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Stepping Stones

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Author
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#21 - 2015-08-21 03:53:05 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
I read through your post. I don't know enough about low and nullsec politics to say definitively, but it sounds like your proposal makes sense and would do good. I'll give a +1 for you on that.

I do appreciate the time you took to put things into context and lay out what your hopes are for each change, rather than just listing changes you want and hoping people understand it without context. Anyone who says two posts is "TL;DR" can pod themselves :P It is 5 minutes reading, tops. And it is necessary context to understand the proposal.


Thank you for the feedback, Khan.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#22 - 2015-08-21 04:24:39 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Khan Wrenth wrote:
I read through your post. I don't know enough about low and nullsec politics to say definitively, but it sounds like your proposal makes sense and would do good. I'll give a +1 for you on that.

I do appreciate the time you took to put things into context and lay out what your hopes are for each change, rather than just listing changes you want and hoping people understand it without context. Anyone who says two posts is "TL;DR" can pod themselves :P It is 5 minutes reading, tops. And it is necessary context to understand the proposal.


Thank you for the feedback, Khan.


[Cynic] you shouldn't really be thanking someone for feedback when they just admitted that they don't understand the broader implications [/cynic]

On a more serious note why do the most common ideas people never run for CSM?
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2015-08-21 12:40:57 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:

[Cynic] you shouldn't really be thanking someone for feedback when they just admitted that they don't understand the broader implications [/cynic]

On a more serious note why do the most common ideas people never run for CSM?


At least noone can ever say I was dishonest about what I do or do not understand. But while a good point, part of the purpose of forums and threads is to gather perspectives. Since the broader implications would be all speculation (varying degrees of educated guesses), those who have a better understanding of the broader implications can chime in at any time.

For what he spelled out, and the context he provided, it sounds like a good thing. It would be nice to hear from some of the nullsec regulars though, for exactly the reason you outlined. I wonder if we could convince Baltec1 to drop by and converse on this subject?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#24 - 2015-08-21 13:15:45 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Khan Wrenth wrote:
I read through your post. I don't know enough about low and nullsec politics to say definitively, but it sounds like your proposal makes sense and would do good. I'll give a +1 for you on that.

I do appreciate the time you took to put things into context and lay out what your hopes are for each change, rather than just listing changes you want and hoping people understand it without context. Anyone who says two posts is "TL;DR" can pod themselves :P It is 5 minutes reading, tops. And it is necessary context to understand the proposal.


Thank you for the feedback, Khan.


[Cynic] you shouldn't really be thanking someone for feedback when they just admitted that they don't understand the broader implications [/cynic]

On a more serious note why do the most common ideas people never run for CSM?


The day I can afford the time to commit to doing a proper job of it, I probably will. As it is, as a currently deployed servicemember, it is a lot easier to post on the forums...

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#25 - 2015-08-27 11:31:56 UTC
As an example of what I mean by stepping stones, below there are some constellations I would turn into NPC 0.0 space. I have tried to pick these constellations based upon how they open up regions, without regard to the current inhabitants of those regions. If I offend anyone, I have done so as impartially as possible. If CCP were to implement these changes, for the good of the game, I’d see it as the Eve equivalent of using eminent domain in support of urban renewal. CCP can figure out how to deal with the dispossessed parties and I am sure they can come to some reasonable solution.

In developing these suggestions, I spent many hours on http://evemaps.dotlan.net/, perusing Ombey’s 2D maps, and employing the GARPA Topographical Survey tool. I’d like to thank those who built these excellent resources.

Tribute (E3-NLE) – allows easier access to Venal, which in turn makes the entire north more viable for smaller entities. Yes, I am aware that one can currently go around through Pure Blind, having an additional option is a good thing. This allows a Carrier to go: Taisy -> PBD-0G -> Y-W1Q3

Querious (A-Z7C9) – allows easier access to Delve and Querious. Once again, presents another path into the Southwest and makes Delve residents a bit less reliant on owning Querious. This allows a Carrier to go: Upt -> SKR-SP -> A-ELE2

Scalding Pass (WQZ8-4) and Insmother (N-LY4R) – allows easier access to Scalding Pass and Insmother. The changes in Scalding Pass and Insmother allow a Carrier to go: HB-1NJ -> IAK-JW -> F3-8X2

Catch – ZW-BY5 – allows easier access to Catch, and other parts of Angel space.

Immensea – C73-U5 – allows easier access to Immensea.

Feythabolis – I-3ODK – allows easier access to Feythabolis.

I have left some regions as they are – not every region needs an NPC constellation. The idea is to allow for some new options and open up space. I have deliberately tried to leave most regions on the edges of the map alone – there is still a reason to have a dark, dark corner. I will address potential changes to the Drones Region in a separate post, since I believe it has a whole host of problems all its own. The same problems may exist elsewhere, for all I know, but I have lived in the Drones Regions on four separate occasions and consequently have more experience there.

Additionally, if I were given free rein to do this, I would not put an NPC station into every system in these constellations. I’d prefer to see at most 1-2 NPC stations per constellation. These stations would not necessarily be in the “perfect” system for a jump plan. There would be some systems where an alliance could put up a temporary POS/structure, while in other areas there might be an NPC station, just one gate jump away from the “perfect” jump plan system. The idea is not to make it so that every single region has a 5 LY stepping stone, but just to open space up some, shake things up, and allow new blood to flow. Still, my suggestions are by no means exhaustive and I welcome others to make comments or suggestions.

In the alternative to modifying existing constellations, CCP could also simply add some more space to act as connectors.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#26 - 2015-08-27 11:32:53 UTC
For the reasons listed below, the Drones Regions are terrible space if CCP’s goal is actually to allow for many small city-states to own space, rather than having huge coalitions with vast rental empires. Given that, the Drones Regions require more drastic changes than the older parts of New Eden.

Getting into the Drones Regions is currently quite difficult. The regional jumps between the original cluster and the Drones Regions are almost all larger than 5LY and many are larger than 10LY. The Drones Regions are also relatively large and spread out, which means that the eastern edge is even more inaccessible. This makes logistics into the Drones Regions very difficult, unless you control a connection to the rest of New Eden and a chain of systems from your space to that connection. This is bad because it gives alliances wishing to install themselves in the East a huge reason to blue up. They all become mutually dependent on the same connecting systems – once one party gets a stranglehold on those systems, they effectively control who can live deeper in the region. Difficult logistics promotes huge coalitions covering multiple regions.

Some might counter that enabling local manufacturing would remove the need for logistics chains to and from the rest of Eve. This will not work, however, because unless you are surrounded by a huge, friendly coalition, building anything substantial in the depths of such inaccessible space is simply stupid. If you build a nice industrial center, you are pretty much guaranteed to have someone larger come knock over your sandcastle, just because they can. Then, unless they let you evacuate, you are going to lose almost everything trying to get out. When stuck in such inaccessible space, the option is to either bend the knee and kiss the ring, or not build anything substantial.

Additionally, I recognize that Capital Ships can now take gates. That’s wonderful, if you are strong enough. For the average small alliance, however, a Capital Ship moving operation that involves a lot of gate jumps is going to end in fiery death. I would like to see New Eden’s geography adjusted to the point that there were major shortcuts if you took the right gates, but more areas were accessible by jumping into NPC space.

The Drones Regions became huge farming, rental empires due in large part to the geography. It is great space for PVE. Roaming gangs have to make a real effort to pay a visit, chokepoint entrances mean that a scout can see hostiles coming from outside the region very far away, and there is a non-existent hot drop threat. Pretty much the only threats come from wormhole space (and CCP recently made those connections less common). Additionally, even if it was viable to build a home in such inaccessible space, that does not solve the problem of a lack of local content. The Drones Regions are currently a boring place in which to live. Adding some NPC constellations would be a significant shot in the arm for this region, as it brings a whole host of new PVP opportunities to an otherwise stagnant area.

For these reasons, along with some other adjustments, I would turn the following constellations into NPC space:
Etherium Reach (J-78ZG) – midpoint to get into this very large region
Etherium Reach (ICH-B6) – stepping stone deeper into the East
Malpais (PX0-P4) – opens up Malpais and surrounding areas
Oasa (S-Q02B) – opens up Oasa and surrounding areas
The Spire (Z6T6-B) – opens up The Spire and surrounding areas

I would also shorten these jumps to less than 5 LY:
Skarkon –> L4X-1V
LS-JEP –> UDVW-O

I would shorten this jump to less than 10 LY:
Konora –> QBZO-R

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#27 - 2015-08-31 06:53:59 UTC
I could get behind these changes. I like that you choose the Gas constellation in Feyth. Maybe the same should be done for Catch, as it would also improve accessibility to Stain.
In Immensea, I would probably opt for the B-R constellation, historical significance or not, as it is already very close to the Curse region.
The constellation in Querious is definitely a good choice as it currently is of literally no value whatsoever. Would be interesting to see whether GOP- (the only system in Low sec range) would get a station or not.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Thoric Frosthammer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-08-31 18:33:59 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
If you want to get more people into "stagnent" areas of the game (and cause more instability that challenges the status quo) you do not intruduce more "safety" or "connivence" mechanics.

That just creates a new "status quo" that centers around the new mechanics.

IMO... if you want a more dynamic null-sec then you should look at aspects from two other areas of the game where things are always shifting around; low-sec and wormhole space.
- low sec space is always in a state of flux because...
----- no one can keep other people out (no bubble mechanics).
----- no docking restrictions (except for people in FW but that can be easily bypassed).
----- nothing is "offical"... if you want to claim" a place then you make everyone know about it by killing them! Repeatedly.

- wormhole space is terribly hazerdous because...
----- no local chat (no intel, can't see if there are any threats)
----- no one can dock... at all (no security for anyone at all)
----- multiple entrypoints for people to enter that are constantly shifting around
----- nothing is "offical"... if you want to "claim" a place then you make everyone know about it by killing them! Repeatedly.



tldr; cause more fights and instability by removing mechanics that allow people to "claim" space and keep people "out."


So, go back the the system we had where people demanded that the sov system be created lo many years ago? Fix Sov by eliminating it? That seems... a poor choice. The reason noone is taking the space is mostly because noone sees the advantage in owning it who isn't already there. Many of those groups are starting to fall by the wayside too, unless they are big enough to create some sort of renter unit so they can profit off of it.

The OP gets at two points, in an oblique way, that I've been speaking on since the start of my CSM term. First, the population density of Nullsec is such that the extra "distance" created by Phoebe has made it difficult and boring for the parties who might otherwise conflict to reach each other. Its too damn big and there aren't enough people wanting to cram themselves in to that space, despite the assurances by some that as soon as they somehow get rid of big coalitions suddenly there will be some sort of gold rush in null. *eyeroll*. No. There's plenty of space that an entrepreneur could pry loose now if they had an open eye and a willing group, but the facts are they are either too risk averse, or (correctly) don't see that the reward is worth the effort.

There's really only one way of fixing that, and that is to fix the "Why should I hold sov" issue that is at the center of stagnation in null. If you want people to take the risk that they might be blobbed out at any second by their neighbors, the payoff has to be worth losing ihubs or tcus or ships or whatever over and over to defend your little patch. That can be in isk/hr or fun/hr, but right now there's not enough of the two combined to lure many people.

Big entities can, through combinations of renter deals, holding a lot of moons and half a region, or running big reaction farms, etc, manage to make a pretty good living. Small, new entities not so much, despite the very welcome anom buff to what had previously been nearly worthless low negative sec systems.

Some combination of new, interesting group pve opportunities as have been promised in Fozzies blogs before release, new and different resource distribution that might spur conflict, interesting gameplay centered on the new structures MIGHT bring enough people to make nullsec feel crowded again, might not. Otherwise the solution is probably something like what has been proposed here. ACTUALLY shrink nullsec and put in additional null NPC islands or long distance smuggler gates that get people closer to each other and in contact to fight over opportunities.

I still can't help but feel that we'd be better off if Null was so desirable that people would actually fight for it again, instead of going off to live in lowsec like BL/PL/NC. It seems to me that right now most of the people holding it do so more out of habit than desire.

Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#29 - 2015-08-31 19:19:03 UTC
Thoric Frosthammer wrote:

There's really only one way of fixing that, and that is to fix the "Why should I hold sov" issue that is at the center of stagnatio


Link TCU ownership (i.e. SOV flag) to moon income... If you lose your sov, you lose your moon income.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#30 - 2015-08-31 19:36:30 UTC
Why should you hold sov? That question is not solvable with mechanics as long as people do not want to have sov. Want as in maintaining an empire. Running missions in High sec because it is easier money making, for instance, goes completely against wanting to hold sov. Another thing is the "I just mine what sells for the best price in Jita and ignore the other things that can make local industry better" because exporting stuff to Jita and make money there instead of at home is easier.

First and foremost, you need to fix the player attitude like this. If you do not fix this, you can put in place whatever mechanic you want, it will not change anything.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#31 - 2015-09-01 01:12:12 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Thoric Frosthammer wrote:

There's really only one way of fixing that, and that is to fix the "Why should I hold sov" issue that is at the center of stagnatio


Link TCU ownership (i.e. SOV flag) to moon income... If you lose your sov, you lose your moon income.


So, would you remove the low sec and NPC money moons? Or figure that there are so few, relatively speaking, that the draw to sovereign space would still be there.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#32 - 2015-09-01 01:19:09 UTC
Why not some unclaimable sectors that are deserted also as fire breaks to help stop blueing your neighbour.
If your neighbour is right next door, you will often blue them to stop being 1 system away from hostiles.
If they are instead the whole street over with no-one able to move into the inbetween area and live there you don't have as much impetus to live there.
Ala shattered wormholes. Any kind of fluff can be used to explain why no anchorable structures of any kind.

Agree with more little bits of NPC space.
Don't agree with little bits of low sec popping up in null as low sec is Empire sov. Though it does make it easier for people to cash in ESS LP at that point.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#33 - 2015-09-03 05:29:00 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Why not some unclaimable sectors that are deserted also as fire breaks to help stop blueing your neighbour.
If your neighbour is right next door, you will often blue them to stop being 1 system away from hostiles.
If they are instead the whole street over with no-one able to move into the inbetween area and live there you don't have as much impetus to live there.
Ala shattered wormholes. Any kind of fluff can be used to explain why no anchorable structures of any kind.

Agree with more little bits of NPC space.
Don't agree with little bits of low sec popping up in null as low sec is Empire sov. Though it does make it easier for people to cash in ESS LP at that point.


Having seen how vibrant low security space is these days, I could make an argument for some little pockets of it interspersed throughout Eve. One could even use the recent lore as justification for it - pockets of Amarr citizens fleeing Drifter aggression. Maybe even an entire holder family? It's not that I feel very strongly about it, I've just been traveling through Low Sec a fair amount lately and the amount of activity there has impressed me. Unlike many parts of Null Sec, Low Sec has that critical mass of people to make it fun.

Still, it's an idea, not a mandate. To me, the most important bit is having the places for new groups to use as stepping stones, staging points, and refugee camps.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2015-09-03 08:57:05 UTC
i live in npc nullsec and have done sov nullsec aswell, i think the size is fine as it is -1

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#35 - 2015-09-04 03:05:25 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I could get behind these changes. I like that you choose the Gas constellation in Feyth. Maybe the same should be done for Catch, as it would also improve accessibility to Stain.
In Immensea, I would probably opt for the B-R constellation, historical significance or not, as it is already very close to the Curse region.
The constellation in Querious is definitely a good choice as it currently is of literally no value whatsoever. Would be interesting to see whether GOP- (the only system in Low sec range) would get a station or not.


These are also good suggestions for Catch and Immensea. Please make it so, CCP.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#36 - 2015-09-28 11:28:14 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
i think the size is fine as it is


That's what she said!

Thank you for your contribution to this thread.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-09-28 11:34:28 UTC
Will read this later, just because it's you FT, but that is alot of text :/

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#38 - 2015-09-28 13:53:07 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Will read this later, just because it's you FT, but that is alot of text :/


Thank you. I appreciate that. I actually trimmed it down a lot before I posted it.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-09-28 14:32:10 UTC
4 forum posts is still alot FT lol(yeah I'm included the additional details posts)



IDK, I don't have a plethora of experience in Null so I'll have to take your word on some of it. Adding more ways to BE there with some small measure of security I think is a good thing. The risk of losing a tower or station and everything with it is a big turn off for people on the edge, it has been for me for.... 6 years now? All in all +1. NPC space provides a nice medium. I would consider going a little farther and adding a few NPC Cyno jammed systems in some of the main NPC clusters, or in a few of these constellations, dead zones one can't drop a bunch of caps, but could still bring them through gates maybe.



As far as adding a reason to do things in null over high sec, I think your answer there should be in structures. Refining arrays you can only anchor claimed space, or construction arrays, networks, observation arrays, infrastructure of many sorts, things that could only be fit or anchored in Null like the super capital construction arrays.

Personally, I'd also like to see what in simplest form would be 'links' arrays that could only be fit to XL citadels or the like, something that would provide a most definite advantage for being in that system, but could still be shut down with a successful entosis cycling.


Yes, I'm aware how vague I'm being. As I've said, I don't have a huge amount of experience in null, but if I were to define what it would take for me to want to go out and capture systems, outside of just gaming with the guys I've gamed with for a few years now, it would be the ability to capture x system and then build a veritable fortress out of it, and from there be able to reach out and influence the systems around me.



Somewhat constructive response FTW?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-09-30 21:02:06 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Khan Wrenth wrote:
I read through your post. I don't know enough about low and nullsec politics to say definitively, but it sounds like your proposal makes sense and would do good. I'll give a +1 for you on that.

I do appreciate the time you took to put things into context and lay out what your hopes are for each change, rather than just listing changes you want and hoping people understand it without context. Anyone who says two posts is "TL;DR" can pod themselves :P It is 5 minutes reading, tops. And it is necessary context to understand the proposal.


Thank you for the feedback, Khan.


[Cynic] you shouldn't really be thanking someone for feedback when they just admitted that they don't understand the broader implications [/cynic]

On a more serious note why do the most common ideas people never run for CSM?



Something about CSM requiring a certain personality type which the 'Common Ideas' people often are not?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

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