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Crime & Punishment

 
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My Views On Hisec - CSM Platform

First post
Author
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#101 - 2015-08-26 07:46:55 UTC
I am in a hisec corp, and last time around I voted for Tora because he had some good ideas to change things up (while still not nerfing anything non-combat related into dust). I even seriously considered Sabriz, because well, I like Sabriz. And because stuff getting blown up is good for businessBlink

I have read all of your posts and ideas. I admire your love of the game and that you want to make things better than they are now. Respect. But you have a long way to convince me to vote for you. If I just had one thing to offer, is that you have to decide if you want to stand by your own designs, or actually want to win a seat.

Either way, best of luck and keep posting in your threads. Love reading your stuff!
Tora Bushido
The Marmite Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#102 - 2015-08-26 08:15:00 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
How do you make your average highsec corp willing to stand and fight against experienced pvp'ers with minimum 30-40M SP in subcaps, a network of anonymous alts for support, who can escalate up to faction BS/T3 + logi fleets if seriously challenged
You hire mercenaries to do the work for you, paid from the easy highsec money you made. Bigger doesnt always mean better. Just look at Jennifer, with a 1 man corp, that really can be very annoying (in a fun way) when we re at war with her.

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2015-08-26 08:45:06 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
How do you make your average highsec corp willing to stand and fight against experienced pvp'ers with minimum 30-40M SP in subcaps, a network of anonymous alts for support, who can escalate up to faction BS/T3 + logi fleets if seriously challenged
You hire mercenaries to do the work for you, paid from the easy highsec money you made. Bigger doesnt always mean better. Just look at Jennifer, with a 1 man corp, that really can be very annoying (in a fun way) when we re at war with her.


Confirming Jennifer is a pain in the backside, albeit a fun pain. Especially when she falls for the ol' 'follow the pod into a trap' trap.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#104 - 2015-08-26 11:48:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
Tora Bushido wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
How do you make your average highsec corp willing to stand and fight against experienced pvp'ers with minimum 30-40M SP in subcaps, a network of anonymous alts for support, who can escalate up to faction BS/T3 + logi fleets if seriously challenged
You hire mercenaries to do the work for you, paid from the easy highsec money you made. Bigger doesnt always mean better. Just look at Jennifer, with a 1 man corp, that really can be very annoying (in a fun way) when we re at war with her.


Yep. Jen enMarland commands my respect as a rival.

That character and the player behind it would be fearsome indeed acting as an ally and leader of a bunch of newbs flying as a coherent and coordinated fleet.


Edit. Or you get sneaky and get a spy into the aggressor corp and use your Intel superiority to lead them into a trap. Or you just swarm them with frigates and lose ten ships and six pods to kill one ship, and still winl the ISK war ten to one.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#105 - 2015-08-26 11:55:50 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

How do you make your average highsec corp willing to stand and fight against experienced pvp'ers


You don't. The "average highsec corp" needs to die in a fire and be replaced with a different concept, a more whollistic view of the game instead of a PvE centric bunch of rabbits.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#106 - 2015-08-26 12:57:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Sabriz, I really like your two most recent posts (on hisec in general and capitals in particular), but am currently time constrained. I'll reply to them after work. Thanks again for contributing, I really appreciate it.

Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
How do you make your average highsec corp willing to stand and fight against experienced pvp'ers with minimum 30-40M SP in subcaps, a network of anonymous alts for support, who can escalate up to faction BS/T3 + logi fleets if seriously challenged. Highsec wars are stupid, one-sided affairs, unless the aggressors choose to make them otherwise.

Not to parrot Kaarous, but you can't. There is a non-trivial subset of hisec dwellers that will never, ever, under any circumstances voluntarily engage in ship-to-ship combat with other players and will actively seek to avoid it. As I've said before, you can't patch human nature, so don't bother try.

What you can do though is make your average hisec corp worth fighting for. If being in a hisec player corp meant something beyond just POSes, hangars, and a cool logo, more players would likely be wiling to at least try to fight. Not all mind you, but more. Also, if defending your corp becomes highly desirable and you are unwilling to fight, this drives up demand for good hisec PvP corps to step in as allies and do the defending for you.

Once you make dropping corp to avoid a wardec less desirable, more people will fight for their corps, even if it means hiring someone else to fight for them. More meaningful fights = more meaningful content, and everyone wins.

I also see this as part of my appeal for the arena beyond C&P. Player corps are boring. Right now they're more a convenience than a real benefit. I want to make them meaningful, not just in the sense of wardecs but for daily life, and I'm sure that this will appeal to a very wide audience. I'm just not sure yet what to change (aside from making NPC corps far less desirable) in order to accomplish that, which is why I'm asking for input.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#107 - 2015-08-26 13:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Tora Bushido wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
How do you make your average highsec corp willing to stand and fight against experienced pvp'ers with minimum 30-40M SP in subcaps, a network of anonymous alts for support, who can escalate up to faction BS/T3 + logi fleets if seriously challenged
You hire mercenaries to do the work for you, paid from the easy highsec money you made. Bigger doesnt always mean better. Just look at Jennifer, with a 1 man corp, that really can be very annoying (in a fun way) when we re at war with her.

Confirming that 1-man corps can be real pains in the arse. I can only aspire to Jennifer's level, but I like to think that I hold my own. Pirate

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Tora Bushido
The Marmite Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#108 - 2015-08-26 14:16:02 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Tora Bushido wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
How do you make your average highsec corp willing to stand and fight against experienced pvp'ers with minimum 30-40M SP in subcaps, a network of anonymous alts for support, who can escalate up to faction BS/T3 + logi fleets if seriously challenged
You hire mercenaries to do the work for you, paid from the easy highsec money you made. Bigger doesnt always mean better. Just look at Jennifer, with a 1 man corp, that really can be very annoying (in a fun way) when we re at war with her.


Yep. Jen enMarland commands my respect as a rival.

That character and the player behind it would be fearsome indeed acting as an ally and leader of a bunch of newbs flying as a coherent and coordinated fleet.


Edit. Or you get sneaky and get a spy into the aggressor corp and use your Intel superiority to lead them into a trap. Or you just swarm them with frigates and lose ten ships and six pods to kill one ship, and still winl the ISK war ten to one.
Or you get spies from Marmite in your new corp, have them support you and lead your fleets for good Eve content..... Arumbaya Arumbaya...

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#109 - 2015-08-26 16:11:15 UTC
Without debating the effectiveness of the CSM in total...

I have always percieved an inbuilt and unjust exclusionary principle with CSM voting when it comes to content-friendly C&P candidates.

In short, there is entrenched and systemic racism against content-creators from many of the carebears and pansies in hisec, who simply will never support a C&P candidate. It is also fair to say that content-creators in hisec represent the minority of population, and the majority of said carebears will always work against such a candidate being elected.

There have been occasional abberations, like FunkyBacon successfully getting elected; but his huge media presence is the exception not the norm as an enabler for election for a C&P type person.

To this end, and for *true* representation of all players on the CSM, CCP must reserve a couple of seats at the CSM table for content-creating C&P members, and appoint them by another means.

tldr;
Bronson is righteous, as is Sabriz, Tora et al -- but the systemic voter racism against C&P candidates in the elections process must be addressed by CCP. Qualified C&P names should go into a hat, and CCP pick two of them from the hat each year and put them on the CSM.

Nullsec is always represented. So too is losec. As is the hisec carebear position. Hisec C&P candidates however get the shaft.

This injustice must be addressed, if only to counter the claim that CCP has set up a system precisely TO dis-enfranchise the C&P position in hisec, and such a position not part of their kindler-gentler narrative for hisec of late.

With the ejection of FunkyBacon from the CSM...this action is needed more than ever to confirm true pursuit of equal representation of *all* players on the CSM each year.

F

Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#110 - 2015-08-26 16:22:28 UTC
Hell, I'd be satisfied with one single CSM having even a clue as to the inside and outs of what we do and why. Funky did, and I was very happy to see him and was happy with the work he did.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#111 - 2015-08-26 16:32:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Alekseyev Karrde arguably should have been a subject matter expert CSM member. His entire CSM candidacy was based on the foreknowledge that changes to wars were imminent and that representation was needed for everything to not be a ****-show. However his stance of "Voice no opinion to CCP about proposed changes, wait for them to implement whatever they want and then see how it is afterwards" resulted in disaster.

It turns our he was actually enormously out of touch and didn't actually care about the war system at all even though that was the only reason he was on the CSM. The only thing he really expressed concern about was the catastrophic cost scaling bug that destroyed the majority of the extant mercenary corps.
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#112 - 2015-08-26 22:46:06 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Tora Bushido wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
How do you make your average highsec corp willing to stand and fight against experienced pvp'ers with minimum 30-40M SP in subcaps, a network of anonymous alts for support, who can escalate up to faction BS/T3 + logi fleets if seriously challenged
You hire mercenaries to do the work for you, paid from the easy highsec money you made. Bigger doesnt always mean better. Just look at Jennifer, with a 1 man corp, that really can be very annoying (in a fun way) when we re at war with her.


Yep. Jen enMarland commands my respect as a rival.

That character and the player behind it would be fearsome indeed acting as an ally and leader of a bunch of newbs flying as a coherent and coordinated fleet.


Edit. Or you get sneaky and get a spy into the aggressor corp and use your Intel superiority to lead them into a trap. Or you just swarm them with frigates and lose ten ships and six pods to kill one ship, and still winl the ISK war ten to one.
Or you get spies from Marmite in your new corp, have them support you and lead your fleets for good Eve content..... Arumbaya Arumbaya...

The risk is they might have too much fun themselves and decide to take another one of their Marmite holidays Blink

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2015-08-27 04:04:41 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
How do you make your average highsec corp willing to stand and fight against experienced pvp'ers with minimum 30-40M SP in subcaps, a network of anonymous alts for support, who can escalate up to faction BS/T3 + logi fleets if seriously challenged
You hire mercenaries to do the work for you, paid from the easy highsec money you made. Bigger doesnt always mean better. Just look at Jennifer, with a 1 man corp, that really can be very annoying (in a fun way) when we re at war with her.



Most highsec wardec magnets are too stupid or too poor to hire mercs, and if they aren't, they will likely end up hiring someone that just sits on hubs all day rather than actually hurting the opppsition.

I admire what JEM does; it's a shame there aren't more people pursuing that play style. A white knight with the SP, experience and alt support to be effective is a rarity.

Much of the problem relates to the fact that many of the people starting corps in highsec have no business doing so. But I don't see any way to change that. I can't think of any mechanical barrier to keep idiots from starting a corp.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#114 - 2015-08-27 05:34:01 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Tora Bushido wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
How do you make your average highsec corp willing to stand and fight against experienced pvp'ers with minimum 30-40M SP in subcaps, a network of anonymous alts for support, who can escalate up to faction BS/T3 + logi fleets if seriously challenged
You hire mercenaries to do the work for you, paid from the easy highsec money you made. Bigger doesnt always mean better. Just look at Jennifer, with a 1 man corp, that really can be very annoying (in a fun way) when we re at war with her.



Most highsec wardec magnets are too stupid or too poor to hire mercs, and if they aren't, they will likely end up hiring someone that just sits on hubs all day rather than actually hurting the opppsition.

I admire what JEM does; it's a shame there aren't more people pursuing that play style. A white knight with the SP, experience and alt support to be effective is a rarity.

Much of the problem relates to the fact that many of the people starting corps in highsec have no business doing so. But I don't see any way to change that. I can't think of any mechanical barrier to keep idiots from starting a corp.



The game doesn't set up many mechanical barriers against solo pilots flying into 10+ player incursion sites either (which, like setting up a corp when you aren't ready for it, is a Bad Idea).

Players do the latter sometimes, lose something, and hopefully learn from the loss. EVE has a fair number of mechanisms to recover from losses - insurance, etc.

I'm definitely in favor of more terrible corps being destroyed than happens now.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#115 - 2015-08-27 12:14:28 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I think that both large merc corps wardeccing anything and everyone AND small corps of dedicated hunters should be a part of the future of highsec. Both the Marmite style of play AND the Cannibal Kane style of play (if people remember him) should be viable, along with things between those extremes.

Also I'd like to see more options to wardec for profit, or to control specific areas of space.

Agreed on all counts. My seeming bias against large corps running blanket wardecs isn't so much that I oppose that style of play, it's more that it seems to have become the norm. I would like to shift the norm more towards the middle of the spectrum while still leaving it possible.

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I feel any overhaul should do the following:

2 - Here I feel the wardec fee should not disappear from the game, but should be held in escrow as a time-limited bounty on the attackers, claimable only be defending parties in the war (that is, the defender entity and allies). If not claimed, it disappears.
I really like this idea in principle, but, as with all bounty systems, I am concerned with potential abuses. If this new wardec bounty system calculates the bounty per kill like the current system does (i.e. no way to scam the system), I would get behind this.

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
3 - The in-client information given to players upon their corp being wardecced is insufficient, cryptic and written in in-game 'role-play' text. It should be clearer so they understand that highsec is not safe during the war (it never is, but it's considerably more dangerous) and direct them to out-of-client information explaining watchlisting, locator agents, combat probing and other tools that their attackers will be using.
As a predatory wardeccer myself, I can attest that new players that are competently led are scary to go up against.
I agree that the available in-game information regarding wardecs should be more clear. The current notifications are useless and as far as I'm aware, there is no NPE category for wardecs. I would support improving the available in-game information and notifications, but I would not support linking directly to out-of-game material. There is plenty on the web on this topic and Google is free to everyone; why should wardecs get a special link to outside material but not, say, missions? We should make the mechanics easier to understand in-game for sure, but I don't think we should spoonfeed players either.

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
5 - The ally system needs work. It's not generating conflict, it's instead seen as a way to get free wars. (If A wardecs B and you want to get a free war against A, you join B as an ally). I don't have the answers here.
I think that an "Ally advert" that works like a corp advert would help here, but you can already largely do that by linking the wardec. Agreed though that this needs to be easier.

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
6 - I'd endorse a unilateral surrender option that sees the defender party pay a surrender payment and (for the remaining duration of the present week of the war) pay a higher tax rate on bounties and (if possible) LP, that goes to the aggressor entity.

In exchange the war would be restricted to only one region of the aggressor's choice until it expired, and if it restarted within 28 days after expiring, it would remain restricted to one region.

This would allow corps that have tried to stand up for themselves some respite at a serious cost, while also allowing permanent strategic wars (e.g. "This icefield belongs to us, if you return we will crush you" or "You are undercutting us on Ishtars, we don't like this so we are cutting off your access to Jita, go sell in Amarr and leave *our* market alone", or "Nice POS location. We're taking it.").
I like these ideas, but I don't necessarily like them together. I would implement the unilateral surrender option as you described and make the terms of unilateral surrender settable upon initiating the wardec; the defenders would then get to see, up front, what the aggressors terms are and they would have the option to pay up front. While this may not drive in-space conflict, it would drive content and make wardeccing purely for profit easier. After accepting such a unilateral surrender, the aggressor could not re-dec the defender for some period of time, but there is still the potential issue of aggressors jumping corp to abuse this against the same defender. This would not replace the existing surrender offer system; defenders would still be able to make offers if the aggressors didn't set up a surrender condition at the start.

I would also allow aggressors to limit a war to certain areas of space for the sake of asserting control over an area, independent of the unilateral surrender option. I would even go down to the constellation level: if you come mine in these belts, we will shoot you. I can see some potential issues from a mechanics abuse standpoint (i.e. what happens when a fight spills out into a non-war system?), and this would have to be accompanied by the overhaul in #3 to make perfectly clear what is going on, but I really like this idea.




For my views on hisec capitals, I have this thread.

Thanks again.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#116 - 2015-08-27 13:38:03 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
After accepting such a unilateral surrender, the aggressor could not re-dec the defender for some period of time, but there is still the potential issue of aggressors jumping corp to abuse this against the same defender.


Which is why corp swapping would be limited. If they were a wardec corp, they'd likely be dropping under a dec and therefore penalized.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#117 - 2015-08-27 14:35:35 UTC
A unilateral surrender conceptually doesn't make sense. The entire point of surrendering is to capitulate to the aggressor in return for an end to violence. If the aggressor can't refuse, or can't determine the terms then it's not really a surrender at all.

What really needs to exist is an actual functional negotiation system where both parties can table offers. For example on declaring war an aggressor should be able to establish an isk amount they will accept a surrender for and set the duration of the mandatory post-war peace period which the defender can accept at any time or make a counter offer to. In an ideal world it should also facilitate the transfer of structure ownership too.

Keeping the war bill in escrow and returning it to the aggressor if the defender disbands or to the defender if the aggressor disbands (this does happen sometimes) would largely end the issue of people disbanding their corps and reforming them to evade wars.

Also you can already request allies. The real issue with the ally system is that it's totally unilateral, the defender can escalate near infinitely for little cost and no mechanical consequence for either the defender or their allies which if you're a carebear sounds awesone, but in reality serves as a massive deterrent to conflict between legitimate rivals. It's my opinion that bringing in an ally should allow the aggressor to bring in one of their own for the same cost. This would make it undesirable to ally into a war you're not committed to just to get a free war and to facilitate super awesome widespread conflict in highsec.

Also anyone who wants continuously increasing costs for protracted wars is dumb. That would serve as an incentive to just sitting docked and waiting it out, because sooner or later your opponent won't be able to pay the bill. It's fundamentally an anti-gameplay concept.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#118 - 2015-08-27 14:41:24 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:

What really needs to exist is an actual functional negotiation system where both parties can table offers.


I'm being completely serious here, but like the trade and negotiation system in Civilization. Half duplex, each side takes turns making offers until they are either accepted or one side walks away.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

admiral root
Red Galaxy
#119 - 2015-08-27 14:44:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:

What really needs to exist is an actual functional negotiation system where both parties can table offers.


I'm being completely serious here, but like the trade and negotiation system in Civilization. Half duplex, each side takes turns making offers until they are either accepted or one side walks away.


I would fully expect most of the NPCs we wardec to be as unreasonable at the negotiating table as the civ NPCs are.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#120 - 2015-08-27 14:46:01 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:

What really needs to exist is an actual functional negotiation system where both parties can table offers.


I'm being completely serious here, but like the trade and negotiation system in Civilization. Half duplex, each side takes turns making offers until they are either accepted or one side walks away.


I would fully expect most of the NPCs we wardec to be as unreasonable at the negotiating table as the civ NPCs are.


"Queen Victoria of England has denounced you." For like the fifth time.

Of course you did, you perfidious *****.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.