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Clones and immortality
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People's Republic ofChina
My Other Capital Ship is Your Mom
#121 - 2011-12-10 17:43:56 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
People's Republic ofChina wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
To bad they don't make medicine to enhance your reading comprehension. Else we would not be having this conversation.


Also, you are contradicting yourself... so maybe you need a higher dose of whatever it is you have been prescribed.


Show me my contradictions.



Is it about reality?
Or is it about and exercise of thought and potential physics in alternate universes?



That's not an example of me contradicting myself nor is it a contradiction at all. It's two sides of one argument.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#122 - 2011-12-10 17:45:21 UTC
Then my points are valid in both versions of your argument.

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People's Republic ofChina
My Other Capital Ship is Your Mom
#123 - 2011-12-10 17:46:15 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
To bad they don't make medicine to enhance your reading comprehension. Else we would not be having this conversation.


Also, you are contradicting yourself... so maybe you need a higher dose of whatever it is you have been prescribed.


Ad hominem is the only thing this guy is capable of.


You seem angry at me for suggesting advanced forms of energy conveyance in a potential alternate reality. You may what to reconsider your priorities. Just saying.


You are suggesting what is not there, we already have some background information on the transneural burning scanner and cloning in EVE and with the information provided, shows that it's not "transferring the consciousness" but rather a collection of data that defines what the person was during the scan.

Arguing against a point is not anger, that is not how a debate works.
People's Republic ofChina
My Other Capital Ship is Your Mom
#124 - 2011-12-10 17:46:57 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Then my points are valid in both versions of your argument.


I only have one argument, reality and the physics of now. Your points are invalid in my argument.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#125 - 2011-12-10 18:09:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Good, now I will bask in the afterglow of ultimate rightness.



Allow me to also point out that with sufficient matching of downward velocity, Superman could in fact catch the girl without doing her any harm. ZING! Wrong again kid. Sex on the other hand would be a different story, being as though he is liable to copulate with the force of a shotgun.


P.S.

If how his powers manifest themselves is not important... then why can't those same powers catch her without harm even if he did not match her downward fall? I mean they are bound to be pretty miraculous and mysterious right? Who knows what they could do.

Man... you are really out to lunch aren't you? Ugh

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#126 - 2011-12-11 00:54:21 UTC
Singoth wrote:
It is a philosophical debate... so I'll share my thoughts on this.
You base the fact of being "alive" needs to be based on the body you "live in"... But your mind can be transferred. But then again, something which can be stored digitally, can that be called alive? A question like it is: Can artificial intelligences be called "alive"?

If you start a new character now, it's also said something like this: "your original body has been destroyed, and your mind is transferred to a customised clone", which also explains why you need to make a character body when signing up for EVE.

Capsuleers are immortal.
And the fun thing about immortals, in my opinion, is they do not live, because they can not die. Life leads to death. And if you can not die, then you also can not live.
They keep on existing though.
Which then brings us to the ultimate question: is existance equal to being alive? Smile
I personally think "no".
If you think yes, then are asteroids and other such things also alive?

Capsuleers. They are like rocks. Cool


Quoting so people who skip to the last page can see this wonderful comment.

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#127 - 2011-12-11 02:21:14 UTC
Aggressive Nutmeg wrote:

Your thoughts, memories and feelings are chemicals. Your mind (despite what your culture has programmed you to believe) is just chemicals.

The idea that you can instantly analyse, copy and transport these exact complex chemical compositions and then somehow replicate them in a clone is obviously ridiculous. Even if we accept the science fiction, the clone certainly isn't you. It's just a copy of you. Perhaps a bad copy. The orignal YOU is dead.


The original you is over-rated.

Have a few beers, kill a few brain cells. The strong will survive. The future will herald a new, stronger you.
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#128 - 2011-12-11 03:35:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn Makanen
Suggestions for reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_of_the_Whirlwind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man%27s_War (limited)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_Carbon

And go watch Ghost in the Shell.

This is the 'My grandfather's axe' situation. This is my grandfather's axe. The handle has been replaced. The head has been replaced. But it's still the same axe.

What makes a person a person. It can't be the matter you're made up from, because that's replaced. Including braincells (It used to be thought this didn't happen. Apparently, this isn't the belief any more. http://www.pnas.org/content/100/13/7430.long)

Is it memories? Is someone suffering from amnesia the same person?

Pretty much the only explanation that can't be argued against, is the metaphysical. Your soul. The only argument against that is 'what soul?'.

Congrats on a topic that has no definitive answer.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2011-12-11 04:46:34 UTC
Jenn Makanen wrote:
Suggestions for reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_of_the_Whirlwind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man%27s_War (limited)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_Carbon

And go watch Ghost in the Shell.

This is the 'My grandfather's axe' situation. This is my grandfather's axe. The handle has been replaced. The head has been replaced. But it's still the same axe.

What makes a person a person. It can't be the matter you're made up from, because that's replaced. Including braincells (It used to be thought this didn't happen. Apparently, this isn't the belief any more. http://www.pnas.org/content/100/13/7430.long)

Is it memories? Is someone suffering from amnesia the same person?

Pretty much the only explanation that can't be argued against, is the metaphysical. Your soul. The only argument against that is 'what soul?'.

Congrats on a topic that has no definitive answer.

if it had an answer it wouldnt be philosophy now would it? and we all wouldnt sound nearly as smart talking about it.

but in all seriousness, yeah, yall would want to watch ghost in the shell, as i mentioned earlier (and was horribly ignored) this basic arguement is a recurring plot thingy in GITS, both talking about the humans becoming machines/cyborgs, adn the machiens that begin to think independently.

either way, is a good show, good book/manga whatever series, had some good movies aswell.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#130 - 2011-12-11 05:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
People's Republic ofChina wrote:
You speak of the copying of an identity, not of a consciousness.
No, I speak of determining an identity based on something that is inherently identical between the two copies and the original. There is no way to determine which is the continuation of the “original” because they're both the same. Trying to add stuff that makes them different only disqualifies the process from doing what it is supposed to do. That's the whole problem: of course they do not share the same identity (because no two things do, even if these two will initially believe so), but there is no way of determining which is which and the answer is, ultimately, utterly irrelevant.
Quote:
I'm talking about the stream of consciousness of the original being. This is not somehow maintained during a copy,
Eh, no, that is exactly what is maintained in the process — that's the whole point of the process. That's part of why you have no way of knowing if you are a copy or not, because if you do, the process has failed.
Quote:
I'm sure that people would be less concerned about their identity and more concerned with the fact that this method of "Immortality" does not actually maintain their stream of consciousness and therefore they aren't immortal,only their identity is.
But that's just it: the whole point of this immortality method is that it does maintain that stream and that it completely screws over the notion of “original” and “copy”; they are no longer applicable to the source or the result; all you're left with is a simulacrum — that strange infomorph that is perfectly replicable and which is drastically different from the individual it is based on.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#131 - 2011-12-11 05:31:55 UTC
Welcome to 400 B.C.E. Plato says "Hi."

Overhaul Dscan!
Zarutha
The Night Crew
#132 - 2011-12-11 08:08:22 UTC
Read Eve's novel Emperyian Age it touches on this subject in relation to Eve.
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#133 - 2011-12-11 08:21:37 UTC
Singoth wrote:
It is a philosophical debate... so I'll share my thoughts on this.
You base the fact of being "alive" needs to be based on the body you "live in"... But your mind can be transferred. But then again, something which can be stored digitally, can that be called alive? A question like it is: Can artificial intelligences be called "alive"?

If you start a new character now, it's also said something like this: "your original body has been destroyed, and your mind is transferred to a customised clone", which also explains why you need to make a character body when signing up for EVE.

Capsuleers are immortal.
And the fun thing about immortals, in my opinion, is they do not live, because they can not die. Life leads to death. And if you can not die, then you also can not live.
They keep on existing though.
Which then brings us to the ultimate question: is existance equal to being alive? Smile
I personally think "no".
If you think yes, then are asteroids and other such things also alive?

Capsuleers. They are like rocks. Cool


What we call death is the cessation of a process. Life is a process. Death does not define life, the two are mutually exclusive. Life need not necessarily lead to death. Death is not also a necessary or sufficient condition of life. Saying death defines life, or that life must lead to death, is like saying purple defines orange, or that sphere necessarily leads to cube. Its just nonsense.

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!
Singoth
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2011-12-11 08:42:24 UTC
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:
Singoth wrote:
It is a philosophical debate... so I'll share my thoughts on this.
You base the fact of being "alive" needs to be based on the body you "live in"... But your mind can be transferred. But then again, something which can be stored digitally, can that be called alive? A question like it is: Can artificial intelligences be called "alive"?

If you start a new character now, it's also said something like this: "your original body has been destroyed, and your mind is transferred to a customised clone", which also explains why you need to make a character body when signing up for EVE.

Capsuleers are immortal.
And the fun thing about immortals, in my opinion, is they do not live, because they can not die. Life leads to death. And if you can not die, then you also can not live.
They keep on existing though.
Which then brings us to the ultimate question: is existance equal to being alive? Smile
I personally think "no".
If you think yes, then are asteroids and other such things also alive?

Capsuleers. They are like rocks. Cool


What we call death is the cessation of a process. Life is a process. Death does not define life, the two are mutually exclusive. Life need not necessarily lead to death. Death is not also a necessary or sufficient condition of life. Saying death defines life, or that life must lead to death, is like saying purple defines orange, or that sphere necessarily leads to cube. Its just nonsense.


So you can be dead without being alive first?

Less yappin', more zappin'!
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#135 - 2011-12-11 08:59:22 UTC
Singoth wrote:
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:
Singoth wrote:
It is a philosophical debate... so I'll share my thoughts on this.
You base the fact of being "alive" needs to be based on the body you "live in"... But your mind can be transferred. But then again, something which can be stored digitally, can that be called alive? A question like it is: Can artificial intelligences be called "alive"?

If you start a new character now, it's also said something like this: "your original body has been destroyed, and your mind is transferred to a customised clone", which also explains why you need to make a character body when signing up for EVE.

Capsuleers are immortal.
And the fun thing about immortals, in my opinion, is they do not live, because they can not die. Life leads to death. And if you can not die, then you also can not live.
They keep on existing though.
Which then brings us to the ultimate question: is existance equal to being alive? Smile
I personally think "no".
If you think yes, then are asteroids and other such things also alive?

Capsuleers. They are like rocks. Cool


What we call death is the cessation of a process. Life is a process. Death does not define life, the two are mutually exclusive. Life need not necessarily lead to death. Death is not also a necessary or sufficient condition of life. Saying death defines life, or that life must lead to death, is like saying purple defines orange, or that sphere necessarily leads to cube. Its just nonsense.


So you can be dead without being alive first?


I think what you mean to say is, is it a proper identification to call a thing dead if it did not previously meet the conditions for being a living thing. But that is an issue of semantics. Matter is matter. If it is not undergoing the chemical reactions we identify as life then it is not alive. The words we use to describe a particular type of matter that had been undergoing these processes are limited only because of their usage in language. This does not change the fact that something alive is not something dead. It only reveals the limitation and contextual/conceptual naivete of language.

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!
ThisIsntMyMain
Doomheim
#136 - 2011-12-11 09:25:25 UTC
I'm surprised no-one mentioned it already. The whole idea is explored quite nicely in this move ... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#137 - 2011-12-11 09:35:27 UTC
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:
I'm surprised no-one mentioned it already. The whole idea is explored quite nicely in this move ... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/


Agreed!
Chopper Rollins
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#138 - 2011-12-11 11:17:52 UTC
Takseen wrote:

That's not how it would work though. My thought patterns *ARE* me, they're just inseperable from my body.....
....Of course if you believe in a soul that survives the death of the body, you either believe the tech transfers the soul too, or as the Amarr do you consider all capsuleers to be soulless monsters.


There's an ancient exercise called neti, neti meaning, not that, not that. It is a rigorous run-through of all that is not you in search of what is. Anything you have is not you, anything witnessed is not the Witness. Witness the sky, your room, your yard, not you. Witness your clothes, things you have, not you. Witness your body, something you have, it is not you.
Bear witness to your thoughts and feelings and where they intersect, your emotions. All things you have and can witness, therefore not you. The self is an arbitrary and practical boundary useful for distinguishing internal events from external phenomena. There is no real point of division or boundary between self and Universe.
So a part of the Universe has a body with sensations and a mind that is aware of the Universe. Intense and disciplined exercise in 'not that' reveals what is looking through this tiny contracted pinhole of acute consciousness. The Universe of course. Bringing us to the conclusion, thou art that. Everywhere and forever is You, the Universe, sharing in all defeat and triumph.
Conflict is only apparent, not real.

This concludes your first class in Infomorph Psychology, I do believe I have some Tech 2 ammo to buy...


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
DickbeardThePirate
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2011-12-11 11:29:57 UTC  |  Edited by: DickbeardThePirate
This has always been something that bothered me. The way I see it is that it seems most likely that the whole "immortality" thing is something clones are fed to keep them sane and fearless. Maybe they have some science fiction magic that somehow genuinely transfers consciousness instead of just copy-pasting it, but I don't personally believe that could ever be possible. Informorph Psychology is some pseudo-philosophical bullshit they feed you to make you ok with it, and to try and convince you that death will not be the end of your personal experience.

It adds a certain grimdark element to the universe of eve, what with podjumping being a popular form of travel.
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#140 - 2011-12-11 11:38:49 UTC
DickbeardThePirate wrote:
This has always been something that bothered me. The way I see it is that it seems most likely that the whole "immortality" thing is something clones are fed to keep them sane and fearless. Maybe they have some science fiction magic that somehow genuinely transfers consciousness instead of just copy-pasting it, but I don't personally believe that could ever be possible. Informorph Psychology is some pseudo-philosophical bullshit they feed you to make you ok with it, and to try and convince you that death will not be the end of your personal experience.

It adds a certain grimdark element to the universe of eve, what with podjumping being a popular form of travel.


Actually in the books and chronicals pilots are aware while being transported between bodies. You can write this off as hallucination or false memory, if you like; but if you do so you then have to answer, 'How does one define a real thought and experience?' Which is not as easy a question to answer as it first seems.

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!