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Clones and immortality
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Titania Hrothgar
Nemesis Retribution
#1 - 2011-12-09 02:44:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Titania Hrothgar
I wonder if anyone else has thought about this...

Clones do not equal immortality. Take a pair of identical twins.... is one the other? Can one really BE the other and live forever? Twins are typically regarded as two separate people. If one dies, that person is now dead and gone. Their consciousness will not live on. That person, even though there's a clone of them (their twin) will experience life no more.

So when a pilot gets podded leaving their corpse to rot in space, they are dead. They will not live on. Regardless of the fact that their memories are copied and transmitted across the endless reaches of space to a copy of their body, they are gone forever. A copy of themselves is now awake and ready to pick up where they left off.

So.... kind of changes things a bit.... Eve pilots are not immune to death...

All the world's a stage and all the men and women are the players.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#2 - 2011-12-09 02:51:30 UTC
Titania Hrothgar wrote:
I wonder if anyone else has thought about this...

Clones do not equal immortality. Take a pair of identical twins.... is one the other? Can one really BE the other and live forever? Twins are typically regarded as two separate people. If one dies, that person is now dead and gone. Their consciousness will not live on. That person, even though there's a clone of them (their twin) will experience life no more.

So when a pilot gets podded leaving their corpse to rot in space, they are dead. They will not live on. Regardless of the fact that their memories are copied and transmitted across the endless reaches of space to a copy of their body, they are gone forever. A copy of themselves is now awake and ready to pick up where they left off.

So.... kind of changes things a bit.... Eve pilots are not immune to death...



There was a man who left a cave but he did not really he just thought he did.

But thanks anyway for your insightful post. i think ill sleep well tonight.
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#3 - 2011-12-09 03:01:17 UTC
Cept the clones are blanks though and your mind is required to image a new self on it.

True it may not be you, but the same argument can be said about teleportation.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2011-12-09 03:06:20 UTC
Titania Hrothgar wrote:


So.... kind of changes things a bit.... Eve pilots are not immune to death...


Technically, no, as I intend to die in real life somewhere in the next 150 years depending on the progress of biomedical science.
EVE itself should be gone before that.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Alexa Coates
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-12-09 03:09:49 UTC
you do realize it's 50000 years in the future and they have tech we could only imagine and stuff we can't imagine right.

That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter used by carriers.
Pinaculus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2011-12-09 03:11:45 UTC
Science fiction.

It works because it must work, or the setting falls apart.

I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#7 - 2011-12-09 03:12:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Alexa Coates wrote:
you do realize it's 50000 years in the future and they have tech we could only imagine and stuff we can't imagine right.


We only been in space 400 years post reset.

We know that we lost alot of technology in the previous two resets.

Jove are technologically inferior to the Terrans.

Terran technology superiority was provable from 10k years ago.

Who knows what sort of things they are up to today. Hopefully self destruction becuase that is one invasion force we cannot repel.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2011-12-09 03:14:40 UTC
What makes a person a person? Pure physical existance? Or the memories that person holds? When a twin dies that twin is gone because no one holds identical memories and experiences. In eve when a clone dies, the memories are transplanted into a new, identical body. The new is then identical to the old in every way. So the person in question is not dead. The same can be said of jump clones. When a jump clone is activated, the old is placed into suspended animation, and the mental faculties transferred to the new. The old body isn't dead, but it isn't a person either. The new body which used to not be a person, now posesses the intelligence and memories of the old clone, and thus is that person.

In real life a person dies because the physical shell breaks down or is damaged beyond repair. If we were able to transfer our minds to brand new shells we would attain a form of immortality, the same form in Eve.

Your argument is incorrect on two main points. First the twin analogy that I corrected above. Secondly, when someone gets podded, their conciousness is automatically extracted and implanted in a new clone a split second before the pod explodes and they experience death. Yes the clone dies, but at the time of death it's merely a shell. In a first person experience this would be like awakening from a vivid dream, except that the dream actually happened mere seconds prior.
Hark Hanam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-12-09 03:14:46 UTC
It makes sense. All the honorable and morals people in EVE died a long time ago.

EVE is now populated with evil twins only.

that technology sucks !
Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2011-12-09 03:15:28 UTC
Heres the thing. If I built a version of you which had all the same memories and was identical to you in every way.... then killed you. Would anyone else know that you have been replaced?

Its why in eve we are refered to Infomorph creatures. Regardless if one dies, our will will always live on.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2011-12-09 03:41:27 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
Heres the thing. If I built a version of you which had all the same memories and was identical to you in every way.... then killed you. Would anyone else know that you have been replaced?

Its why in eve we are refered to Infomorph creatures. Regardless if one dies, our will will always live on.

we need cool cylon centurion style shades for the NeX store for this reason right here. also, titans just became ressurection ships.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#12 - 2011-12-09 03:45:33 UTC
Real police comets have cylon eyes going on.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#13 - 2011-12-09 03:55:46 UTC
The clones in EVE are mindless. Until consciousnesses is transferred. Once the transfer has occurred, mind and body are identical to the previous one, therefore, whatever philosophical identity a person may have has been moved to the new body.

Therefore, EVE pilots can live forever... as long as they update their clone.Blink
Titania Hrothgar
Nemesis Retribution
#14 - 2011-12-09 03:57:01 UTC
Hark Hanam wrote:
It makes sense. All the honorable and morals people in EVE died a long time ago.

EVE is now populated with evil twins only.

that technology sucks !


This response wins!

btw, to all those who hated this post... it was meant as something to be amusing. If you took it seriously and didn't like it then you fail. It wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

All the world's a stage and all the men and women are the players.
Aggressive Nutmeg
#15 - 2011-12-09 04:01:22 UTC
The idea that mind and body are separate things always amuses me. It's a very religious view.

Your thoughts, memories and feelings are chemicals. Your mind (despite what your culture has programmed you to believe) is just chemicals.

The idea that you can instantly analyse, copy and transport these exact complex chemical compositions and then somehow replicate them in a clone is obviously ridiculous. Even if we accept the science fiction, the clone certainly isn't you. It's just a copy of you. Perhaps a bad copy. The orignal YOU is dead.

It would have been more logical to say that we sit in-station and remotely control our android pilots.

The other option would be to take the thin veil off this pseudo-religious science fiction mumbo jumbo and just say it: We are immortal souls who can be reincarnated instantly upon death.

Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana.
Titania Hrothgar
Nemesis Retribution
#16 - 2011-12-09 04:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Titania Hrothgar
Aggressive Nutmeg wrote:
The idea that mind and body are separate things always amuses me. It's a very religious view.

Your thoughts, memories and feelings are chemicals. Your mind (despite what your culture has programmed you to believe) is just chemicals.

The idea that you can instantly analyse, copy and transport these exact complex chemical compositions and then somehow replicate them in a clone is obviously ridiculous. Even if we accept the science fiction, the clone certainly isn't you. It's just a copy of you. Perhaps a bad copy. The orignal YOU is dead.

It would have been more logical to say that we sit in-station and remotely control our android pilots.

The other option would be to take the thin veil off this pseudo-religious science fiction mumbo jumbo and just say it: We are immortal souls who can be reincarnated instantly upon death.


At last, a true to form scientific response :) Indeed, it IS the brain that holds the YOU, not the spirit. The BRAIN is the only organ that "thinks" and it is the old saying "I think, therefor I am" that applies here :)

Anyway... yes, it was an amusing thread, but I just wanted to point out that this post is true :)

All the world's a stage and all the men and women are the players.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#17 - 2011-12-09 04:09:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
Aggressive Nutmeg wrote:
The idea that mind and body are separate things always amuses me. It's a very religious view.

Your thoughts, memories and feelings are chemicals. Your mind (despite what your culture has programmed you to believe) is just chemicals.

The idea that you can instantly analyse, copy and transport these exact complex chemical compositions and then somehow replicate them in a clone is obviously ridiculous. Even if we accept the science fiction, the clone certainly isn't you. It's just a copy of you. Perhaps a bad copy. The orignal YOU is dead.

It would have been more logical to say that we sit in-station and remotely control our android pilots.

The other option would be to take the thin veil off this pseudo-religious science fiction mumbo jumbo and just say it: We are immortal souls who can be reincarnated instantly upon death.


I don't like your reply. I cannot be arsed to explain in detail why, but I just think you should know.

- Titania, is it really? What would our minds be without our bodies. What would the brain be without the body? What defines YOU? You're just doing the exact same thing as everyone else, re-quoting/stating something you've heard elsewhere.

It's a very philosophical debate and I am sure it'll be a threadnaught.

"The idea that you can instantly analyse, copy and transport these exact complex chemical compositions and then somehow replicate them in a clone is obviously ridiculous."

Why is that ridiculous?
Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2011-12-09 04:13:28 UTC
Aggressive Nutmeg wrote:


Even if we accept the science fiction, the clone certainly isn't you. It's just a copy of you. Perhaps a bad copy. The orignal YOU is dead.
.


If it looks like a duck and talks like a duck...
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#19 - 2011-12-09 04:17:42 UTC
Shivus Tao wrote:
Aggressive Nutmeg wrote:


Even if we accept the science fiction, the clone certainly isn't you. It's just a copy of you. Perhaps a bad copy. The orignal YOU is dead.
.


If it looks like a duck and talks like a duck...

Heck if you want to be picky, the original you died before you were two. Almost every cell is replaced by then, and even brain cells have undergone significant change.

If the human body can replicate itself millions of times over... why is it absurd to think that technology couldn't eventually do the same thing?
Nullity
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-12-09 04:23:17 UTC
Doesn't one of the EVE chronicles or science articles basically make EVE's version of "immortality" analogous to the versions in Ghost in the Shell and Battlestar Galactica? Essentially, consciousness is somehow scientifically transferred. If that isn't the process that takes place, then the OP is right, and clones do not actually keep you immortal.
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