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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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Author
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#341 - 2015-09-03 08:19:00 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
As long as the drug is expensive enough and has serious enough side effects so it isn't popped like Skittles, I can see that working just fine.


I'm not sure that's actually possible to balance it via cost.

More guaranteed hideous side effects which can't be removed is probably better, but then the pilot is crippled. It's not an easy fix.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#342 - 2015-09-03 08:29:21 UTC
lord xavier wrote:
But when something is 7 jumps away and I cant reach it because of the amazing large 5-10ly big black holes in space, it gets silly. (I also cant cyno to some systems that are next door because they are 5.01-6.67 LY away even though I can gate jump)

Light years are light years, they are absolute; it's the arbitrary gate connections that make your perception of them seem ridiculous. There are several instances where you can cover dozens of light years with a very low number of gate jumps just because there are very long range border or region, in some instances even constellation gates. Take K-IYNW for instance, the the Mivora constellation or the area around Hakonen (cross system from Vale of the Silent/The Forge to Lonetrek/Tribute), among many others. Lightyears are fine, its the gate connections that make light years appear borked.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Edriahn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#343 - 2015-09-03 09:01:23 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

Thanks for those that attended the Q&A session today, we appreciate those who took the time. We'd like to use this thread as a method of discussing Jump Fatigue ideas.

Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
  • Altering jump ranges
  • Altering jump fatigue curves
  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
  • What does local-content mean to you?


We'd also love to hear your ideas, post away space friends.

Metrics Pron


Hey space friend. Let me tell ya a story.

I came back to the game 5 days ago after about 3 years of vacation(oh boy, it was good), to find out my favorite game had became a turn-based strategy from 2002. I quickly reconnected with my old connections from the BG corps, PL, NC, etc and after catching up with most of the new changes, I was quite disappointed.

Sov has been overhauled - again unsuccessfully(what's that, sov mechanics Mk11 now?), normal battleships are handicapped, so people only fly 3-4 faction hulls, capitals are useless. You want us to fight for sov, which is extremely hard to hold onto, while you handicap the means we have of doing so.

I wasn't expecting big progress, EVE is not that kind of a game, but I was still surprised to see it has regressed so much.

  • Altering jump ranges -
  • What's the point of having short range AND fatigue? If countering power projection is your goal, focus on one of the two. Carriers have a lot more functions - from blitz-moving to save a super in danger, to moving your ships, stuff, etc. Now they are worth just for blob-defense of your home systems.
  • Altering jump fatigue curves -
  • a fatigue cap would be nice for sure. While capital power-projection might be quite frustrating sometimes, it is part of the game, same as in the real world.
  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based -
  • please don't, I don't want to buy 10 more carriers and move em around.
  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?) -
  • normal speed, Warp, micro-jump, microwarp drives, afterburners stargates, jump-bridges, jump, jump portals. I'd rather have less but better designed propulsion methods, than 100 useless ways of travel.
  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue) -
  • fix sov first, so people would actually want it.
  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection -
  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement -
  • oh, please don't. Just think it through...
  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0) -
  • it would be better than nothing. I still think either fatigue, or these ridiculously small range need to go. One of the two would be enough to counter power-projections if implemented properly.
  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs) -
  • it would be better than nothing. I still think either fatigue, or these ridiculously small range need to go. One of the two would be enough to counter power-projections if implemented properly.
  • What does local-content mean to you?


In general, most of these changes screw the little guys. Big alliances that can afford to buy countless caps, alts supercaps and so on will always find ways to circumvent balance changes they don't like.

[20:46:05] Komahal > pl is cancer

suid0
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#344 - 2015-09-03 13:01:00 UTC
a good start would be revert the jump range nerf

the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones  - Commander Ted

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#345 - 2015-09-04 01:09:01 UTC
Jump bridges could definitely use some expanded use. Not necessarily fatigue or range changes, but more destination options or more connections wouldn't hurt too much. Give them a greater tactical use for the owners.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#346 - 2015-09-04 16:32:32 UTC
Please add a way to view jump fatigue timers via the API. I would love to be able to look at my Evemon and know whether or not it is time to log back in that character.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#347 - 2015-09-04 19:00:41 UTC
Some interesting ideas have been presented in this thread some going along similar lines to the sov clearing fatigue idea.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=444067&find=unread

The jump endurance idea is very interesting.

Serotta wrote:

Jump Endurance
Opposite of jump fatigue, accumulates when pilots have no jump fatigue. A pilot will get max endurance after 24 hours of no jump fatigue. A pilot will get a jump fatigue reduction on their next jump that is proportionate to their jump endurance. So a pilot with max endurance will effectively get one jump of no fatigue. Additionally there could be a skill to speed up you jump endurance accumulation like exists with jump clones.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#348 - 2015-09-04 20:55:22 UTC
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
Some interesting ideas have been presented in this thread some going along similar lines to the sov clearing fatigue idea.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=444067&find=unread

The jump endurance idea is very interesting.

Serotta wrote:

Jump Endurance
Opposite of jump fatigue, accumulates when pilots have no jump fatigue. A pilot will get max endurance after 24 hours of no jump fatigue. A pilot will get a jump fatigue reduction on their next jump that is proportionate to their jump endurance. So a pilot with max endurance will effectively get one jump of no fatigue. Additionally there could be a skill to speed up you jump endurance accumulation like exists with jump clones.


So now I need to train a few more accounts just so I always have a couple with max jump endurance on standby?

Desmont McCallock
#349 - 2015-09-04 21:58:06 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Please add a way to view jump fatigue timers via the API. I would love to be able to look at my Evemon and know whether or not it is time to log back in that character.
It's already in the CharacterSheet API since fatigue was introduced. We at EVEMon just don't have the time to add that info. If anyone has the time and will to contribute it, be our guest.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#350 - 2015-09-05 02:01:31 UTC
Desmont McCallock wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Please add a way to view jump fatigue timers via the API. I would love to be able to look at my Evemon and know whether or not it is time to log back in that character.
It's already in the CharacterSheet API since fatigue was introduced. We at EVEMon just don't have the time to add that info. If anyone has the time and will to contribute it, be our guest.


Good to know. Thank you for the information.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#351 - 2015-09-10 14:02:44 UTC
First, I will say that I like the effects that Jump Fatigue had on Eve as a whole. It made it feel big again. It made regions feel more isolated. I got to use my own Capital and Supercapital ships more often - without fear that everyone in Eve would come join the pig pile.

With that said, having done a lot of jumping over the course of the past couple of weeks (more on that later), I would just say that the multiplier for subsequent jumps is just too high. We currently have an all or nothing system. You either wait for the timer to tick completely down to 10 minutes each time, or you don't jump. Even jumping a couple of minutes early really starts to have a disproprortionate impact on your jumping ability. It scales too sharply. It's not that it can go up to thirty days, it's that the penalty for the second "early" jump is insanely high.

This is well illustrated by using the Jump Fatigue Calculator - http://fatigue.nakamura-labs.com/. I have been using this excellent tool a lot lately. A big "Thank you!" to the designer. In terms of saving my sanity, it has been better than Prozac. Plan a few jumps where you have to jump "just a few minutes earlier than ideal" and you will quickly see the jump fatigue spiral out of control.
Put simply, if you can schedule your life around Eve and find a way to jump approximately every forty to fifty minutes, then Jump Fatigue is not too big a hassle. If, on the other hand, your life cannot revolve around Eve, you have a problem. To illustrate, I will discuss my recent experiences with Jump Fatigue.

Assume that you are moving a great distance, because you just got computer access after being deployed for several months, and you come back to find that all your friends have moved from Fountain to Vale of the Silent. At this point you have a few options:

1. The typical option: Cry helplessly to yourself, then come on the forums to complain about Jump Fatigue.

2. The BL option: Insure all your ships and self destruct them.

3. The throwaway option: Open up http://evemaps.dotlan.net/ and start planning how you are going to accomplish this new challenge.

I went with Option 3. The next post will be a modified version of the log I kept in my corporation's forum.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#352 - 2015-09-10 14:05:41 UTC
The first step in any decent planning process is problem framing. What was the problem? In short, how do I move twelve Carriers, eight Dreadnoughts, one Rorqual, and one Jump Freighter from A-1CON to G5ED-Y, without going completely insane and/or quitting Eve?

What assets did I have available? Six accounts total.

Capital Account 1 - all Carriers, Dreadnoughts, Rorqual, Anshar (and a cyno alt on his account)
Capital Account 2 - all Carriers, Dreadnoughts, Anshar (and a cyno alt on his account)
Capital Account 3 - all Carriers, Dreadnoughts, Anshar (and a cyno alt on his account)
Jump Freighter Alt - Anshar (and a cyno alt on his account)
Scanning Alt 1 - Loki (and a cyno alt on his account)
Scanning Alt 2 - Loki (and a cyno alt on his account)

I picked out a relatively safe route to get myself out of Fountain (which is not the easiest thing to accomplish with Black Legion occupying the best system for getting out of there).

Day 1 - I spend most of my play time getting my cyno chain for my Jump Freighter into place. Per my plan, this will actually be one of the last ships I move.

Day 2 - I scan for WH's and find one from 1-5 into Tribute. I suicide cyno into 1-5 with three Archons, jump through. Awesome TGRADS help me move to the next few jumps down to G5ED. Clearly this is the preferred method of travel.

Day 3 - I jump clone back to Fountain and spend all day scanning. No wormholes I can use, but do find a 10/10. So, I run that. 300m ISK drop.

Day 4 - I find a great WH from YZ- to Low Sec (Miroona). YZ- is a ghost town when I find it. Unfortunately, I have to go to a promotion ceremony, a meeting, and dinner. When I get back, YZ- is busy. I jump three Naglfars from a now-hostile station into the NPC station in YZ-, then undock to go for the wormhole. A Phobos camps me into the station for a long time. I go AFK, go back to the office, check my e-mail, have a snack, then come back. Still camped. I try again. Then chat with the camper for a while. He tries to set a trap for me, but I see through it. I log for the night. I'll get my Dreadnoughts out of there another day.

Day 5 - Since scanning and waiting for another WH does not seem like a viable option, I decide to execute my jump route (18 jumps). A friend helps me get my three Naglfars to the first jump. I suck up the jump fatigue and jump to my second jump as soon as I can - I want to put as much distance as possible between myself and YZ-. I get 2.5 hours jump fatigue. Which is fine, because I do have to go to work. So, I log off and go to work. I come back during my lunch break. Upon my return, I discover that someone has moved into my formerly deserted midpoint system. Still, after researching the killboard, they appear to be renters, not fighters. I make it through. After a couple of more jumps, I am into Syndicate and can now go station to station the rest of the way. I go as far as I can, before being stopped by an Incursion, 12/18 jumps in my planned route.

Day 6 - I relatively rapidly and painlessly moved three Archons 12/18 jumps, before being stopped by the same Incursion. The one scare was a bad bounce off a station, which sent me 40 kilometers off the station before I could dock. I was able to bounce to a planet and dock up, but it was nerve-wrenching for a couple of minutes. Then I jump-cloned over to Jita, grabbed a trio of my new favorite ship (a Claw), and flew 34 jumps back to Fountain in about 17 minutes.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#353 - 2015-09-10 14:06:59 UTC
Day 7 - I log in earlier than normal, hoping to get in a jump before I go to the gym. Unfortunately, Shp3 and his merry miscreants from Fountain Core are logged in. So, I log out and go to the gym. After the gym, and after a nice long chat with my beloved wife, I log back in. Fountain Core appears to be sleeping. So, I begin moving again. This time, I have three Nidhoggurs. I move them, without incident, to Low Security space.

Along the way, I see something "interesting." A Vexor warps in while I am waiting for a cynosural field to go down. My first thought is, "Oh, he's going to gank my cyno ship." Then I look at his security status - 5.0. Not so worried now. A 5.0 is unlikely to kill my rookie ship on a station in Low Sec. Then I watch him burn up above the station. He lights a cyno! In a Vexor! I comment on this in local. He does not respond. Instead, he brings in an Archon and a Thanotos. Then undocks them to guard his cyno Vexor! It's times like this that I wish I was moving three Dreadnoughts, or had my Avatar handy.

As EUTZ starts to get going, I have reached my 12th jump for the day. I am tired and liable to make mistakes, so I decide to stop moving closer and get set for tomorrow's events. Once I take my Interceptor ride back to Fountain, I get everything ready to begin another trip. At this point, I have the time to probably get another three ships out of Fountain, but with the increase in activity and my lack of energy, that is a recipe for disaster. So, after positioning my next three cyno characters, I log off.
A few hours later, with some dinner in my belly, and no more meetings to attend, I begin again. I get three Revelations out of Fountain, despite suffering a nearly fatal socket error just as I try to jump. Several more station-to-station jumps before I can go back for another load of ships.

Day 8 - It is with great pleasure that I announce that all 22 of my Capital ships are out of Fountain! Now, some are not all that far out of Fountain, but they are nonetheless out of that region. I still have a ways to go before I can relax. At any moment, I know that I am just a bad bounce away from disaster. I also would like to mention the critical importance of pre-flight checks. Today, just as I was about to jump out three more Carriers, I decided to check the fit one last time. Sure enough, I had a cyno fitted instead of a cloak. This would have been disastrous! As it was, I was able to quickly refit and safely exit the region.

Day 9 - Thus far, and knock on wood that it stays that way, this has been an uneventful day. I moved my Rorqual and two Moros's from Syndicate to The Forge. Then found a medium wormhole in Fountain and moved two Loki's into Vale. Then moved back to my midpoint to move some more ships. With any luck, I'll get my three Revelations to my new Low Security staging system before I go to bed this evening.

Day 10 - I have spent the day managing Jump Fatigue timers - bouncing back and forth between work and my computer (it's easy when your office is 200m from your living area). At the end of the day, I had every ship where it needed to be - most of them in a Low Sec station, the rest in Vale.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#354 - 2015-09-10 14:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
So, what did I learn from all that? Well, that Jump Fatigue sucks! You knew that already! But, with proper planning and patience, you can overcome it (like so many things in Eve).

Due to my careful management, the longest Jump Fatigue timer I got was about 3.5 hours (at the end of the night just before going to bed anyway). So, all the horror stories about "I came back to the game and got 30 days Jump Fatigue trying to move" are really just the result of impatience and poor planning.

What would I change? I would add a drug that lowers your jump fatigue timer by a set number of minutes each time you take it - but you can only take one at a time (as with every other booster).

Synth - 3 minutes
Standard - 20 minutes
Improved - 25 minutes
Strong - 30 minutes

As with the other boosters, they would have some drawbacks in the case of side effects. Probably to capacitor amount/recharge, armor amount, shield amount, armor repair, shield repair, resistances, etc.

Thus, if I jumped 5LY, then popped Strong Jump Fatigue Reduction Powder, I would go from a 60 minute fatigue timer to a 30-minute timer. After waiting twenty minutes, I would be back down to 10 minutes. I could then jump again with no huge penalty. And so on and so forth.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#355 - 2015-09-10 14:34:47 UTC
There's a chrome plugin to add fatigue to dotlan route planner. I use that instead of a separate site.
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#356 - 2015-09-10 15:35:23 UTC
Echoing sentiments that the scaling is way too sharp with the nerfed jump range.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#357 - 2015-09-10 17:36:36 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Thus, if I jumped 5LY, then popped Strong Jump Fatigue Reduction Powder, I would go from a 60 minute fatigue timer to a 30-minute timer. After waiting twenty minutes, I would be back down to 10 minutes. I could then jump again with no huge penalty. And so on and so forth.

And it has a duration of 2 hours or more. So, that you get 2 jumps in shorter succession, but not more. If such a booster became a thing, this thing should not be made to make long distance travels shorter, it should be targeted to make jumps around your home area take less time or alleviate the effects of rapid response fleet jump travels without waiting out your fatigue. By no means, it should be possible to sniff that powder every 30 minutes or 1 hour to shorten your long distance travels significantly.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#358 - 2015-09-10 19:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Rivr Luzade wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Thus, if I jumped 5LY, then popped Strong Jump Fatigue Reduction Powder, I would go from a 60 minute fatigue timer to a 30-minute timer. After waiting twenty minutes, I would be back down to 10 minutes. I could then jump again with no huge penalty. And so on and so forth.

And it has a duration of 2 hours or more. So, that you get 2 jumps in shorter succession, but not more. If such a booster became a thing, this thing should not be made to make long distance travels shorter, it should be targeted to make jumps around your home area take less time or alleviate the effects of rapid response fleet jump travels without waiting out your fatigue. By no means, it should be possible to sniff that powder every 30 minutes or 1 hour to shorten your long distance travels significantly.


This is an important point. I meant to write more about this above. Normally, training Biology to Level V is a good thing for boosters, since it gives you a 100% bonus to duration. If the Jump Fatigue Reduction Powder worked like a normal booster, this would actually be counterproductive to train Biology V. So, I would set the base duration for the drug at two hours. Then, make it so that Biology reduced its duration by 20% per level. Thus, you would be able to use Jump Fatigue Reduction Powder once per hour with Biology trained to Level V.

As it currently stands, you can jump once per hour without any issues. So, if the Strong version of the drug is going to be worth having, it should significantly increase how often you can jump. In this case, taking the Strong version would effectively enable you to jump twice in one hour.

So long as the price for the booster is sufficiently meaningful, and it has sufficient side-effects, being able to effectively jump twice per hour instead of once per hour makes sense to me. The other side of the Phoebe rebalancing is still in place - with the 5LY cap.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#359 - 2015-09-10 20:24:18 UTC
Thank you FT Diomedes for an excellent summary of a post-Phoebe cap ship move. I had a similar experience, although much smaller scale both in distance and number of ships, and also found that with patience and planning, the move wasn't too bad.

Having said that, I still feel that the cap on jump fatigue is excessive. I like the way it scales up currently in order to discourage multiple rapid jumps, but being in a situation where you are unable to jump for more than a week seems detrimental to overall gameplay.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#360 - 2015-09-10 20:52:16 UTC
Limit hot drop capabilities from enemies in a sov space system.

Within one's own sov-spave relax the jump fatigue and range limitation.


There you go CCP, 2 cool new modules for alliances to grind to build and maintain for their new sov space, which people are still trying to figure out, why should we have it?....

Been around since the beginning.