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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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Author
xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#441 - 2015-11-09 14:52:16 UTC  |  Edited by: xttz
The concept of jump fatigue is much better than the execution. While EVE did need travel limits to be introduced, they've been done in a hamfisted way that is very unintuitive for players and reduces scope for player choice.

Despite a stated goal to reduce long-distance travel time for capital ships, the current formula actually punishes multiple shorter jumps more than long ones due to the way fatigue builds up. Thanks to the short max ranges for most ships and a fixed lower bound on the fatigue formula it detracts from the sandbox element of Eve. There is little trade-off between short jumps with lower penalty or long jumps with a very high penalty.
It's also rather convoluted from a mathematical point of view. How many of you can predict the overall impact of fatigue and jump delay from a route without using out-of-game tools?

An opportunity to balance a key aspect of capital fleets was missed with Phoebe; watchlists. A huge amount of capital intel comes from the ability to observe player activity across the map with very little effort. This in turn reduces the scope for surprise traps and ambushes where capitals are most vulnerable. The power of watchlists is tied just as much to the use of capitals as jump ranges and fatigue.

Most importantly, jump fatigue in it's current form only serves to increase stagnation. Short jump ranges incentivise groups to keep the bulk of their capitals lumped together at home, rather than out in the field. Short jump ranges also hinder well-planned traps, by making it almost impossible to set them up without being spotted.

The upcoming capital rebalance is going to be sorely under-utilised without changes to both fatigue and to watch list mechanics.
bijboaca
Perkone
Caldari State
#442 - 2015-11-10 08:28:11 UTC
The cool down timer would have been enough to radically alter nullsec travel. The AIDS (farigue) portion just appears punitive on top of it.

It's punishing as most players have a carrier, and a dreadnought and possibly jump freighter. Move ops are a nightmare and you just see mass fleets self destructing rather than having to make multiple trips over days.

With the limited mobility, the ship and fleet hangars should have been doubled or quadrupled in size.

Ham fisted sums it up.

You have tracts of nullsec unclaimed. They're too hard to resupply due to logistics. And a lot of trussec is worthless

The 5 LY limit is the biggest issue. Due to the geometry of the map, some areas are only reachable through single gates or systems. This isn't good design, watching capitals or supers picked off defenseless because their owner was sent to Iraq and missed a move Op.

It's like you rented a car with 2,000 mile range, drove into the Everglades, then we're told upon arrival your range is now 500 miles. Then trying to justify it as good because the alligators are having a great time eating people on foot.


Phoebe has been the most disappointing iteration I've ever witnessed in Eve. If your attempt was to expand the player Base you've done it cat the expense of the current. You are not going to gain four new players for the four accounts you lost here with Cyno alts, who did PI for fun, fueled the occasional tower, and then the holder toons which can never be reactivated because of the space they're stuck in.

HY, you whelped Eve.
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#443 - 2015-11-13 02:59:33 UTC
leave this **** alone. ive had more fun undocking battleships than ever before. dont change a thing.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

BABARR
Lowlife.
#444 - 2015-11-13 13:50:08 UTC
Your jump fatigue systeme is just "too complicated".

Create 2 kind of cyno :
-travel cyno : long range, lpw fuel cost, when you land on the field you are at 0 capa, you can't activate module for 1min, can't lock for 1min. And give a big "pvp fatigue"
-combat cyno : short range, high fuel cost (for cynomaker and for ship to jump/bridge), low fatigue and ship landing like now.

And if you want "create content" and put a bit more of fun, make a combat cyno "precision" : if you want jumping close to the beacon, your ship have to be at more than 1AU of any celestial (beacause gravity disruption, or anything else), to avoid the no-brain move (undock-jump to)
Tex Bloodhunter
SciFiCentral Explorations Inc.
#445 - 2015-11-17 12:21:50 UTC
How about a "Jump Guidance Beacon" that can be anchored on a POS. It should be anchored at a POS in the alliance staging system. The effect would be that alliance capital ships don't get their jump fatigue increased when traveling home.

Power projection to get in on fights would remain the same. Getting home after an op wouldn't be such a pain. Obviously only a very limited number of these modules (2-3) should be available per alliance.
Natheniel
Mostly Sober
Aggressively Average
#446 - 2015-12-01 16:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Natheniel
This post was from get_bent on reddit, many people wanted it posted up here for devs and others to see. I am relaying the post to you guys.

Quote:
Fatigue should act as a multiplier for your fuel consumption, but not prevent you from jumping (until you fatigue so bad your ship can't hold the required amount of fuel).
Then the player gets to make the choice if successive jumps are worth it, for large alliances fuel becomes a strategic asset vs a tactical one, and ice farmers get a boost.
The idea of a timer for something before I can do it just sucks and my carrier is rotting away.

From YA0 (Dek) to H6-E (Wicked Creek) right now costs 55,770 isotopes with JDC and JFC V over 74.37LY. That's 37m for one nyx from one end to the other.
FOR EXAMPLE

Let's say every 5LY doubles your fuel cost based on your current fatigue timer. Now instead of 55,770 isotopes and 37m isk it costs 1,827,471,360 isotopes and 1,187,856,384,000.00 (that's trillion) isk.
Can you make that last jump? Of course not. It's cheaper to buy a fleet of nyx at your destination. But for small jumps it stops being a huge factor. You can bounce between neighboring systems without having to take a timeout like a 2yo.
But maybe a 15 light year jump is strategically important for an alliance and they think it's worth the 300m isk to get a single nyx on field.


I personally disagree with this because it benefits people with deep pockets to keep jumping away, i think the idea of a timer to 'recharge the drives' is agreeable and realistic. Discuss!

"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."

Derek Kanjus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#447 - 2015-12-01 16:44:55 UTC
Natheniel wrote:
This post was from get_bent on reddit, many people wanted it posted up here for devs and others to see. I am relaying the post to you guys.

Quote:
Fatigue should act as a multiplier for your fuel consumption, but not prevent you from jumping (until you fatigue so bad your ship can't hold the required amount of fuel).
Then the player gets to make the choice if successive jumps are worth it, for large alliances fuel becomes a strategic asset vs a tactical one, and ice farmers get a boost.
The idea of a timer for something before I can do it just sucks and my carrier is rotting away.

From YA0 (Dek) to H6-E (Wicked Creek) right now costs 55,770 isotopes with JDC and JFC V over 74.37LY. That's 37m for one nyx from one end to the other.
FOR EXAMPLE

Let's say every 5LY doubles your fuel cost based on your current fatigue timer. Now instead of 55,770 isotopes and 37m isk it costs 1,827,471,360 isotopes and 1,187,856,384,000.00 (that's trillion) isk.
Can you make that last jump? Of course not. It's cheaper to buy a fleet of nyx at your destination. But for small jumps it stops being a huge factor. You can bounce between neighboring systems without having to take a timeout like a 2yo.
But maybe a 15 light year jump is strategically important for an alliance and they think it's worth the 300m isk to get a single nyx on field.


I personally disagree with this because it benefits people with deep pockets to keep jumping away, i think the idea of a timer to 'recharge the drives' is agreeable and realistic. Discuss!


I personally really like the idea of jump fatigue giving an increased fuel consumption instead of a reactivation timer. Fuel cost is fairly cheap, but as fatigue scales up you would end up consuming your whole fuel bay to make a partial-range jump, which means you still have a hard cap on how quickly you can move across the cluster via jump drive.

You would definitely have Jump Freighter fuel trucks, which I think is actually pretty awesome. A large capital fleet should require logistics (not the repairing kind).
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#448 - 2015-12-01 18:25:14 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Natheniel wrote:


I personally disagree with this because it benefits people with deep pockets to keep jumping away, i think the idea of a timer to 'recharge the drives' is agreeable and realistic. Discuss!


Why shouldn't more resources yield an advantage? It's a bit tautological, as In the abstract, all you're saying is, "People with more money can spend more money."

And why would the line on "Resources = Power" be drawn here?

Why wouldn't we draw it at, say, officer mods, or even faction and deadspace mods or, hell, just draw it at spaceships, because people with deep pockets can afford to field bigger and better ships and can more easily soak the losses when they pop.

What's so special about jumping a capital ship that it should be wealth-agnostic?

Not to say that I love that idea or anything (haven't thought it through yet), but your particular argument is uniquely nonsensical. Literally everything that has an associated cost has a relatively greater impact on the guy with fewer resources, including jump fuel as it currently exists.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Vailen Sere
The Pannion Domin
#449 - 2015-12-01 20:00:27 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Natheniel wrote:


I personally disagree with this because it benefits people with deep pockets to keep jumping away, i think the idea of a timer to 'recharge the drives' is agreeable and realistic. Discuss!


Why shouldn't more resources yield an advantage? It's a bit tautological, as In the abstract, all you're saying is, "People with more money can spend more money."

And why would the line on "Resources = Power" be drawn here?

Why wouldn't we draw it at, say, officer mods, or even faction and deadspace mods or, hell, just draw it at spaceships, because people with deep pockets can afford to field bigger and better ships and can more easily soak the losses when they pop.

What's so special about jumping a capital ship that it should be wealth-agnostic?

Not to say that I love that idea or anything (haven't thought it through yet), but your particular argument is uniquely nonsensical. Literally everything that has an associated cost has a relatively greater impact on the guy with fewer resources, including jump fuel as it currently exists.

Because it's more fun killing that Bling fit Tengu than paying for all that jump fuel.
Toriessian
Moscato Mania
#450 - 2015-12-06 04:40:05 UTC
I'd propose that Jumps/Bridges to covert cynos not create fatigue. Its a kinda rough in practice using a mixed fleet of bombers/Recons/BLOPS BSs and keeping it all together. The Black Ops are too expensive to truck through null gate to gate to get back to a staging system, and its kinda crappy all around for them to just have to sit cloaked in the middle of a hostile staging system burning off fatigue.

Black Ops BSs really need the mobility back.



Every day I'm wafflin!

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#451 - 2015-12-11 19:29:37 UTC
Derek Kanjus wrote:
Natheniel wrote:
This post was from get_bent on reddit, many people wanted it posted up here for devs and others to see. I am relaying the post to you guys.

Quote:
Fatigue should act as a multiplier for your fuel consumption, but not prevent you from jumping (until you fatigue so bad your ship can't hold the required amount of fuel).
Then the player gets to make the choice if successive jumps are worth it, for large alliances fuel becomes a strategic asset vs a tactical one, and ice farmers get a boost.
The idea of a timer for something before I can do it just sucks and my carrier is rotting away.

From YA0 (Dek) to H6-E (Wicked Creek) right now costs 55,770 isotopes with JDC and JFC V over 74.37LY. That's 37m for one nyx from one end to the other.
FOR EXAMPLE

Let's say every 5LY doubles your fuel cost based on your current fatigue timer. Now instead of 55,770 isotopes and 37m isk it costs 1,827,471,360 isotopes and 1,187,856,384,000.00 (that's trillion) isk.
Can you make that last jump? Of course not. It's cheaper to buy a fleet of nyx at your destination. But for small jumps it stops being a huge factor. You can bounce between neighboring systems without having to take a timeout like a 2yo.
But maybe a 15 light year jump is strategically important for an alliance and they think it's worth the 300m isk to get a single nyx on field.


I personally disagree with this because it benefits people with deep pockets to keep jumping away, i think the idea of a timer to 'recharge the drives' is agreeable and realistic. Discuss!


I personally really like the idea of jump fatigue giving an increased fuel consumption instead of a reactivation timer. Fuel cost is fairly cheap, but as fatigue scales up you would end up consuming your whole fuel bay to make a partial-range jump, which means you still have a hard cap on how quickly you can move across the cluster via jump drive.

You would definitely have Jump Freighter fuel trucks, which I think is actually pretty awesome. A large capital fleet should require logistics (not the repairing kind).


This is actually an awesome idea.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Cartheron Crust
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#452 - 2015-12-16 00:32:44 UTC
Toriessian wrote:
The Black Ops are too expensive to truck through null gate to gate to get back to a staging system


Ahahahahahaha. The stargate boogeyman too scary for your "expensive" ship? Lol
Crimsons Storm
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#453 - 2015-12-16 11:07:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimsons Storm
Ok with the current ships we have in game, jump ranges are not "fine" but I get why they got kicked so hard.

Moving fitted ships across the galaxy should not be as hard as it is and short of giving carriers the ability to jump a little further than 5 ly, the game needs a better way to move.

Eve is far to dynamic and far too large for it to be as hard as it is to move around now days

If the consensus is to leave jump ranges as they are, then the game needs a new ship for moving fitted ships that is not a god dam piƱata (cough *bowhead*)

Bowhead with a jump drive the same range as a JF or something to that effect

Totally agree on super blobs not being able to get from one side of the map to the other in 10 mins.....but people are leaving by the droves because its too effing hard to move ones (fitted and rigged) assets around.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#454 - 2015-12-16 16:26:29 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Derek Kanjus wrote:
Natheniel wrote:
This post was from get_bent on reddit, many people wanted it posted up here for devs and others to see. I am relaying the post to you guys.

Quote:
Fatigue should act as a multiplier for your fuel consumption, but not prevent you from jumping (until you fatigue so bad your ship can't hold the required amount of fuel).
Then the player gets to make the choice if successive jumps are worth it, for large alliances fuel becomes a strategic asset vs a tactical one, and ice farmers get a boost.
The idea of a timer for something before I can do it just sucks and my carrier is rotting away.

From YA0 (Dek) to H6-E (Wicked Creek) right now costs 55,770 isotopes with JDC and JFC V over 74.37LY. That's 37m for one nyx from one end to the other.
FOR EXAMPLE

Let's say every 5LY doubles your fuel cost based on your current fatigue timer. Now instead of 55,770 isotopes and 37m isk it costs 1,827,471,360 isotopes and 1,187,856,384,000.00 (that's trillion) isk.
Can you make that last jump? Of course not. It's cheaper to buy a fleet of nyx at your destination. But for small jumps it stops being a huge factor. You can bounce between neighboring systems without having to take a timeout like a 2yo.
But maybe a 15 light year jump is strategically important for an alliance and they think it's worth the 300m isk to get a single nyx on field.


I personally disagree with this because it benefits people with deep pockets to keep jumping away, i think the idea of a timer to 'recharge the drives' is agreeable and realistic. Discuss!


I personally really like the idea of jump fatigue giving an increased fuel consumption instead of a reactivation timer. Fuel cost is fairly cheap, but as fatigue scales up you would end up consuming your whole fuel bay to make a partial-range jump, which means you still have a hard cap on how quickly you can move across the cluster via jump drive.

You would definitely have Jump Freighter fuel trucks, which I think is actually pretty awesome. A large capital fleet should require logistics (not the repairing kind).


This is actually an awesome idea.


So hype r rich groups can project power with impunity, thus ensuring that they can dominate arbitrary amounts of space and become even richer? Within 3 months we're back to the 1-2 powerblocs owning everything status quo ante except that ice is far more expensive and now it costs 2b a month to run a pos in hi sec

Sounds awesome. He's a genius.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#455 - 2015-12-17 03:54:10 UTC
I think that an economy/resource based jump model is more honest.
Like expended fuel rods the more you burn the more you have to replace and of course you can only do one at a time so the power draw on the other rods increases which burns them out progressively faster the more you keep going.

Anything that stimulates the use of space gets a tentative +1 from me.

P.s. end incursions.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#456 - 2015-12-17 15:34:14 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


So hype r rich groups can project power with impunity, thus ensuring that they can dominate arbitrary amounts of space and become even richer? Within 3 months we're back to the 1-2 powerblocs owning everything status quo ante except that ice is far more expensive and now it costs 2b a month to run a pos in hi sec

Sounds awesome. He's a genius.


How can jumping capital ships, at an exorbitant price, allow people to dominate "arbitrary amounts of space." What does that even mean? "Arbitrary amounts of space..." What? Do you mean large amounts of space? Newsflash, the Imperium already dominates large amounts of space. A lot of the rest of space is a deserted wasteland during most time zones.

Do you really think that being able to spend a trillion ISK to move a supercarrier from Deklein to wherever means the Imperium will dominate from Tenal to Delve?

How does this mesh with the Aegis sov changes? You still need players to hold that space. Players don't exactly grow on trees. And you still have to deal with the fact that caps suck at Entosis fights.

And if ice is more expensive, than that means more people out in space mining it (or more ISK for those people who do mine it). It's terribly boring, at least it should pay well.

And if it really starts to cost 2b ISK to run a POS in high sec, than maybe that form of industry will have to move somewhere else. Or maybe POS's are going away anyway...

I think some people are still stuck in 2013. To them Phoebe and Aegis never happened.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch and Tea
#457 - 2015-12-21 17:26:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Karash Amerius
"Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)"

Ok, I will bring this point up again because everyone in this thread seems to be a bit "in the box": Cyno mechanics are terrible gameplay. Any system that forces the player to create another alt account just to move jump freighters around is beyond ridiculous. Being a "Cyno Pilot" is not a legit career choice in Eve. One could argue that a force recon pilot should be, but lighting a cyno is akin to signing your death warrant in most cases, especially if just doing logistics.

I get the need for players to be able to accurately drop a ship or fleet in a specific place in space - but having a pilot being immobile for a long time is terrible gameplay. Why do we still accept this as just the way of life? Legacy code issues aside, this should be possible to fix.


  1. Logistic Cynos (AKA Station Cynos): Allow the capital (or Black Ops) pilot to pay for Cyno services at the target station. The Station will light a cyno remotely and allow that pilot to jump within docking range. You could have the requirement that Fuel needs to be in the personal or corp hanger for this to happen (tweak however you wish). POS and Citadel Cynos would work the same way. This eliminates the poor alt account sitting outside a station waiting to be blapped by anyone (talk about immersion breaker). Modify for standings and such as well (would be a good tie in for FW mechanics).

  2. Combat Cynos (AKA Hotdrops): We still have to have a mechanism to bring a capital fleet on grid. Keep the cyno module and mechanics for lighting it, but remove the immobility part. Make a requirement that the cyno pilot has to stay within a certain range, or reduced speed or increased mass. Tie it to the grid, or come up with other creative solutions. I realize in the code, when you cyno to a lit beacon, it actually performs the move request to the Pilot...so, you will need to recode Cyno Beacons as objects to interact with inside the fleet. There could be multiple beacons lit by the same pilot at different spots on the grid (again, make it a skillful enterprise), and the FC or bridge could manipulate that to his strategy.

  3. Covert Ops Cynos: Allow them to be used inside deadspace areas to disrupt PVE and FW stuff. Balance them to your heart's desire (maybe no caps, just covert ops ships?), but we have to have a way into these areas...right now they are safe zones, to a point. Allow them to be used and bridged to within the same system as well, opening up WHs such as Thera, and making large systems more dynamic.


I hope we can start talking about Cynos in relation to everything being discussed with the capital and jump mechanics. It is really being left out of the conversation, and that is a crying shame. It is a legacy mechanic, and a horrible one at that.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#458 - 2015-12-21 22:08:40 UTC
Quite frankly, this is an idea I would completely endorse.

It's time we move forward in gameplay and this suggestion does that.


-Balder



Karash Amerius wrote:
"Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)"

Ok, I will bring this point up again because everyone in this thread seems to be a bit "in the box": Cyno mechanics are terrible gameplay. Any system that forces the player to create another alt account just to move jump freighters around is beyond ridiculous. Being a "Cyno Pilot" is not a legit career choice in Eve. One could argue that a force recon pilot should be, but lighting a cyno is akin to signing your death warrant in most cases, especially if just doing logistics.

I get the need for players to be able to accurately drop a ship or fleet in a specific place in space - but having a pilot being immobile for a long time is terrible gameplay. Why do we still accept this as just the way of life? Legacy code issues aside, this should be possible to fix.


  1. Logistic Cynos (AKA Station Cynos): Allow the capital (or Black Ops) pilot to pay for Cyno services at the target station. The Station will light a cyno remotely and allow that pilot to jump within docking range. You could have the requirement that Fuel needs to be in the personal or corp hanger for this to happen (tweak however you wish). POS and Citadel Cynos would work the same way. This eliminates the poor alt account sitting outside a station waiting to be blapped by anyone (talk about immersion breaker). Modify for standings and such as well (would be a good tie in for FW mechanics).

  2. Combat Cynos (AKA Hotdrops): We still have to have a mechanism to bring a capital fleet on grid. Keep the cyno module and mechanics for lighting it, but remove the immobility part. Make a requirement that the cyno pilot has to stay within a certain range, or reduced speed or increased mass. Tie it to the grid, or come up with other creative solutions. I realize in the code, when you cyno to a lit beacon, it actually performs the move request to the Pilot...so, you will need to recode Cyno Beacons as objects to interact with inside the fleet. There could be multiple beacons lit by the same pilot at different spots on the grid (again, make it a skillful enterprise), and the FC or bridge could manipulate that to his strategy.

  3. Covert Ops Cynos: Allow them to be used inside deadspace areas to disrupt PVE and FW stuff. Balance them to your heart's desire (maybe no caps, just covert ops ships?), but we have to have a way into these areas...right now they are safe zones, to a point. Allow them to be used and bridged to within the same system as well, opening up WHs such as Thera, and making large systems more dynamic.


I hope we can start talking about Cynos in relation to everything being discussed with the capital and jump mechanics. It is really being left out of the conversation, and that is a crying shame. It is a legacy mechanic, and a horrible one at that.

Anthar Thebess
#459 - 2015-12-23 08:55:28 UTC
Just an idea.
Make fatigue timer to speed up while mining, and to be exact with the m3 mined.
PLS CCP, this will make this game complete Roll

********************************************************
* MINING FLEET AFTER MOVING OP. *
* DON'T FORGET TO PACK UP MINING SHIPS *
********************************************************
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#460 - 2016-01-16 06:56:35 UTC
In regards to jump fatigue I have some major reservations and mixed feelings. I am not a cap pilot; however I can see how irritating this mechanic can be. Having just recently made a move within the same region I cannot help but grit myself at waiting hours between jumping. Waiting for my fatigue to go down otherwise incurring a week long fatigue debuff which would prevent me from moving anything at all. It feels seriously imposing and frustrating. It is a royal pain in the Jamyl Sarum.

However, I also acknowledge the fact that it benefits smaller entities (atleast from what I can see) preventing alliances from monopolizing large portions of space for very little effort. I now actually fly battleships once in a while - even though there is still the chance of being ganked.

Regardless, I do think it needs to be changed - I'm not sure how. But it would bring some life back to the game and allow for logistics to be somewhat easier. At the same time, black ops should not even have to deal with Jump Fatigue - same with Jump Freighters.