Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Fleets are flown without vets. Theres a list of killmails in this thread that show that.

And why are items sitting in station? Are you saying that because I can buy but cannot fit an invulnerable field II I am missing out on content despite the fact I can fit a meta version that does 80% of the job?

THATS your argument?

It is completely OK to unsub if this playstyle does not suit your taste. That is your choice. Everyone has different tastes and preferences. However, the playstyle itself does not need to bend so that it suits this particular kind of preference.

You do not need to fly T2 ships to have great fun in PVP, you do not need to use T2 or T3 ships in order to be efficient in PVE. You do not need to use T2 ships in order to be good at hauling. You do not need to use T2 modules and rigs in order to get a lot out of your ship. In fact, it is oftentimes outright unnecessary or counterproductive to use T2 over T1 meta items.

Specialized things are limited to those who commit to use them, who learn to use them. For those who do not want to commit time or SP, there are always T1 ships available to them. Specialized items and ships (are supposed to) offer an upgrade over the already powerful and versatile T1 and faction tools. Specialization requires you to train the skills in order to get the most -- not a lot like in T1 tools --, the most out of a hull. It is completely pointless to argue that people should be able to fly a HAC with 0 skills as a HAC with 0 skills performs worse in every regard than their T1 counterpart.

--

Also:

It is not about realizing whether something is great or not before you play it. It is about doing some research an activity and evaluating base on that research whether you want to invest time and money into the skill training. However, if you already stop before the research and think, that's not worth your sub, your idea was indeed not great and your way to play games is neither wanted nor welcome in this hobby/game.

Oh, and before I forget it: Playing Minecraft in creative mode is not what I was talking about and it is no way comparable to the real game. It is a simulation mode to test things, similar to the asset creator mode in Cities, but not to actually play the game.

This is oddly, still, setting up "playstyles" as something that can be judged without playing. Especially without a lot of experience, watching videos gives very little for even what target options a ship/fit includes. If unsubbing happens before even a decent interpretation of playstyles is plausible, how is that not a game problem?


This isn't what's being stated, and is thus a strawman.

There is a ludicrous amount of training between starting and being effective. Inb4 "tackle frigates":



Following suit, responses in bold:



Actually, supposedly, 50% already have.

Source

Warm memo that subscriber amount is overall less important for sustaining more subs than a decent amount of characters playing the game.

So now youre trying to say that everyone whos left between 2013 and now left because they couldnt fly a carrier from day one?

That's fine and dandy in principle.

But as it stands playing with a 5mill SP character in a game with even 30mill SP characters is like swimming across a Sea instead of taking a boat. Sure, it is mechanically possible, but not realistic. If there was a margin of error large enough for people to compensate with actual real skill rather than stats then it'd be a fine gameplay pillar. But this is a numbers game. Hence the perception that you do nothing but wait till you arbitrarily pass the entry barrier. Which is even worse than grinding because you commit real money for what is seemingly no action time. You can argue as much as you want that, in the meantime, one can go and do whatever they want. There are very few mechanics that allow that... Siphoning would have been a fun activity newbros could have affected the game's landscape with whilst waiting to train into HACs or whatever meta stuff is, if it wasn't so API butchered...

This seems a sort of reoccurring idea, so here. What is a main, alternative reason that characters would unsub? Ganking? That's been disproven and, in fact, is shown (in development keynotes) that the opposite is true. The characters who got ganked had the highest retention rate (1% of the study group), the ones who had gotten in a wardec or other purposeful engagement had slightly less retention (13.5%), and the ones who lost no ships were most likely to unsub (85.5%). As for account cancellation, less than 1% cited ship loss / harassment as the reason. That seems plenty of evidence against PvP being the deterring factor of the game, frankly.

If there's no alternative for the idea that SP limitations are unrewarding, then what basis is there for deemphasizing SP as a problem?

From one of the keynotes, the goals for fresh subs:

Confidence

Progress

Purpose

Excitement

Does SP promote literally any of these? In fact, what happens when a ship fitting is found, but it doesn't fit? Plausibly, a program like EFT would be downloaded, which shows not only a list of reasons why that's so, but also the ships performance next to Lvl 5s. The point is that figuring out how much training the game requires ("for decent effectiveness" at this point, because min-maxing is common in all games) becomes apparent. For "the type of playstyles that should be welcome to the game", as it's put in some of these replies, it becomes apparent just how ineffective any one ship is. How much more for the less "initialized" style of sub? Yet the truth is that these biases and stereotypes are unfounded and silly. A lot of the statistics for the keynotes aren't discussing the mobile game demographic, it's discussing those that have (beyond a starter account!) subbed for the game.



Subs are important for the company and the game, as stated in the company's videos. "Better players.. because the best players are the ones that stay. It should scale well, in case there are tons of players coming in from 'This is EVE'. Players as content.. because that's great for setting up a lot of gameplay."

..Or why fresh subs are great for veterans: "Having friends that could get in the game but haven't. A lot of our best content comes from new players -- they're enthusiastic.. some are less than experienced, so they are great targets. New players as recruits.."

Even the company sets up fresh subs as great for content.

The alternative reason is that those who unsub because they cannot get the kind of instant action they want are trying to play a game that is not made for them and should not be made for them. Even if you made all ships and modules available to players right from the start, without skilling (whether by grinding (and this is never to be implemented in EVE. Grind mechanics to gain SP/improve skills in something in MMO have time and again proven to be a terrible mechanic.) or time-based) an AF is worse than a a T1 frigate, a HAC is worse than a T1 frigate simply because they cost way too much. Skilling is fundamental to any game that has some kind of long-term orientation; and EVE is the epitome of long-term orientation.

A player builds Confidence over time from the small tools up to the big tools. Players in EVE learn to play the game with frigates, learn to kill people with frigates and, most importantly, learn the basics of the game in affordable tools. Frigates also offer the kind of instant, up close action.

A player progresses. Over time. Even when they do not play or cannot play. You can always skill as long as you are subscribed. You also progress with the personal skills. You learn to fight in frigates, reach a point where you want to start engaging bigger ships and learn to fly bigger ships. You research about the ships, about the capabilities, you ask people how to fly one, what to avoid, what you can engage. Or if you are an industry player, you start with building small things (modules, frigates, rigs) and as you skill more, progress into producing larger things, more things, higher volumes, for more hubs. Or you want to take on the challenge to find an corp/alliance that you want to supply with ships/modules.

A player finds their purpose by joining a player corp/alliance and fulfills duties, like scouting, logistics, supplying the alliance, working as master tackler, as a perfect bait cyno or hot-drop cyno. Or they find their purpose in monopolizing a trade hub over time (such thing is currently underway), or be a dedicated capital supplier for the greater populace of EVE (such thing already exists successfully for years) or become a leading force in finding and mapping wormhole connection (also exists). Or you want to be the theory crafter par excellence for frigate/cruiser/whatever ship fitting and show everyone that you can come up with amazing fittings for a variety of situations (very important role in many alliances). There are plenty purposes that someone can chose as their goal in EVE.

A player finds excitement by doing something. You can find a ton of excitement in frigates. You can even find a lot of excitement in a badly skilled cruiser if you work as a bait for a group. Players need to be made aware of these things. And players need to be educated that flying a HAC is simply not something you start with. If you want to, and waste tons of time, you get an account and buy a suitable character for that purpose and (hopefully, as you are a moron) realize what big mistake you made. Or you enjoy it and are really an amazing fast learner and get the hang on flying a HAC or BS without losing billions in ISK. that's also fine. I highly doubt that, however, as most people do not quite have the brain capacity for that. Those, who have it, do not to be told these kinds of things in the first place.

What all this requires, however, is time. If you are not willing to invest time, EVE is not for you. Fresh and new subs are nice, however, bending and breaking the game for the sake of making the underdeveloped, uncivilized, unskilled, unintelligent, impatient, ruined masses stay in the game is not the way to go -- ought not the way to go.

Personal opinion: Slaughtering new players is not something I think of as "great targets". They cause a laugh or a chuckle, but since they do not know what they are doing. It's a kill mail, but certainly none that I consider a great achievement. However, judging by your comments, some other people's comments, by the comment from CCP and by the general societal development in EVE, I am afraid that I am nearly alone with this sentiment. vOv

It's certainly one of the things keeping me subbed to EVE. The skillpoint system as it stands is extremely casual friendly, since even someone with severely limited playtime like me can earn progression. If this were like WoW, where nothing advances without significant playtime investments and the whole game is structured to favor no-lifers, I simply would not play it.

I'm not alone either, not by a long shot.

And it loses subscribers like a bucket with no bottom if they dont constantly create new expansions.

Progression and character development, character investment, is an attractive gaming experience for many and it keeps people playing for the next goal and then the next and the next.

Thats why they added such mechanics to just about every genre in gaming.

And lately, even if they do.