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Jump Fatigue Feedback

First post First post First post
Author
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#481 - 2016-02-13 23:07:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Murkar Omaristos
It is not just capitals affected by jump fatigue. That is the problem IMO. We used to have all kinds of good fights because we could chain jump bridges to catch up with people. Now this "Local Content" being forced on us has diminished a lot of the fights that we used to get with subcaps.

I totally agree with the changes that have been made for capitals, they are perfect. However they are far too punishing on subcap fleets, black ops, etc. and it's hurting activity levels across the game.

Lessening jump fatigue on cruisers (excluding T3s) and battlecruisers would really put some punch back into the game.
MIKE Commander
Setenta Corp
Mordus Angels
#482 - 2016-02-14 09:48:04 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
It is not just capitals affected by jump fatigue. That is the problem IMO. We used to have all kinds of good fights because we could chain jump bridges to catch up with people. Now this "Local Content" being forced on us has diminished a lot of the fights that we used to get with subcaps.

I totally agree with the changes that have been made for capitals, they are perfect. However they are far too punishing on subcap fleets, black ops, etc. and it's hurting activity levels across the game.

Lessening jump fatigue on cruisers (excluding T3s) and battlecruisers would really put some punch back into the game.


Well this was the plan since the beginning to limit the fleet fights and guarding of vast territories with a few supers. Now all that is fixed with the jump fatigue. RIP titan and supers, RIP capitals, RIP large fleet fights, RIP fights.
Sissy Fuzz
Sissy Fuzz Communications
#483 - 2016-02-15 15:08:19 UTC
I like the concept of having jump fatique affecting ship combat readiness instead of the pilot.

Like for instance a weakness in structure or maybe powergrid/cpu that takes some calculated time to heal. You can jump your capitals around all you like, but they will be more and more vulnerable as you do. Of course this opens for the possibility of having logistics in place to keep ships in store around the map, but then that's that - the cost of projecting instant power will grow proportionally. Acummulative effects on hulls, for example, could be in place, i.e. jump capable ships need overhaul after x LY of jumps. To make it progressionally resource intensive to project power.
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#484 - 2016-02-16 14:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Hairpins Blueprint
Jayne Fillon wrote:
First!

Other suggestions:

  • Give other ways for players in deep nullsec to reach empire without having to blue everyone in between.



I think this FTL would come handy here .... Lgisticks are a pain in eve, would be cool if JF's could make some extra long jumps.

I am sure tham more people would like to live in much deeper sapce, and as said, there would be no need to blue everyone up.




Let JF's carry goodies on Super long dinstances. Like from low sec empire into far wild drones land etc.


Ez Logistics = more pew more trade more everything

like now after 5 cynos you end up with 30 min fatigue on JF. Let them do one extra long jump with 30 min fatigues instead.

make it one extra long jump with long timer. that will eat 50 - 100k isotopes

People would baction from pockets without worry for logistics. A lot more people would be inntrested in taking some far away space.
Mazare Mircea
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#485 - 2016-02-17 03:14:50 UTC
I don't know if this has been mentioned but logistics/moving caps in NPC sov space is now an absolute nightmare.

You have to pass through sov and the locations are highly predictable.

Moving your capital out of there is now like moving a super (in terms of planning and difficulty), and overall a massive chore.
Archeras Umangiar
Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere.
We're all going to die.
#486 - 2016-02-20 22:05:42 UTC
can we get an update on (if) ccp decidede to take anything in here into account and what not

just a little update maybe on whats happening about jump fatigey and range.


from my pov, its fine so far, it just needs 1-2LY (2 might be bit exesive) more range wise for regular caps/bridges
Dograzor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#487 - 2016-02-22 00:54:01 UTC
Dear CCP,

It has now been more then 6 months from the start of this thread.

I expect that you still will react accordingly and implement the feedback given.

Please let us know that at least something is happening.
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#488 - 2016-02-22 03:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Murkar Omaristos
Dograzor wrote:
Dear CCP,

It has now been more then 6 months from the start of this thread.

I expect that you still will react accordingly and implement the feedback given.

Please let us know that at least something is happening.


LOL CCP RESPOND TO PLAYER FEEDBACK

Cheers mate, I just about bust a gut, funniest thing Ive seen here in a while XD had a good chuckle reading this, you've made my day :)
Edriahn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#489 - 2016-02-23 08:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Edriahn
So it has been 6 months and nothing happened. With the feedback being largely negative, what is the next step.

Most of the changes you're preparing for Citadels would be worthless without reworking fatty gay and jump ranges.

EVE is in its most boring state and now using caps and supercaps is a privilege only the largest alliances have. We're stockpiled more than ever and don't have **** to do with em. And no, no one is thrilled about shooting structures with caps and supers either. Is this how it's gonna be? Let us fight.

[20:46:05] Komahal > pl is cancer

Anthar Thebess
#490 - 2016-02-23 09:47:14 UTC
What do you expect to happen?
Look at killboard->capitals, and compare this to the times when 1 guy in a carrier could make circles around the eve for the whole day.
More ships are dying, much more.
Local people can use bigger toys without bored blocks dropping full capital fleet on their heads 5 minutes later.

Fatigue is annoying, but made eve a better place for people who don't choose to join big block.

The only thing that i would change is that jumps in 1 region generate 1/4 of fatigue, but jumps between regions give you 4 times as much fatigue as now.

This will promote regional fights, while keep long range travel in check.
If someone will decide to use each regional gate for long range travels - even better for all eve players.
Zockhandra
Outback Steakhouse of Pancakes
Dreadbomb.
#491 - 2016-02-23 10:37:00 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

Thanks for those that attended the Q&A session today, we appreciate those who took the time. We'd like to use this thread as a method of discussing Jump Fatigue ideas.

Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
  • Altering jump ranges
  • Altering jump fatigue curves
  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
  • What does local-content mean to you?


We'd also love to hear your ideas, post away space friends.

Metrics Pron


Quick note of alternative Jump Systems, Why not introduce a 'charged' drive. For example, For Quickly jumping between systems, the current jump system works well, particularly in small clusters. It would be pretty cool if we could have 'Far-cast' beacons. The idea of which follows:

Far-casters are similar to jump bridges in the sense that they can hurtle ships from one location to another.... With a difference. These immense structures can be paired over vast distances, using them can hurtle a ship to potentially very far away places.

However the downside is, that these structures can only send a certain amount of mass before they have to shut down and recharge (longer recharge times based on how often they are used, similar to jump fatigue for ships).
When activating this structure, your ship is anchored to its location for an amount of time (pending on distance needed to jump), your capacitor is slowly drained, and as with the ESS structures, your position is regularly broadcast in local.

Naturally these structures will not be able to hurtle capitals (with the exception of freighters and jump freighters), and also allow a ship to jump to fleet cynos (so long as the beacon remains for the full duration).



Using these structures will Instantly fill your fatigue timer, upon successful jump. So the main points are:

-Can send ships vast distances
-Can only be anchored at the sun (to harvest each stars magnetic field)
-Shortens potentially ++hrs of travel to 30 minutes

-Long structure down time
-High ship vulnerability
-Instant fatigue fill

With the addition of Entosis, i've come up with a cool idea for the effects that they have on the structure.

If reinforced by entosis, this structure will continue to operate, however due to the destabilised systems, any incoming fleets could (misjump) up to 3LY from the intended system. This includes any regular jump bridges leading to the system.

If this structure is destroyed, the local star will began violent spasms and (depending on type) will create system wide effects. (armor/shield/capacitor) penalisation.

There can only be one of these Bridges in each 9 LY of space.


Thoughts?


Shield are red, Armor is too, i slapped my heavy neut, all over you. Fingers crossed, broken shattered and burned, across from the bubble and into your hull.

Edriahn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#492 - 2016-02-23 18:51:22 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
What do you expect to happen?
Look at killboard->capitals, and compare this to the times when 1 guy in a carrier could make circles around the eve for the whole day.
More ships are dying, much more.
Local people can use bigger toys without bored blocks dropping full capital fleet on their heads 5 minutes later.

You are kidding, right? What local groups? The only caps that die are the ones ganked by subcaps. Caps and supers are only good for baits and it rarely works. There are no capital, not to even mention supercapital battles anymore. You cannot escalate and people are scared to go in. LSH, Tishu and Project Mayhem have lowsec locked and almost no one is using supers in 0.0. A lore more caps are dying because of charity suicides, getting ganked while moving or just Goons killing their own supers.

There was never 1 guy in a carrier that can make circles aroung EVE. There are good and bad players, if you're bad, you'll die. More ships are dying compared to what? What game are you playing?

[20:46:05] Komahal > pl is cancer

MIKE Commander
Setenta Corp
Mordus Angels
#493 - 2016-02-25 00:00:15 UTC
I don`t think that more caps are dying. Since that stupid jump range change, i haven`t used my carrier, neither the dread, the dread i sold and the carrier is sitting parked in low sec, that should probably sell after this post. The fatigue is annoying and the jump ranges are crap.
I believe that those limit the game a lot. Okay leave the fatigue be it and this way moving vast distances will still be limited, but please give us back the old jump range changes. Without them capitals are worthless.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
Federation Uprising
#494 - 2016-02-25 01:17:57 UTC
Speaking strictly from a game mechanic perspective, if I'm interpreting the entire fatigue thing right, it's to keep the large ships from going nuts all over the place and ransacking things at will before others can react to mass movements of large ships.

If that is indeed true, it's a rather complex mechanism both to operate and explain.

I think it might be wiser to just use different drive techniques... of which two come to mind:

SLOW STEADY FTL:

Just say the capital ships are too massive to gate or 'jump'. Instead they must use a totally different tech to get around. Make it slower, much slower. A gate jump or other jump is mostly instant, maybe a few moments. Moving a capital ship should pretty much exhaust its capacitor or at least take forever to charge a dedicated FTL drive capacitor. The actual flight should be on the order of minutes with range limited by the drive capacitor (which you could outfit to go further at the expense of other systems). Moving from point A to B be could be large jumps of the universe but take a day to do. A few systems distance should take almost an hour or a little less. This lets others react to possible aggressive movements and allows the 'calvary' to be either just in time or miss the opening salvos. It would make interesting fight math.

The second would be to not allow Capitals or larger to jump at all.

Worm Hole Ships:

A special ship could be built to create a wormhole from point A to point B. The size and capability of the ship would determine distance. The Capitals could use the worm holes, but after X amount of mass, the hole closes.

You could literally poke a hundred holes in space and jump in a fleet for battle this way and it would look really cool. It would create entirely new industries and mechanics. No single point cyno or jump locations, now it could be everywhere, with the limitation that an invading fleet would need to rally point up before attack, giving defenders a chance to do the same to counter them.

Just a couple of ideas that others have laid out but I'm tossing out in my own variant.
kelmiler delbone
JSIG Holdings
Shattered Freeholds
#495 - 2016-03-21 10:47:39 UTC
I always felt that jump fatigue should be somewhat tied to the cyno, so the more people that bridge onto the same cyno the higher their fatigue.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#496 - 2016-03-21 19:41:03 UTC
kelmiler delbone wrote:
I always felt that jump fatigue should be somewhat tied to the cyno, so the more people that bridge onto the same cyno the higher their fatigue.


People would just use more cynos. Fit the ship that jump to the first one with cynos and make then light up to send multiple wave to different unique cynos.
Tian Toralen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#497 - 2016-03-24 20:04:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tian Toralen
I somehow gathered 3 days of jump fatigue while doing a Guristas Fleet Staging Point (using jump bridges).
Next day there was a strat-op I joined, there was a jump, my jump fatigue grew to 4days, and 12 hours timer before any jumps. Good thing my ship exploded during that op, else I would not have been able to come back with the rest of the fleet. Right now there is another strat op, but I chose to wait out 1day to get rid of this fatigue...

Why do we even have jump bridges? Jump bridges should not add fatigue.

Also - jump clones timers. How am I supposed to PVE for isk and PVP with the same pilot? No, I will not be using any alts, on principle.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#498 - 2016-03-26 23:13:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Edriahn wrote:
So it has been 6 months and nothing happened. With the feedback being largely negative, what is the next step.

Most of the changes you're preparing for Citadels would be worthless without reworking fatty gay and jump ranges.

EVE is in its most boring state and now using caps and supercaps is a privilege only the largest alliances have. We're stockpiled more than ever and don't have **** to do with em. And no, no one is thrilled about shooting structures with caps and supers either. Is this how it's gonna be? Let us fight.

I wonder if the answer to your post (and the current lack of capital / super fights) is in your post.

Read what you posted and just see if "you" can work out why CCP is a little against opening up Super / Capital movement.

-- - -- - -- - -- - --
A few select groups in Eve are the reason the rest of us had use of supers and other capital ships, nerfed into the ground.
That in itself is not really a problem, except those few dominant groups won't fight each other (no-one wants to risk losing a super /capital fight) but they are more than happy to drop a large amount of supers on much smaller target groups..

Cowardice and risk aversion are the 2 main reasons capital warfare is in such a bad state. No amount of balance effort from Devs can fix that.
Coming capital changes - A total waste of time and effort, without finding a way for them to be used without the blob effect. PL, Goons and a few other Super heavy groups are so risk averse and afraid to risk losing they will only ever use their might against those who don't have the ability to put up any real resistance.

PVP as a whole in Eve is no longer about "Gud Fights", its about winning with minimal risk. 3 supers and a few subcaps drop on 3 dreads and a few subcaps, insta pop 1 dread and give "gud fight" in local as everyone else (not with the supers) scrambles to jump out to an exit cyno. I have to ask, where was the fight? The supers were never in any danger of losing, so how was it a gud fight?

Edriahn is right about 1 thing. If capitals and supers are being set up as the ultimate structure grinders - I'd like to request 2.5 years of training and the isk I spent buying my titan be reimbursed.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Tian Toralen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#499 - 2016-03-27 10:19:14 UTC
Why does jump fatigue adds less if I travel with an industrial ship than if I travel in my capsule?
What am I going to do with the capsule, jump to the other side of the map and blob the unsuspecting enemy with capsules?
Steelrattty
Broski North
SAMURAI SOUL'd OUT
#500 - 2016-03-29 02:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Steelrattty
As a returning player who has played this game on and off for 11 years this is how I see fatigue. CCP implemented a change in order to promote the use of capitals by smaller entities without the fear of being in the near infinite reach of larger alliances super fleets.

Cool, why did you have to nerf jump freighters by association? its already enough of a pain to move assets in this game, why make it even harder?

Cool, why did you have to nerf black ops by association? its already hard enough to catch people with this 18,000km grid where people have a 9.5 second warning your cruiser is landing because of this dumb warp change combined with the large grid that you're landing on their grid. You had to nerf the ability to be mobile with black ops which was their only goddamn purpose in the context of the game.

CCP, you need to think about what you're doing before you do it. Why did every ship with a jump drive have to be nerfed by association when you only had to add fatigue to supers/dreads/carriers, please explain.