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Dev blog: I feel safe in Citadel city

First post
Author
Alexis Nightwish
#121 - 2015-08-13 22:35:39 UTC
Will outposts ever be phased out in a similar manner to how POSs are to be? If not, don't expect many citadels when outposts still provide 100% protection of your stuff.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Alexis Nightwish
#122 - 2015-08-13 22:39:44 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
There are two different ways of recovering impounded items:

Have items delivered to the closest NPC station. For high-security dwellers, this will be the closest high-security station available. For low and null-security structures, that will be the closest low-security NPC station. [THIS IS THE PART WHERE YOU SAY WHAT HAPPENS TO STUFF IN WORMHOLES] Please note the exact destination will be picked automatically to minimize potential for abuse.

So when a citadel is destroyed in WH space... what? It turns into a pumpkin?

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Roderick Raholan
Order In Disorder
#123 - 2015-08-13 22:39:49 UTC
I apologies if my question has been previously asked and I'm not quite sure if I will get an answer, but I must ask...

So if I recall correctly you would be able to configure a Citadel for manufacturing, giving people incentive to build ships as well as other commodities that are in high demand in great quantities. I can understand that CCP wouldn't want to make the minerals that are involved in builds obtainable after the destruction of a Citadel, but what about high volumes of items or capital ships which require billions in materials. For a single miner out in Nullsec it can take months to obtain such quantities which result in weeks of build time.

Has CCP considered this as an issue? On an alliance scale these losses can seem small, but to a single industrialist who has worked hard to obtain the materials himself could lose months of work unless I'm getting the wrong end of the stick... Why will industrialists risk these longer or high quantity builds in Citadel's if this is the case?

I would appreciate any answer as I am a player which does a lot of manufacturing inside outposts and these changes will have a great impact on my game play, be it negative or positive. I just worry that Industrialists might lose out a little on this one... Sad
goodlady Smith
TheCrazy88s
#124 - 2015-08-13 22:41:03 UTC
I think it works in WHs, yes it makes it safer but too many people once evicted from a WH are gone, WHs holes should be thriving but at this stage the complexity of living in WHs in combination with risk associated means no one is coming to play.
That makes me sad.

I think if you received 50% - 100% of the 10% cost to retrieve items you would actually be close to the value of the items you could expect to receive anyway.

You get the bonus kills in-terms of the implants of pilots killed in station and an added bonus.

Please like my posts it makes me feel better about the time I spend on the forums WTS... Smiles

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#125 - 2015-08-13 22:57:11 UTC
Quick question -- when determining which NPC station to send items to upon outpost destruction, will the game use the distance between solar systems in terms of physical distance in light years or number of gate connections between systems? The example posited in the devblog uses EC-P8R as the source and Anin as the destination, and Anin is the closest lowsec system to EC-P8R both in terms of gates AND physical distance in light years.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2015-08-13 23:03:35 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
I like the ISK sink for recovering your goods from an NPC station. 10% sounds about right as straight up loss to NPC's.

As a way to reward the successful attacker, you should consider raising the recovery percentage to 20%. Have 10% go to the NPC faction as ISK sink and 10% go to the alliance that destroyed your structure.


...or you could let 10% of the loot drop in containers; it's less than a POS (ship maintenance array for example) would drop; but then again, with 90% asset security chances are they will be more stored inside. Previous outposts dropped 0%, POS dropped 50%. I believe 10 percent sounds reasonable, no?

Not sure how I feel about the whole "closest NPC station" thing .... lose outpost in scalding pass, stuff gets shipped off to Derelik? Feels somewhat artificial, kinda like CCP magic because people would cry too hard. Same goes for wormholes: people may never be able to build another POS (pardon: citadel) after they're evicted; so how much time should the losers get to reclaim it, until the phat lootz get shipped off to the conqueror's station instead?

Doesn't seem entire well thought out. I get that CCP wishes to offer some guarantees, but they do it in an uncharacteristically un-EVEly way. Shipping off the goods? For real? You just lost 3 rounds of SOV warfare during which you could have moved it yourself; but don't worry, CCP's got your back?

How about the goods stay in system, impounded somewhere/somehow, until somebody reclaims them? The loser gets 45 days to recover 90% of his possessions in another citadel in the same system; after that, goods are auctioned to the highest bidder?
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#127 - 2015-08-13 23:11:52 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
There are two different ways of recovering impounded items:

Have items delivered to the closest NPC station. For high-security dwellers, this will be the closest high-security station available. For low and null-security structures, that will be the closest low-security NPC station. [THIS IS THE PART WHERE YOU SAY WHAT HAPPENS TO STUFF IN WORMHOLES] Please note the exact destination will be picked automatically to minimize potential for abuse.

So when a citadel is destroyed in WH space... what? It turns into a pumpkin?

From the blog:
"Build another Citadel in the same system to replace the one that has been lost, and deliver the items there. This option will be working the same way for all locations, and will be the only way to recover items out of wormhole space. "

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Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#128 - 2015-08-13 23:13:25 UTC
Two step wrote:
Half of the impound fees should be paid to the player that landed the final blow on the citadel. There should be an incentive to go blow up a very very full citadel, and you should get more than a couple of citadel guns for doing so.

Agreed. Some incentive is required or you will destroy the risk/reward meta. I'm thinking highsec here but the principle applies everywhere.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Sonko146
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2015-08-13 23:27:03 UTC
I'm Comander Sonko and I Approve of this devblog!
Archetype 66
Perkone
Caldari State
#130 - 2015-08-13 23:30:10 UTC
How do you plan for jumps clones in Citadels when they get destroyed ?
Alexis Nightwish
#131 - 2015-08-13 23:33:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish
Vincent Athena wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
There are two different ways of recovering impounded items:

Have items delivered to the closest NPC station. For high-security dwellers, this will be the closest high-security station available. For low and null-security structures, that will be the closest low-security NPC station. [THIS IS THE PART WHERE YOU SAY WHAT HAPPENS TO STUFF IN WORMHOLES] Please note the exact destination will be picked automatically to minimize potential for abuse.

So when a citadel is destroyed in WH space... what? It turns into a pumpkin?

From the blog:
"Build another Citadel in the same system to replace the one that has been lost, and deliver the items there. This option will be working the same way for all locations, and will be the only way to recover items out of wormhole space. "

Thanks I missed that last part.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#132 - 2015-08-13 23:54:05 UTC
Only thing I really want to know is - With these new structures ONLY being affected by Entosis links and their ability to shoot anyone trying to use an entosis link on them - How does an attacking force deal with the incoming damage?
Are there plans to change Entosis links so remote reps are allowed?

Armed Citadel - Attackers come in with entosis links - Citadel shoots attackers.

Or will it be like existing stations / outposts - Disable Citadel defenses, then reinforce it?

The magic wand is not really going to work on a structure that can shoot at the person using it, yet be invulnerable to DPS.
Especially if your going to have to stay alive for an hour or more to RF it.

-- - -- - -- - --
Another good role for interceptors, speed tanked ceptors - Citadel can't track them to kill them, players can't catch them - Ceptors online for the win.


Quote:
On top of the points above, all structures, no matter their size or role, will have warpable signatures like cosmic combat anomalies. None of them will need to be probed to be warped to
RIP Worm Hole residents.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Langbaobao
Tr0pa de elite.
Pandemic Horde
#133 - 2015-08-13 23:56:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Langbaobao
TBH, I don't know how I feel about this whole thing, but having this magical NPC teleport that gets your stuff safe from a citadel that gets destroyed sounds extremely risk-averse and un-EVE like. The level of security that it provides (recovering 90% of your stuff that was stuck) sounds really like a reward for not defending. People are just gonna go: "**** this, let the morons waste time killing it and we'll just grab our stuff in some station". It definitely does not feel like a big loss for the enemy that you're trying to punt out of somewhere. You put in the time to burn their **** and they lose only 10% of their stuff (in the form of ISK impound tax), not to mention the attacker does not get rewarded for killing a structure. Currently killing a POS drops you loot from the hangars and all (the famous loot-pinata) and I can tell you, it's a distinct pleasure when you can loot something out of someone's POS like that. I don't see why stuff should be magically teleported from the destroyed structures. After all, the structures will have reinforce timers like outpost currently have, right? So let them evac their stuff like it's done now in outposts, and if they can't, well, they should have fleeted up and tried. Here are some suggestions that I think might make this system better or at least more rewarding for the people that put in the effort to actually attack the structures:

- Corp and personal stuff should at least in part (25-50%) drop for the attacker like in the current POS mechanics. It would be the reward for wasting time on several reinforcement timers and/or fleet actions.

- I still think people should lose stuff from their citadels like happens with POSes today, however if a system is introduced for people to recover stuff from destroyed structures (magical NPC pony freight service) at least make the loss sting. People should lose at least 50% of their assets if not more, and not a miserly 10% (in ISK no less). The ONLY exception should be the pod and the ship the pilot was sitting in when he logged off. This would mimic the current situation when people log off in POSes can log in after the structure is destroyed and get away with the ship they were currently in. This would make sense as well fluffwise since IIRC the idea was that ships 'moor' into the citadel; and scenes of ships scrambling away from a burning space structure are a dime a dozen in SF movies and so on. It would also prevent having to resort to annoying workarounds like the 'log in in space to save the pod', mentioned previously.

- Related to what was mentioned above, the pilot logging in after his citadel is destroyed should respawn with his ship in the same system where the citadel was. In my opinion they should respawn at the same place where the citadel was placed, but I would consider the option that they appear at a random safe spot somewhere in space, although I'm not so sure about this because it would prevent people being 'bubble-caged' and hence 'reward' them with an increased chance of survival. This would need further discussion.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#134 - 2015-08-14 00:02:22 UTC
So in upgrading from a POS to a citadel, we gain the ability to:

  • evacuate assets posthumously, evading bubbles and killboxes
  • deny attackers the spoils of war
  • avoid the 50% loss penalty when evacuation ships get blown up
  • park supercapitals in a way that they cannot be stolen or destroyed


And these things will be available in hisec too? Sign me up!
Rob Kashuken
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#135 - 2015-08-14 00:07:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Rob Kashuken
Edit: NVM, completely misread something.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Stay Feral
#136 - 2015-08-14 00:07:18 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Another good role for interceptors, speed tanked ceptors - Citadel can't track them to kill them, players can't catch them - Ceptors online for the win.


Citadels can fit webs and scrams. As long as they have a minimum 30km range (T1 entosis range + small buffer) trollceptors are going to have a bad day.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Acks
RONA Corporation
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#137 - 2015-08-14 00:15:02 UTC
LOCKED BPO's

So I read about the cans having their passwords cleared. My question is about any BPO's that may be locked down in hangars.

Since BPO's will be moved via the safe transport mechanism, will they arrive at the new location locked down or unlocked?

If they arrive unlocked, that seems like a workaround to the shareholder mechanics and could be exploited. On the cans you mention making sure you restrict roles so only certain people can recover items from lost citadels. This is a more complex issue with BPO's than other items. A person who would be trusted to recover items may not be trusted to recover BPO's.

Will a new role be created for "recovery" or will this fall under the category of "accountant / Jr. Accountant"? Perhaps add a "grantable role" via a Title?

Assuming BPO's arrive unlocked, this system could also be abused by corps that do not want to have to wait the 24 hours after an unlock vote (not to mention the ungodly click fest of locking / unlocking BPO's). They could unanchor the citadel forcing all items inside to get safe transported and will have saved themselves a ton of time and aggravation.

Thanks,
Acks
Malakai Asamov
Van Diemen's Demise
Northern Coalition.
#138 - 2015-08-14 00:25:38 UTC
In the CSM FAQ document there's a statement even a medium citadel "... will be able to fit some appropriate defenses to offer resistance against most kind of assaults including capital ships".

Does CCP see a way that an entosis ship will survive on grid with a citadel to do what is requiered to RF it? Or can attackers disable a citadels defences somehow?
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#139 - 2015-08-14 00:32:19 UTC
Pinatas for everyone, high, low, null and whs. It's only right.

And let all the clones die - if this creates a new meta where people stop having ridiculous ehp from full slave sets or almost unprobable boosting t3s from halos because their alliance mates might **** up whilst their I the Bahamas, then good riddance ;)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Sky Marshal
Core Industry.
Fraternity.
#140 - 2015-08-14 00:36:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sky Marshal
10% fee to recover our stuff "teleported" into a NPC station seems a bad idea for me, as it can and will be partially avoided by stocking the most expensive stuff in NPC stations or secret locations in high-sec and will be retrieved/removed when needed.

Half of this would be better as it will encourage a few less to do that.

If you really need some ISK sinks, just make sure that building a Citadel or Array will require a decent amount of a whatever item only provided by NPCs orders in the market...