd will decline no matter how solid it is. MUST get new players in and wanting to stay. As much as many people seem to believe, tears are not a valid currency to pay the bills. It should be just as difficult to be a bully as it is to be a carebear. Everything should require risk and be a struggle to be on top. The bigger the ship, the more special, not standard, it should be in a combat situation.


******* over vets and going for the mythical new players is what SWG did. The game flat lined in a month and never recovered.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2195 - 2015-09-25 02:43:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
What can they do? Say F you vets and focus on people who are not playing eve first. The existing player basd will decline no matter how solid it is. MUST get new players in and wanting to stay. As much as many people seem to believe, tears are not a valid currency to pay the bills. It should be just as difficult to be a bully as it is to be a carebear. Everything should require risk and be a struggle to be on top. The bigger the ship, the more special, not standard, it should be in a combat situation.


******* over vets and going for the mythical new players is what SWG did. The game flat lined in a month and never recovered.


More specifically, deliberately pissing off your core playerbase in order to chase purely theoretical subscribers is the kind of folly normally only seen in things like New Coke.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#2196 - 2015-09-25 03:16:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
******* over vets and going for the mythical new players is what SWG did. The game flat lined in a month and never recovered.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
More specifically, deliberately pissing off your core playerbase in order to chase purely theoretical subscribers is the kind of folly normally only seen in things like New Coke.

SWG refugee here, totally confirming the above as spot on. SWG, the best example of what not to do to a game nor to your existing vets.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#2197 - 2015-09-25 03:17:14 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
What can they do? Say F you vets and focus on people who are not playing eve first. The existing player basd will decline no matter how solid it is. MUST get new players in and wanting to stay. As much as many people seem to believe, tears are not a valid currency to pay the bills. It should be just as difficult to be a bully as it is to be a carebear. Everything should require risk and be a struggle to be on top. The bigger the ship, the more special, not standard, it should be in a combat situation.


******* over vets and going for the mythical new players is what SWG did. The game flat lined in a month and never recovered.


More specifically, deliberately pissing off your core playerbase in order to chase purely theoretical subscribers is the kind of folly normally only seen in things like New Coke.

Who's mad about the new Coke?
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2198 - 2015-09-25 03:32:53 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:

Yes, I was part of a group that got a 43 plex freighter gank. Will find the killmail if I get time.



Please do. Eve-kill, zkillboard and battleclinic do not seem to show any ganking by you.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#2199 - 2015-09-25 03:34:19 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
What can they do? Say F you vets and focus on people who are not playing eve first. The existing player basd will decline no matter how solid it is. MUST get new players in and wanting to stay. As much as many people seem to believe, tears are not a valid currency to pay the bills. It should be just as difficult to be a bully as it is to be a carebear. Everything should require risk and be a struggle to be on top. The bigger the ship, the more special, not standard, it should be in a combat situation.


******* over vets and going for the mythical new players is what SWG did. The game flat lined in a month and never recovered.


More specifically, deliberately pissing off your core playerbase in order to chase purely theoretical subscribers is the kind of folly normally only seen in things like New Coke.

Who's mad about the new Coke?

Primarily Boba Fett. If John Smedley hadn't spiked Boba's rocket pack with New Coke, he might have never fallen into the Sarlacc pit. Took Boba quite a bit of time and effort to escape from that Sarlacc pit. Thanks Smedley Roll

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2200 - 2015-09-25 03:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
baltec1 wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
What can they do? Say F you vets and focus on people who are not playing eve first. The existing player basd will decline no matter how solid it is. MUST get new players in and wanting to stay. As much as many people seem to believe, tears are not a valid currency to pay the bills. It should be just as difficult to be a bully as it is to be a carebear. Everything should require risk and be a struggle to be on top. The bigger the ship, the more special, not standard, it should be in a combat situation.


******* over vets and going for the mythical new players is what SWG did. The game flat lined in a month and never recovered.


It is what they did to anger the player base. Dumbed down the game. I am saying make mechanics that are solid. Eve vs Galaxies... they are reverse roles right now. Eve is simplistic and am saying make it complex even if those that want to be trolls get mad. Galaxies was we have a veteran player base and dumb it down to try and get newbs to endgame from the start.

It also missed the complete point of that statement. If we could get a chart showing average player age, it should taper down from many new players, say sub 1 year, to a small group of people over 5 years which remains pretty progressive. Somehow I do not see it being that way. I see a tiny spike of the one month, a sudden drop, then just flatline across meaning that the only people who do stay will be those for a long time. There is no moderate gamers. By making vet ships specialized and more role for lower SP, it will increase the up to one year player base.

A good mechanical setup and fleet composition for the game would see high sp veterans in elite ships, more T2 and faction in battle with capital centerpiece. The main bodies of the fleets would be T1 battleships, cruisers and frigates. It would make the veteran role a centerpiece instead of a minimum requirement. People can still push people out, and let the newbs know whose boss, but there still needs to be roles for the new players. As I have said frequently, a proper game mechanic setup would have new players as pawns. Low power, but vitally necessary. That would mean that a highsec needs to be revamped to give them a chance to get their feet wet.

Is interesting, one group likely to drop the game pretty fast from the lets get newb tears victims are probably the higher skilled and risk taking players. People like myself. If I had been ganked/trolled/etc. There would not have been tears. I would have simply decided the mechanics are busted and moved on. Plenty of fun games out there. If those first moments seem broken, they just leave. If it seems a proper challenge or have some intrigue, then they join in.

This is speaking from experience with Eve. I tried it when eve started up. I played a bit, and a simple misunderstanding of the skill system, I left. I had even forgotten I played until years later when a friend sent me an invite and suddenly... "boy, this seems familiar". That is what I was getting at with **** em off. Let those that hurt the bottom line and game's potential leave. Is it not better to get the players in more concerned about fights than killboards? Those more up for a challenge than hotdropping a few barges?

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:

Should eve not be the Beaches of Normandy? People fighting for cause and not a plastic trophy?


No.

When you start demanding "cause" and "reasons" for PvP to exist, that's just another snide justification to nerf other people's player freedom.

They can do what they want, whether you like it or not. In fact, especially if you don't like it. If you want "beaches of Normandy", go play Wing Commander or X-Wing or some other game that has a story. You can get your "cause" there.

EVE is about player freedom.


Not arguing that either, freedom is what I like about the game. But why can we not have freedom with depth of mechanics?

A common statement is that modern gaming people want instant combat and results. Eve does not have that, but the tools we have are that way. Spend a ton of time working towards something, then trying to find reasons to use it for short bursts. Would it not be better if it was protracted? Not as a grind, but as a progression. So a war dec can just be casual, a gank can be casual, but reverse it so those that want a story, depth, or goal more than flying bling bling ship can have that effectively as well.

These recent replies to that post caused an explosion of new posters. Much of this topic and many about it all go on about how eve doesn't have players cause most gamers want instant access and eve is not for them. As soon as is a post about making eve a more paced tactical and complex game, people complain that eve won't be instant access?

This alone proves eve has an identity crisis. We have this widely outspoken panicy group that eve is supposed to be about and reward loyalty and determination, but it also is supposed to be casual, have nothing and instant?

Overall, if Eve is only going to be about casual ganking, and one sided fighting. Then let it die. I find what I do fun, and the community fun. For casual PvP and smacktalk, I will play a much more challenging real PvP combat game, as I am sure many others have done.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.