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Incursions as PvP:

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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-08-20 20:18:18 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

What is preventing you from engaging in PvP with an incursion runner exactly?


It does surprize me me that there is minimal gank during incursions. I mean good isk loot potential. Guess the pvpers dont want to affect their isk earning alts.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-08-20 20:20:50 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Because there's an incursion. Why shouldn't they be penalized?


There is system penalties... The farmers dont care. Penalties affect all except the incursion runners.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#23 - 2015-08-20 20:23:29 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:

There is system penalties... The farmers dont care. Penalties affect all except the incursion runners.

They affect the incursion runners too. they reduce DPS & tank capabilities of the runners.
Salvos Rhoska
#24 - 2015-08-20 20:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Im surprised by the level of resistance, in all its (interesting) forms.

Many of these presented angles I had never considered, but all of them, to my mind, fail against the essentiql PvP nature of EVE risk vs profit (which Incursions are the pinnacle of in EVE HS, barring trader gurus, whom are another threads topic.)

Incursion systems already apply a different rule set, exempt from HS.
Incursion fleets form up with ridiculous bling builds.
They then farm, with impunity, HS highest isk/hr opportunity.
They do so under HS engagement rules.

Why?

I cant get my head around it.

We are talking about uber bling ships, in HS, earning highest concurent profit, in systems that operate under deviant Incursion rules, but whom dont have to deal with any deviation from HS security rules?

Makes no sense to me.

Would it not make more sense to have to FIGHT other fleets, in Incursion systems with its own subset of rules, inorder to earn its highest rewards?

Would this also not introduce essential PvP and risk to those who are flying the most insanely fitted ships in EVE as a matter of course and convenience?

Why not turn Incursion systems into an incidental PvP environment, full of enormously bling targets, whom otherwise currently only whack NPCs for enormous profit, day after day?

I dont get it.
To me its against EVE ethos that superpimp ships can come together and farm isk under HS rules, when the system otherwise is subject to negative modifiers (meaning nobody except the Incursion fleets profits or can operate).

This is a unique and real opportunity to allow PvP in HS amongst the best fitted,(thanks to Incursion system deviant modifiers as a precedent) for the greatest profit and HS real committed fights.

How and why would that be a bad thing?
To me, its all the good things in all ways that matter.

Fight for your right to profit from the Incursion!
Consider your bling setup, against efficiency on site, but also against the potential of hostiles.

It irks me to no end how complacent these guys are, under (and because of) HS engagement rules, with insanely fitted ships (which are not only a matter of pride, but also a requirement for acceptance into fleet).

Nobody, ever, should fly such fits, except at enormous risk, anywhere in space.
Least of all in HS, under the umbrella safety, without some PvP potential, especially against how lucrative Incursions are.

Again, its just damn wrong, anf against all of EVE precepts.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-08-20 20:37:21 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
New incursion effect in highsec: CONCORD response time increases to 60 seconds, irregardless of system sec level.

Why should those transiting through or out of the constellation for no gain be penalized?

Because there's an incursion. Why shouldn't they be penalized?
Because the reasoning presented thus far in the conversation for a penalty is the earnings potential, which they aren't a part of. If we're shifting to just "because Incursion" I guess were fine with the idea that risk/reward relationships don't matter.

Markus Reese wrote:
Penalties affect all except the incursion runners.
Mechanically speaking there are 2 effects which don't effect the runners, halving bounties and Sansha belt rat additions. The rats the runners themselves face are worse and more numerous than the belts and the bounties vs payouts offer no point of comparison since the sites cannot be done outside of an affected constellation and the rats they shoot have no bounties.

The runners can't effectively have special penalties because they cannot operate anywhere else for point of reference.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2015-08-20 20:38:11 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

What is preventing you from engaging in PvP with an incursion runner exactly?


It does surprize me me that there is minimal gank during incursions. I mean good isk loot potential. Guess the pvpers dont want to affect their isk earning alts.


There are lower hanging fruits. The effort to payout ratio is better on other type of ship. Anyone solo ganking is also kinda barred from popping battleships because of game rules that apply in all of high-sec, not just incursion. Same reason why solo ganking of freighter is only possible in rare exception. The incursion runner is pretty much always at least close to his keyboard (gotta F1 those rats somehow...) while hauler/miner for example can be AFK and as such, at least slightly easier targets.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-08-20 20:45:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Im surprised by the level of resistance, in all its (interesting) forms.

You are getting resistance because every aspect of your statement is false save perhaps that the isk gained is high compared to the risk. There is no impunity granted nor exemption from rules, just your failure to recognize that a fleet with logi support is difficult to disrupt in highsec in all situations, even with bling.

The only thing incursions do is give reason for this fleet comp to be more common, but that doesn't justify changing the rules because others can't be bothered to do what it takes to interfere. It's like saying a skiff in a HS belt should be magically capped at 10k EHP to ensure gank profitability for minimum effort and cost. The door doesn't need to be opened to those that aren't willing to overcome the assets and coordination put into ships and fleet comps in any activity.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2015-08-20 21:06:36 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Im surprised by the level of resistance, in all its (interesting) forms.



Your only argument is "because I think so". If you were fighting for a reduction in potential earning you might get support but changing the rules of engagement is kinda silly and just run the risk of making the content barely used at all.

Your issue is you see the bling and dream of killmails but can't be arsed to do the work of generating those KM.

Fun tip: The best site for ganks is probably TPPH because of the amount of people who go afk during the tower bash after all the rats get killed. TCRC don't really let you do that as there are rats during the bash that can wreck any gank boat and NRF are completed as soon as the rat die.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#29 - 2015-08-20 21:07:23 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
@Black Pedro: That's still pretty speculative. It makes an interesting theory, but who knows the extent of the features intent. Time will tell I suppose.

Though if I had to speculate you were right, they simply won't be run outside of RP. It takes 1-2 hours of incursion running to buy and fit/rig a T1 BS depending on the fleet, after insurance that's still going to be about a half hour for a rigged BS. Unless these pay of a T2 fit T1 BS in the course of a couple sites, they're an isk loss on a personal level.

Maybe they'll work for groups that can manage pooling the isk and paying out after loss reimbursement, but the days of PUGs and farming would be more or less over.

It seems likely to me. As you say, no one will run the Drifter ones if they are offered next to the current ones unless they pay much more than the current ones, which is very unlikely, or are as easy. The reports from the test on the test server suggest they are quite hard and prominently feature the doomsday, so the only option for CCP is to remove the Sansha ones if CCP wants them to be run at all.

CCP wouldn't waste the development time if they didn't want people to run them so they will try to balance them to be lucrative enough people run them, but will keep them hard enough that people lose ships. Almost every change made in the last year-and-a-half has been to increase risk and increase ship loss, presumably to stimulate the demand side of the economy, so I am sure CCP is unhappy with the current farmable state of incursions.

They seem to be all about tweaking things these days so I am guessing they are also improving their ability to tune these new incursions to make them easier or harder depending on how players react to them and fast they figure them out. They have been quite diligent with tuning the Drifters so fa so I see no reason this won't continue into the incursions. Everything really depends on how the tune them I guess, but I think it is safe to say that incursions are about to get more interesting, less farmable, and players are probably going to have to figure out how too deal with guaranteed random ship loss as a group.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-08-20 21:15:51 UTC
There was the comments and replies to my "not affect incursion runners" That is with a grain of salt. Technically it does affect them, but at same time it is planned for in the design of incursions. Since it is only competitive in the key fleets, and the control is changed so fast, it overall is no effect from a mechanics point of view. Combat sites are designed for a fleet of a specific size that has the penalties.

Is like a drive to work where traffic is the same everyday. It would be nicer if had a straight ahot but you are used to it, have adjusted to it so know when to leave. Fortunately your route is with flow. Knowing about said traffic, coordinators adjusted flow soxit is optimized. As such, never late. That is incursions. They are designed for penalties. The penalties arw a norm so part of life. Is it still a penalty or just a different fit since you follow it.

Wormholes can have penalties too, but they change accordingly. Cannot use pulsar optimzed in a blackhole. So the penalties and pvp. Look at why is OP saying pvp. One is easier teara of bling, other is to make blink risky. I only care to discuss second. Pvp is incorrect risk as it brings an element that player wont pay to play. So losing players without anything to gain is bad. So risk that will maintain the playerbase. Unknown ia only way. Dynamic combat is most critical, but if the site is random, remove defence penalty from global and make it something more random in site.

Best way though? Have sansha npcs scan down off grid boosters just like players do. Suddenly that mega tank boost isnt a guarantee. Got to bring it into the fight. Increases risk and will give an effect to total dps slowing sites down a little.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Salvos Rhoska
#31 - 2015-08-20 21:16:08 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Im surprised by the level of resistance, in all its (interesting) forms.

You are getting resistance because every aspect of your statement is false save perhaps that the isk gained is high compared to the risk. There is no impunity granted nor exemption from rules, just you failure to recognize that a fleet with logi support is difficult to disrupt in highsec in all situations, even with bling.

The only thing incursions do is give reason for this fleet comp to be more common, but that doesn't justify changing the rules because others can't be bothered to do what it takes to interfere. It's like saying a skiff in a HS belt should be magically capped at 10k EHP to ensure gank profitability for minimum effort and cost. The door doesn't need to be opened to those that aren't willing to overcome the assets and coordination put into ships and fleet comps in any activity.


Absolutely, a full bling and interconnected, practiced Incursion fleet is a very formidable foe.

Yes, they got modules that, in sum effect (and cost) make them very resilient.

All of thid makes for good fight, in a fleet level, in HS, which is unprecedented.

But they are not PvP fit. There comes the angle and opportunity
It makes me sick to look at what Incursion players fit.
We are talking about multibillion fits. Absolutely insane.

I understand your perspective, but also understand mine.
At the point of highest concurrent HS profits, the risk should also be highest.
As stated, and you would not disagree, risk=profit.
What is the risk to an Incursion fleet, operating in HS?
Nothing. CONCORD covers that.
But these are Incursion systems, that apply modifiers by precedent, that ironically fk every other operator in the system, EXCEPT the Incursion fleets.
The actual Incursion sites are well documented, known, and handled by said fleets, and pose no risk, concern or threat.

Incursion fleets are farming enormous profits, with no NPC threat, and no player threat (thanks to HS security).
Its WRONG, no matter how you cut it.

I understand Incursion farmers, and their interests, but nonetheless is still WRONG without a PvP effect.

One central primary alternative to HS PvP in Incursion systems, is relocating them to LS.
Rules of engagement change fundamentally, and its still inline with Incursion lore, albeit in outlying Empire systems.

And god knows LS could use the action, let alone the enormous profit redirected to a sector that knows how to defend and utilize it without r3sorting to the ridiculous HS fittings.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#32 - 2015-08-20 21:21:47 UTC
The risks incursion runners take are the highest of any high sec income source. And require the most co-ordination. And they do have massive NPC threat. People regularly die to incursions just from the NPC's.

Low, Null & WH space also all have income sources that far outstrip Incursions. Especially when you actually use the real number, not the fake number people like to bleat about.
And Low Sec and Null Sec already have incursions, which pay out over 200% more than a high sec incursion, and especially in Low Security, drop a Unique Blueprint.

Basically, you are talking a load of bull, with no resemblance even in passing to the actual reality.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-08-20 21:24:11 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
It seems likely to me. As you say, no one will run the Drifter ones if they are offered next to the current ones unless they pay much more than the current ones, which is very unlikely, or are as easy. The reports from the test on the test server suggest they are quite hard and prominently feature the doomsday, so the only option for CCP is to remove the Sansha ones if CCP wants them to be run at all.

CCP wouldn't waste the development time if they didn't want people to run them so they will try to balance them to be lucrative enough people run them, but will keep them hard enough that people lose ships. Almost every change made in the last year-and-a-half has been to increase risk and increase ship loss, presumably to stimulate the demand side of the economy, so I am sure CCP is unhappy with the current farmable state of incursions.

They seem to be all about tweaking things these days so I am guessing they are also improving their ability to tune these new incursions to make them easier or harder depending on how players react to them and fast they figure them out. They have been quite diligent with tuning the Drifters so fa so I see no reason this won't continue into the incursions. Everything really depends on how the tune them I guess, but I think it is safe to say that incursions are about to get more interesting, less farmable, and players are probably going to have to figure out how too deal with guaranteed random ship loss as a group.
To be specific, I don't believe people will run guaranteed loss incursions even with the removal of sansha incursions. Moreso I don't believe CCP will create a mechanic which pays enough to make a BS loss every few sites trivial while still providing enough profit afterwards to compare to other non-incursion activities to make the effort worthwhile (which is considerable above the effort for current incursions due to loss replacement alone).

The original incursions were different enough from other PvE encounters that most did to make the initial period of adjustment a bloodbath, but basic tactics quickly resolved that. The advent of OHK weapons isn't open for a tactical workaround save minimizing loss and guaranteeing a minimum working expense and effort greatly changing the effort:reward evaluation.

If its raw payout isn't greatly more than current incursions, as the peek we've had at the feature suggests is the case, I can see these causing a shift back to other activities if they replace Sansha incursions. Though that may be the goal. Who knows?
Salvos Rhoska
#34 - 2015-08-20 21:24:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
How about this:

Move Incursions entirely out of HS.

Rules of engagement pre-existant. No change necessary. Simple and sweet.
Fly a full bling ship at your own responsibility, and be prepared for resistance.
Fleet vs fleet to capitalize on the site.
Yet another reason to step outside HS.

Hows that, mah boys?

Running shiney ships, under HS security, has to go.
Either remove them from HS, or enable PvP in Incursion systems
As it stands now, Incursion fleets in HS are making a laughingstock of EVE systems andnd are farmeable with no risk, especially from other playrrs.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-08-20 21:28:17 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
New incursion effect in highsec: CONCORD response time increases to 60 seconds, irregardless of system sec level.

Why should those transiting through or out of the constellation for no gain be penalized?

Because there's an incursion. Why shouldn't they be penalized?
Because the reasoning presented thus far in the conversation for a penalty is the earnings potential, which they aren't a part of. If we're shifting to just "because Incursion" I guess were fine with the idea that risk/reward relationships don't matter.
Huh? We're missing the big picture here.

Incursions should be dangerous. If not, they're a joke.

We all know that no amount of NPCs can be really dangerous, as they're predictable and easily controlled.

Real danger comes from players only, hence the need to nerf CONCORD (60s response).

Then non-incursion runners will be affected too, but that only makes it more interesting.

For example, trade routes becoming more dangerous. Gankers trying to make the incursion last, carebears trying to end it asap.

You know, gameplay, fun, cool stories. Stop thinking like a min/maxer, start thinking emergent gameplay.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-08-20 21:30:08 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Im surprised by the level of resistance, in all its (interesting) forms.

You are getting resistance because every aspect of your statement is false save perhaps that the isk gained is high compared to the risk. There is no impunity granted nor exemption from rules, just you failure to recognize that a fleet with logi support is difficult to disrupt in highsec in all situations, even with bling.

The only thing incursions do is give reason for this fleet comp to be more common, but that doesn't justify changing the rules because others can't be bothered to do what it takes to interfere. It's like saying a skiff in a HS belt should be magically capped at 10k EHP to ensure gank profitability for minimum effort and cost. The door doesn't need to be opened to those that aren't willing to overcome the assets and coordination put into ships and fleet comps in any activity.


Absolutely, a full bling and interconnected, practiced Incursion fleet is a very formidable foe.

Yes, they got modules that, in sum effect (and cost) make them very resilient.

All of thid makes for good fight, in a fleet level, in HS, which is unprecedented.

But they are not PvP fit. There comes the angle and opportunity
It makes me sick to look at what Incursion players fit.
We are talking about multibillion fits. Absolutely insane.

I understand your perspective, but also understand mine.
At the point of highest concurrent HS profits, the risk should also be highest.
As stated, and you would not disagree, risk=profit.
What is the risk to an Incursion fleet, operating in HS?
Nothing. CONCORD covers that.
But these are Incursion systems, that apply modifiers by precedent, that ironically fk every other operator in the system, EXCEPT the Incursion fleets.
The actual Incursion sites are well documented, known, and handled by said fleets, and pose no risk, concern or threat.

Incursion fleets are farming enormous profits, with no NPC threat, and no player threat (thanks to HS security).
Its WRONG, no matter how you cut it.

I understand Incursion farmers, and their interests, but nonetheless is still WRONG without a PvP effect.

One central primary alternative to HS PvP in Incursion systems, is relocating them to LS.
Rules of engagement change fundamentally, and its still inline with Incursion lore, albeit in outlying Empire systems.

And god knows LS could use the action, let alone the enormous profit redirected to a sector that knows how to defend and utilize it without r3sorting to the ridiculous HS fittings.


What makes them not PvP fit beside the lack of point?

What's bad about putting multi billion into your fit? Is there some kind of fitting police that should stop them or are they free to spend their ISK on whatever they please?

The risk for pretty much all HS content is player generated. If no-one step up to do it, it's not the runners' fault. The gankers are busy with miners and haulers. Form a new group of gankers and follow incursion groups. You will always have targets.

The risk is the exact same as anyone operation anything in HS. You can get ganked as long as the ganker find it worth the effort to gank you. If they think their effort is ebtter spent elsewhere, then you will be apssed over for another target. Just like freighter and miners who get ganked or not depending on their fits. You don't see that many skiffs getting ganked do you? Is it because they are immune to ganks? No, they have ebtter defense and there are way too many targets without tank for anyone to bother spending the effort on ganking the skiff so they live. The incursion boat sport enough relative tank to leave the gankers looking for something else to kill.

The incursion runners are affected by the system penalty just like everyone else. Nobody get ****** over more than anyone. You either fit for it or you don't but the system penalty don't care, it applies no matter what. It's as fair as it gets...

Incursion sites are documented because people have learned them. Not the player's fault of CCP think their effort is better spent elsewhere than re-creating new encounter over and over again that we would learn in 2 months top. Also, ship die every day in incursion. They are not immune to stupidity. There are rarely killmails because most people don't post their PvE losses...

Relocating incursion to LS have 2 possible ending. Either they barely get run like the current low sec ones or they get farmed like the HS ones only without the bling.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#37 - 2015-08-20 21:30:28 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

You know, gameplay, fun, cool stories. Stop thinking like a min/maxer, start thinking emergent gameplay.

That applies to you also, you are thinking like a min/max ganker with no thought as to every other facet of the game.

And to Salvos. How about actually knowing the feature you are wanting to change, Incursions ARE in Low Sec already.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-08-20 21:31:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
How about this:

Move Incursions entirely out of HS.

Rules of engagement pre-existant. No change necessary. Simple and sweet.
Fly a full bling ship at your own responsibility, and be prepared for resistance.
Fleet vs fleet to capitalize on the site.
Yet another reason to step outside HS.
Yet another reason to occupy LS (Incursor shooting season!)

Hows that, mah boys?


Or go run SoE lvl 4 for your income and not bother going to LS.

Also, why would you do fleet on fleet action when you can each run a site? You do realise there is more ISK (the end goal of most people running incursion) in letting the other fleet alone and complete sites alone than duking it out and losing a bunch of ship while gaining **** all.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-08-20 21:40:52 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Relocating incursion to LS have 2 possible ending. Either they barely get run like the current low sec ones or they get farmed like the HS ones only without the bling.
LOL at incursions being farmable in lowsec.

Doable, certainly. Farmable, no.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2015-08-20 21:44:19 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Relocating incursion to LS have 2 possible ending. Either they barely get run like the current low sec ones or they get farmed like the HS ones only without the bling.
LOL at incursions being farmable in lowsec.

Doable, certainly. Farmable, no.


At a different rate for sure but people would still do them like any PvE content in dangerous ssytems. Optimise the fit for the content and GTFO as soon as any threat shows up. Even a fleet of inty would be hard pressed to enter system, warp to the right site, take the gate and point the target before the fleet is out of the site. Every FC would give order to always primary any rat that can point to be sure you can cleanly warp out if needed.

That is if people dind't turn to other income because all that is effectively :effort:.