These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Jump Fatigue Feedback

First post First post First post
Author
Tzu Wu
Perkone
Caldari State
#401 - 2015-10-02 22:45:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzu Wu
I don't think you should get jump fatigue from jump bridges within systems your alliance holds the sov in.
Dograzor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#402 - 2015-10-04 10:17:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Dograzor
First off thank you CCP for being open for suggestions on power projection with capitals. It has long been overdue in my opinion. I will give a reply to your points and also outline the general problem that is with the status quo.

The current problem:

Let us say that I go on a deployment to Curse. Curse is a NPC region known to have a lot of fun pvp, our alliance likes to deploy there and the conquerable nullsec regions around Curse are hostile to us. I deploy from Tenal with the rest of our alliance, in a move op that takes about 3 hours, by taking gates and an occasional cyno jump. I take with me an Archon filled with pvp ships, I also take some ships with me for alliance mates who can't fly capitals yet. I also take an alt with me who brings a dreadnought.

I have a fun deployment from Curse, we have a lot of sub capital fights and a few good capital fights which are good fun.

All of a sudden I get called by my work, something is up, and the next two weeks I don't have time to play EVE. After two weeks I get back in game, and I see that my alliance has deployed elsewhere and that there are no move ops that I can join. I calculate the jumps that I have to make to get back home:

23 jumps. (28 for players that do not have Jump Drive Calibration V)

Seeing that in the current system and my current playtime available I can make 3 to max 4 jumps on an evening that I play - it will take a full weeks worth of my play time to catch up again. And yes, I have invested that time in the past because I still love this game, but it is becoming too much.

For those complaining about:

"Look for more local pvp"
"Stop trying to use capitals because they break the game"

No. Every single newbie that starts this game looks in awe at capitals (I did back in '09). And they want one too. And capitals are awesome (except their power projection). Should we go back to the old days where everybody could teleport around the map? No, but the current situation is not working either. And looking for more local pvp - I like to be able to go fight who I want to fight, even if they are not next door.

Also CCP - Keep in mind not only capital owners are negatively affected by the status quo - Newbies are as well, as in the past they would get help by veterans who were willing to transport their ships for them.

Now my 2cents on:

  • Altering jump ranges

  • Yes please. With the fatigue I can live. The jump ranges I cannot. Bring back the old jump ranges. If not, please refund us our Jump Drive Calibration skillpoints.

  • Altering jump fatigue curves

  • No need of changing in my opinion. Force projection should be limited. However - make it - including with jump ranges - that players are able to get from halfway the universe to their location in 1 or 2 evenings of playing - and from one side to the other in 3 days.

  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based

  • No, prone to abuse. I'll max out jump fatigue on a ship and then insurance fraud it (supers/titans excluded).

  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)

  • I am open for new ideas, but not sure what the idea behind it is?

  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)

  • This should be for jump bridges. Alliances invest heavily in their infrastructure with very little real reward for it, the effort > reward at this point.

  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection

  • Jump projection v.s. Gate projection is unbalanced at this moment, I see most alliances taking gates with their capitals as jumping is too problematic. Wormhole is... a wild card. It can feel a bit overpowered at times, but it is always fun to be able to launch surprise attacks.

  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement

  • No, capitals still jump into combat 90% of the time. This gives local capitals that did not need to jump an unfair advantage.

  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)

  • Maybe, but not 24h. I would like to see original jump ranges with a 1 hour transforming process into move mode, once at destination a 1 hour transformation process back into combat mode, then a 24 hour cooldown before it can be used again. All with all this will keep all parties happy, you cannot be dropped on during a fight as it will take at least 1 hour to get back into combat mode, and capital owners are happy that they can move more freely.

  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)

  • Mmm no. I already have modules for warp speed, align speed etc. This needs to be fixed at the core and not another module.

  • What does local-content mean to you?

  • Current local content for me is having people roam around our space and we engage.

    What my preferred local content is, is huge fights where entities fight for their very existence. However this is not tied to capitals, it is tied to all the regions being too balanced and there being no greed nor incentive nor reward for needing someone elses space. But to be very honest, this is the content that is lacking in this game at the moment and is also your biggest issue why veterans are quitting EVE (and yes, that is a lot of people I know who have quit for that reason).
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#403 - 2015-10-05 16:04:41 UTC
Dograzor wrote:
Seeing that in the current system and my current playtime available I can make 3 to max 4 jumps on an evening that I play - it will take a full weeks worth of my play time to catch up again. And yes, I have invested that time in the past because I still love this game, but it is becoming too much.


Working as intended.

That midget Greyscale wanted exactly this and he got it then left. We are stuck suffering.

Not today spaghetti.

CaptCC Seneca
Gladiators of Rage
The Initiative.
#404 - 2015-10-06 03:59:04 UTC
Big Issues but can be fixed,, !!!!

* Altering jump ranges

OMG
Yes please. With the fatigue I can live with the change.
The jump ranges I cannot. Bring back the old jump ranges.
If not, please refund us our Jump Drive Calibration skill points, our Capitals. Supers. Titans, now the game has changed , there was a expectation of jump range when we bought them.

* Altering jump fatigue curves

Force projection should be limited. However, make it - including with jump ranges - that players are able to get from halfway the universe to their location in 1 or 2 evenings of playing - and from one side to the other in like 3 days, for a example.

* Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based

That could cause other issue which would or could end up worse.
So No from me, as would be prone to abuse. I'll max out jump fatigue on a ship and then insurance fraud it (supers/titans excluded).

* Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops
(e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)

Maybe, but not 24h. I would like to see original jump ranges with a 1 hour transforming process into move mode, once at destination a 1 hour transformation process back into combat mode, then a 24 hour cool down before it can be used again. All with all this will keep all parties happy, you cannot be dropped on during a fight as it will take at least 1 hour to get back into combat mode, and capital owners are happy that they can move more freely.
This Game needs to be FUN ! .
We don't need this being a second job, it will drive players away to other games, ...ARK, AA3, etc there is a long list remember..which can be FREE, or at very little COST.

* Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
Cant say I like that idea, much at all. Lets fix it at the point of issue.


* What does local-content mean to you?

Current local content for me is having people roam around our space and/or us in their space and have engagements.

Preferred local content is, is large fights, where groups fight for their space and/or to take space.
However this is not tied to capitals, it is tied to all the regions being too balanced and there being no greed nor incentive nor reward for needing someone space.
But to be very honest, this is the content that is lacking in this game at the moment and is also your biggest issue why veterans are quitting EVE (and yes, that is a lot of people I know who have quit for that reason).


Quotes from https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6078209#post6078209

Vexara
Mentat Assassins
#405 - 2015-10-06 11:00:11 UTC
I am happy to design a system for you CCP, I estimate about a weeks worth of work to create an initial draft document.

Please let me know if you are interested we can work out the details the effort comes with 26 years of professional game design experience and 11 years of playing Eve.

I would really love to see Eve back on track and fun again, please contact me via eve mail and we can exchange details.

-Vex
Dograzor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#406 - 2015-10-06 14:11:52 UTC
Vexara wrote:
I am happy to design a system for you CCP, I estimate about a weeks worth of work to create an initial draft document.

Please let me know if you are interested we can work out the details the effort comes with 26 years of professional game design experience and 11 years of playing Eve.

I would really love to see Eve back on track and fun again, please contact me via eve mail and we can exchange details.

-Vex


He is seriously not kidding.
Aivlis Eldelbar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#407 - 2015-10-06 14:45:34 UTC
Vexara wrote:
I am happy to design a system for you CCP, I estimate about a weeks worth of work to create an initial draft document.

Please let me know if you are interested we can work out the details the effort comes with 26 years of professional game design experience and 11 years of playing Eve.

I would really love to see Eve back on track and fun again, please contact me via eve mail and we can exchange details.

-Vex


26 years... are you Derek Smart? Lol
Vexara
Mentat Assassins
#408 - 2015-10-06 19:55:02 UTC
Aivlis Eldelbar wrote:
Vexara wrote:
I am happy to design a system for you CCP, I estimate about a weeks worth of work to create an initial draft document.

Please let me know if you are interested we can work out the details the effort comes with 26 years of professional game design experience and 11 years of playing Eve.

I would really love to see Eve back on track and fun again, please contact me via eve mail and we can exchange details.

-Vex


26 years... are you Derek Smart? Lol


No, sorry don't know him. I know other game developers play Eve we have a guy trained in Animation, Motion capture in CEI getting his masters degree.

Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#409 - 2015-10-07 12:52:37 UTC
Alliance headed out on a deployment.

Not a single carrier move op.

5-6 trips in subcaps.

Thanks jump fatigue.

Not today spaghetti.

Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#410 - 2015-10-09 06:08:33 UTC
Alliance Jumpbridges should not accrue fatigue at the same rate as other jump devices.

Setting up and keeping such infrastructure running is decidedly 'non-trivial', by removing or reducing fatigue from bridges, you actually start to give people a 'reason' to own space.

Perhaps you may also wish to prevent Jump capable capital ships from using jump bridges (so Freighters can still use them, but Supercarriers can't).

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#411 - 2015-10-10 02:50:09 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Alliance headed out on a deployment.

Not a single carrier move op.

5-6 trips in subcaps.

Thanks jump fatigue.

And nobody thought,"It might take a while to make some loaded carriers, but you know what, let's take even longer moving ships individually."

Sounds like a case of un applied intelligence to me.
Mr Twinkie
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#412 - 2015-10-11 23:43:17 UTC
Remove fatigue from Jump Freighters... having it literally adds nothing to the game. It makes sense for damage dealing caps but for freighters and even the rorq it's just dumb.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#413 - 2015-10-14 18:50:55 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Alliance headed out on a deployment.

Not a single carrier move op.

5-6 trips in subcaps.

Thanks jump fatigue.

And nobody thought,"It might take a while to make some loaded carriers, but you know what, let's take even longer moving ships individually."

Sounds like a case of un applied intelligence to me.


After 5-6 trips, it's probably just as fast if you use gate with your carrier and dodge the fatigue bullet. It's a move ops so you have support anyway no?
Vexara
Mentat Assassins
#414 - 2015-10-15 07:37:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Vexara
An arbitrary rule that prevents players from doing normal actions they have relied on for years is a fundamental flaw in the current system.

As a game designer rules should prevent exploiting the game or giving an unfair advantage but at the core all rules should be created with a vision to encourage players to play the game.

A rule that encourages the opposite result in this case log off and wait to be able to take actions after days or weeks is a very poor rule to put in place.

Jr designers make this common mistake they create a rule thinking that it is a one way street for players to force them in a desired direction. Humans will always test all directions and attempt to break all rules, if faced with a choice of taking a risk or avoiding risk most will choose to avoid risk unless they feel reward is greater then the risk.

If you are auditing the design ask the questions that the above force upon you.

The data that you have collected over the past few months should prove my above statements false or true, if they are true they should inspire the right questions to be asked during the audit.

Hope this helps, and good luck!
Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON.
Goonswarm Federation
#415 - 2015-10-15 16:40:49 UTC
Remove the fatigue and give back the old jumprange or even further..
make the map unfair again e.g. moon minerals are not available every.

Life is not fair - stop making eve my little frig cruiser farm...


Just to add up - that jumping should be always much faster than using gates:

If I've to take a flight e.g. jumping for some 11000km it only takes me 22h incl. fatigue e.g. waiting at the airports etc. ( in EVE it was recapping at a midpoint ( or now a really short fatigue timer ( like 30 Seconds or so ) - if that would exist )

But If I take the car and could even drive like 100km/h it would take me 4.58 days driving non stop - but thats not possible - there is a much greater fatigue as well - refueling the car. get rest etc. so it would take a month or even more to travel this by car. ( and maybe a bridge or highway needs to be avoided ( in EVE gatecamps ) the route gets longer and takes much longer.

Another example, my business trip next week. About 1000km. It only takes me by car->plane->railroad 5h. By car it would take about 9h.

The flight here is about one a a half hour with switching planes. So the longest part is getting to the airport and away.
Think about this in EVE as getting undocked, do a few jump to the jumpbridge/titan/BO, get on the next one and use it again and than take some more gates. The jump should be the this way. not the way it is today.

Posting this example as in iceland it might be close to the same time flying and driving. Stop that island thinking. Come to the continents and figure out how wrong you are.

I think it should be every time faster traveling a longer distance by "flying" e.g. jumping.
This game plays light years in the feature.. and going all the route should be faster, if you have those things like jumping?

Faithfully



Monasucks Tumblr

Twitter

"A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead."

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#416 - 2015-10-15 17:13:02 UTC
Vexara wrote:
An arbitrary rule that prevents players from doing normal actions they have relied on for years is a fundamental flaw in the current system.
\


No, the flaw is in how people got used to be able to do whatever they wanted with no limitation at all and now can't deal with a system that put limitation on what they do. There should of been limitation from day 1 and this is where the whole issue was. It took years of cap proliferation to show it was broken but that does not mean it was not broken.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#417 - 2015-10-15 22:50:10 UTC
Teebeutel wrote:
As to the issue brought up with encouraging local production by reducing jump freighter jump range, wouldn't an easier and far more palatable way to encourage production be to increase their jump fuel consumption drastically to make it far easier to turn a profit from producing when competing against people importing from Jita?

Due to the limitation of regions, a lot of T2 production is done in high-sec.

Most of the size of materials (moon goo) required to produce a product is greater than the M3 of the finished product, so its atypically cheaper to ship the T2 product to null than to ship the materials to build it there.

Null markets are still limited to what can get shipped in. and prices have gone up as a catalyst in local markets.
So, i'm sure all the fatigue did is reinforce the use of high-sec markets.

So, now that it takes longer and is more costlier to jump freight to null, it might be worth while to look at the size of material for T2 production to make it smaller sized M3 than the finished product to promote production out in null.
Mr Twinkie
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#418 - 2015-10-16 01:46:33 UTC
There's negligible amount of build where you fly going on. Almost 95% of null market is shipped in from high sec. Building isn't fun so punishing jump freighter pilots with a dumb fatigue mechanic is counter intuitive to keeping nullsec a worthwhile place to be.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#419 - 2015-10-17 02:25:12 UTC
Overall fatigue and jump range have done 5 times as much damage as good. Overall the entire thing is terrible.

Same thing goes for wormholes and the GCC ship boarding changes that are on sisi atm (unannounced, and i bet it wont be in patchnotes either).

It's all a bunch of fun/hour timers that prevent you from enjoying this game.

People got dropped on a lot.
Sure, but that didn't change at all.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Vexara
Mentat Assassins
#420 - 2015-10-17 06:23:47 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Vexara wrote:
An arbitrary rule that prevents players from doing normal actions they have relied on for years is a fundamental flaw in the current system.
\


No, the flaw is in how people got used to be able to do whatever they wanted with no limitation at all and now can't deal with a system that put limitation on what they do. There should of been limitation from day 1 and this is where the whole issue was. It took years of cap proliferation to show it was broken but that does not mean it was not broken.


Sorry I don't agree, all I can tell you is that it's very hard to put magic into a game by magic I mean a mix of ideas that form a product that people fall in love with. Tampering with design threads that are core to player interaction is very dangerous to do if you don't fully understand all the implications of making an adjustment.

Setting up metrics for the players reaction would be step one of this process these metrics should form questions that can be fed into a database and this database can be formulation of simulated version of an idea going live.

If an idea proves to be good enough it still needs to be tested on players in a test environment if this is successful, it is deployed, along with a backup plan if the change is not going in the direction desired.

My professional design instincts which have been tested for over 26 years building games are something I rely on but even with all my experience I still get caught up on ideas that sound good to me. I usually build them with my own hands then play them myself, only then can I judge them after that, peers exposed, finally after many adjustments I might be ready to ask for resources to be given to make it a final part of a game.

I am really good at this trust me it is my gift, I was born a game designer.