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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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Author
Captain Awkward
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#381 - 2015-09-22 10:07:08 UTC
Persephone IX wrote:
Reduce jump fatigue for Regional jumps. Or alternatively you could allow Capitals to reach anywhere within the same Region but still accumulate jump fatigue per LY. You could bring back the old 13ly per carrier (or other max range), but only within the Region. Any jump above 5ly incurs an extra penalty.

5 ly is a bit restrictive, you should be able to reach anywhere within the same region (bonus to regional use). Changing Region and you will have the said 5ly restriction (or some other restrictive penalty, maybe double fatigue, due to regional jet lag :P). The point of fatigue was to restrict Capitals jumping around with impunity, and give them a more regional use.


That would mean that a major alliance only needs a single staging system withing a region to hotdrop everything within that region. If they use a border system to a other reagion, they only need to take a single gate to hotdrop everything within that neighbour region too.

I see so many suggestions here that would bring back "suddenly supercaps" power projection of old.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#382 - 2015-09-22 11:38:22 UTC
Captain Awkward wrote:
Persephone IX wrote:
Reduce jump fatigue for Regional jumps. Or alternatively you could allow Capitals to reach anywhere within the same Region but still accumulate jump fatigue per LY. You could bring back the old 13ly per carrier (or other max range), but only within the Region. Any jump above 5ly incurs an extra penalty.

5 ly is a bit restrictive, you should be able to reach anywhere within the same region (bonus to regional use). Changing Region and you will have the said 5ly restriction (or some other restrictive penalty, maybe double fatigue, due to regional jet lag :P). The point of fatigue was to restrict Capitals jumping around with impunity, and give them a more regional use.


That would mean that a major alliance only needs a single staging system withing a region to hotdrop everything within that region. If they use a border system to a other reagion, they only need to take a single gate to hotdrop everything within that neighbour region too.

I see so many suggestions here that would bring back "suddenly supercaps" power projection of old.


Completely agree. The current range for Capital ships is sufficient.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#383 - 2015-09-22 14:09:21 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Captain Awkward wrote:
Persephone IX wrote:
Reduce jump fatigue for Regional jumps. Or alternatively you could allow Capitals to reach anywhere within the same Region but still accumulate jump fatigue per LY. You could bring back the old 13ly per carrier (or other max range), but only within the Region. Any jump above 5ly incurs an extra penalty.

5 ly is a bit restrictive, you should be able to reach anywhere within the same region (bonus to regional use). Changing Region and you will have the said 5ly restriction (or some other restrictive penalty, maybe double fatigue, due to regional jet lag :P). The point of fatigue was to restrict Capitals jumping around with impunity, and give them a more regional use.


That would mean that a major alliance only needs a single staging system withing a region to hotdrop everything within that region. If they use a border system to a other reagion, they only need to take a single gate to hotdrop everything within that neighbour region too.

I see so many suggestions here that would bring back "suddenly supercaps" power projection of old.


Completely agree. The current range for Capital ships is sufficient.

I saw the case for upping the range while the higher jump fatigue cap was in effect. Sure, you could jump further, but you couldn't do it as often due to the crippling jump fatigue. But with the new five day cap I think current ranges will be fine.

5 LY range + 30 day max fatigue = bad balance.

5 LY range + 5 day max fatigue = good balance.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#384 - 2015-09-24 16:36:45 UTC
Jump bridges still worthless.

Not today spaghetti.

Seth Quantix
Anime Masters
#385 - 2015-09-25 15:53:25 UTC

I'm a capital ship pilot. That's rather common. I dreamed of it since I got in the game; hell, titans brought me into eve.
Yet, now that I fly them, I just try to avoid it. Because It's not funny. And it doesn't make me feel like playing a game. More like having the worst day of my life everytime I need to move one.

Exemple : BL died. RIP. Had to leave; joined a friend corp. Now problems began : I needed to move a Blop and a Dread.
Well I'm probably gonna end up selling that dread. Why ? Because I have 12 jumps to make with it. All around the 4,8 ly mark. That means 12 HOURS of travel, if I wait for JF to wear off. If I don't, well, I'll stack just under a week of fatigue. NOT awesome.

I'm fairly sure I'm not pointing out some new issue. Everyone have to move caps someday, and it's pure boring everytime.

another exemple : Black Ops drop. It's fun. At least for the gankers; or at least it was. Now it means you have 35 minutes to wait wherever you landed before getting back home. Or you'll stack 2 hours of blue fatigue.

The list goes on and on.
I get the whole "small alliances involved in small fights dont want huge super fleet to drop onto them" point. I just don't agree to it.
EVE is a game about being unfair, mean, harsh on everyone who's not your friend. Some alliances EXIST only to wreck other people; that's their only purpose and nothing else. And that's okay; because EVE is not a game about not tempering with what other people want; It's about flatten the tires of everyone else to finish first. And if that's not enough, blow up the other's cars.

Fatigue comes on top of cyno issues, depleting cap on jump, and every other jump mechanisms. And it's too much.
Capitals ships main strength is the ability to jump; and they can't use it.

If we really need to nerf that ability, increase the fuel costs of jumping; increase requirements on cynosural generators; even increase maintenance cost on cyno arrays.

I had a good feeling earlier, reading Dev Blog about Battlecruisers balance. Not much nerfing here, and that's great. EVE can use more of really strong features and ships. And we need more of it. I'm pleased I'll be able to say "FC can I bring my Drake" more often now.

When I think of EVE, I just wanna think of my fleet going from POS to POS across the galaxy; of epic fights, and even bigger fleets who just travelled the whole galaxy to come fight with me.
But right now ? I guess I'll just go back to my 10 jumps.
Persephone IX
Doomheim
#386 - 2015-09-25 17:57:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Persephone IX
Captain Awkward wrote:
Persephone IX wrote:
Reduce jump fatigue for Regional jumps. Or alternatively you could allow Capitals to reach anywhere within the same Region but still accumulate jump fatigue per LY. You could bring back the old 13ly per carrier (or other max range), but only within the Region. Any jump above 5ly incurs an extra penalty.

5 ly is a bit restrictive, you should be able to reach anywhere within the same region (bonus to regional use). Changing Region and you will have the said 5ly restriction (or some other restrictive penalty, maybe double fatigue, due to regional jet lag :P). The point of fatigue was to restrict Capitals jumping around with impunity, and give them a more regional use.


That would mean that a major alliance only needs a single staging system withing a region to hotdrop everything within that region. If they use a border system to a other reagion, they only need to take a single gate to hotdrop everything within that neighbour region too.

I see so many suggestions here that would bring back "suddenly supercaps" power projection of old.



Jump fatigue was introduced to curb power projection AND make use of capitals more Regional.

Hotdrop everything within a region is a bit broad. Yes, they will be able to reach and touch enemy fleets within their region, but will accumulate enormous fatigue . And that will restrict reusability of the cap fleet.

As for the second argument, all it takes is 1 jump to hd another region, but accumulated fatigue will disallow them to jump quickly back in case they need to defend their home region, while jumping gates means they can be bubbled to hell , effectively stalling them long enough(for null sec). Unfortunately, that doesnt apply to lowsec supers, and they are plentiful. Supers jumping gates was a bit courageous.

With the 5 day cap, 5 ly is ok, i would just like to see carriers, not supers, getting a little jump range help if possible.

Im not saying you are wrong, im just trying to find a good compromise, since smaller entities use carriers for logistic purposes .

CCP, Can I Haz My Stuff?

MrQuisno
Doomheim
#387 - 2015-09-25 19:07:41 UTC  |  Edited by: MrQuisno
Jump bridges take time to set up with sov. They should reduce the jump timers by 50%. Let you go 10 light years for them. Again you can't use capital in them so it's time they be worth while having them.

Titan bridge timers need to be reduce by 50% on the timers. They are built for attacking and defending the space were you live.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#388 - 2015-09-26 02:51:00 UTC
I don't think the bridges need any special timer reductions. They need more versatility. Like having multiple exits or being able to bridge to cyno generators. I know I would especially use the one in my home system more often if it wasn't static to a system I rarely need to get to (this is the opposite issue for some other members of my alliance).

would like to see more of an actual network rather than the current separate connections.
Nicodymus
Vector Galactic
#389 - 2015-09-28 17:02:13 UTC
My vote's with increase LY, if need be then even only to supers, or let them dock, passed that I don't care. but its a sad game mechanic that they are being killed by. easy bottle necks and precognitive probes that allow ships to reach their desto prior to the super coming out of warp.

Making it so that once again only big groups with massive numbers that can have large escort fleets can have the biggest toys in the game.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#390 - 2015-09-28 18:13:07 UTC
Mind if I ask what precognitive probing is? I'm sure I have an idea from the name, but I've never heard that before.
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#391 - 2015-09-29 14:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Alidiana
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

Thanks for those that attended the Q&A session today, we appreciate those who took the time. We'd like to use this thread as a method of discussing Jump Fatigue ideas.

Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
  • Altering jump ranges
  • Altering jump fatigue curves
  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
  • What does local-content mean to you?


We'd also love to hear your ideas, post away space friends.

Metrics Pron


Personal opinions. I don't know what exactly were your initial intentions, so am judging on my understanding:
1) they may be a way to solve some issues, but in general I don't feel well about getting THAT little, and equal on all ships.
2) rediculous as they are... I'm definitely after it. Some hard cap or possibly decrease in its growth at certain level? Idk, just not as it is. I don't even think fatugue itself is a good way to solve the travel problems, but I may be wrong.
3) Pointless, IMO.
4) Sounds good. My suggestion is to allow warp drives to increase their speed and switching to some kind of constant capacitor drain after exiting the star systems, and thus enabling interstellar travel. Gravity wells should interfere with it, right?
5) That might work. Mostly because of the end of answer 2
6) Would never hurt if not done terribly wrong
7) In a limited way, maybe. Landing with (partly) drained cap and decreased systems effectiveness? I don't like the idea, buuut well this might work better than it is now.
8) Sounds good, but with decreased cooldown
9) Interesting concept. Mostly unsure because of the end of answer 2.
10) Even though question isn't really clear.... Local content is something I usually avoid. Things that pin me to a place and prevent from going wherever I want, whenever I want. A reason that pushed me out of nullsec in its time, even though I sometimes miss it, and despite available space back then being quite large (maybe not various enough?) and easily-covered through bridges, allowing to switch from one context to another. I still hate restrictions that the word "local" puts on me.

P. S. Yes, everyone can throw the fact I'm not direclty connected to the topic in my face, but I am trained for use of jump-capable ships (some of them) and am only a few hundred million isk away from being able to fly (not really effectively) the majority of them. So I watch the topic, just in case it becomes worth attention. Watch it carefully... Including other players' opinions.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#392 - 2015-09-29 14:22:36 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Mind if I ask what precognitive probing is? I'm sure I have an idea from the name, but I've never heard that before.


Best guess is scanning a cap/super while it's still "in warp" at a speed of like 200 m/s because the deceleration out of "warping" mode is so long you can probe it, warp to it and bubble it before it's gone.
Djiana Lenar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#393 - 2015-09-30 05:34:58 UTC
A skill for jump fatigue cooldown plz
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#394 - 2015-09-30 05:42:28 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Mind if I ask what precognitive probing is? I'm sure I have an idea from the name, but I've never heard that before.


Best guess is scanning a cap/super while it's still "in warp" at a speed of like 200 m/s because the deceleration out of "warping" mode is so long you can probe it, warp to it and bubble it before it's gone.

I figured as much. I never have really figured out how probe results work on a moving object. I always that it just picked the location at the end of the cycle, but the precognitive scanning would imply otherwise.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#395 - 2015-09-30 07:59:35 UTC
Djiana Lenar wrote:
A skill for jump fatigue cooldown plz


We do not need any more mandatory skills for jump drive capable pilots. Not to mention that CCP's implementation of this would be to increase jump fatigue first, then have it so the skill at Level IV put you in the same boat you are in now, and really only helped you at Level V, which they would make a 30+ train.

Remove head from sphincter. Then post.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Zockhandra
Lethal Injection Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#396 - 2015-09-30 12:46:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Zockhandra
Personally i feel like the Black Ops battleships Fatigue timer could do with being a little shorter, Considering it cannot carry ships or large amounts of cargo, and is too squishy to participate in large fleet fights. It does feel like Roaming blackops are somewhat held back.

I'd propose that the time is changed so that, pilots who actually wait out fatigue (such as myself) are rewarded by being patient and are able to jump more frequently, compared to a player who just waits out the orange timer (sorry i've forgotten the name). This way people who are rushing towards a potentially large fight have to suffer a longer fatigue. Whilst people who are taking their time to wait out fatigue can actually travel in an effective way instead of spending 4 hours getting out of one hostile branch of territory especially since... er hem someone nerfed the wormhole connections to nullsec...

(Which begs a side question, why wasnt the allowable mass of a wormhole connection to nullsec just reduced?)

I think the idea behind power projection changes was good, sadly i don't think enough time was taken to consider the consequences. for examble a capital fleet previously may have travelled alot, but now the changes encourge capitals pilots to stay docked until something big actually goes along with the new changes and uses a stargate. So those thousands of capitals around EVE are:

-A Sat doing nothing and collecting dust
-B Only being deployed within their home system



To summarise:

-I think it is unfair that Blackops battleships (and only battleships) are less effective at jumping that industrials, and suffer from (what i believe) is a time that is just a bit too long)

-Perhaps a module that reduces the Stress of jumping could be used but at the penalty being that whilst equipped the ship has a maximum lock target of 0 (i dont know something that prevent carriers and above from abusing it unless planning ahead)

Shield are red, Armor is too, i slapped my heavy neut, all over you. Fingers crossed, broken shattered and burned, across from the bubble and into your hull.

ying tsui
Sun-Tzu Art of War
#397 - 2015-10-01 12:45:07 UTC
Well CPP says this is a sand box MMO and you pay 15$ a month to play it. Yet they limit you from exploring this sand box. They are always changing the basic rule of the game and limit you. I love this game but it seems they want it to fail. Guess i will check No Man's sky when it comes out , due to the fact they make stupid decisions and really don't know what they are doing!!!
Dani Lizardov
BRUTAL GENESIS
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#398 - 2015-10-01 14:20:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dani Lizardov
1. Remove that JOKE called CSM.

2. Jump Fatigue is just Fine the way it is.

3. Jump Bridges need no reduction of Fatigue but even more NERF:
- 1x JB per constellation per alliance
- Only Corp / Alliance use of the module allowed, or if you can not get in the shield of the pos, you are not allowed to use the module.

120 hours rule makes the Fatigue system pointless.
120 hours reactivation timer limit I can understand.

PS....
GO read the 1st post again, find the links at the end and the graph showing Capitails are much more used atm.
Then think again, do you really want them back?
Cardcaptor Sakura
Weave
#399 - 2015-10-01 15:04:23 UTC
1. Remove jump fatigue completely from everything that is not capital or super capital. Allowed to jump 3 times at max range per day.

2. Capitals and super capitals can only jump 1 or 2 tines per day.

Very simple. Just set standardized limitations on number of jumps allowed.
No need for complicated fatigue mechanic.
SpaceSaft
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#400 - 2015-10-02 13:50:37 UTC  |  Edited by: SpaceSaft
I don't have or own a jump capable ship so take that as a disclaimer. I think the phoebe changes were good in general.

I see lots of posts discussing turning knobs and tweaking numbers. I don't really like that, I feel that is thinking too much inside the box.

I'd love to see more creativity in changing maybe how jumping is done in general, also maybe with new structures in mind.

Concerning jumping itself:

How about a spool up time, caps and destination cyno can be detected remotely with the right equipment. The amount of spool time reduces fatigue or increases range, but obviously the spool time also makes you a target. Risk <-> Reward. If you want to jump immediately, you can but you get no bonus. If you have safe home space, you profit from it in terms of quality of life, if you don't, well there is your content righ there.

Concerning logistics:

As someone who's slipped into nullsec market and industry stuff, I have to say that the nullsec industry situation is messed up.

Yes I import - but mostly T2 components, because even those that could be made locally aren't sold locally, the lack of market orders is a prime suspect I think. People don't want to train market orders for weeks when they can just sell immediately (in jita) with the minimum skills.

Yes I export - but only because I have the same problem in reverse too: I simply don't have the market order slots to buy and sell to the degree that the market could be considered healthy.

Just two examples, so if you want to change nullsec markets, don't try to do it with jump freighter numbers. Increasing fuel consumption would make things more expensive but it would not improve the market situation, because that depends more on other factors than jump mechanics.