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Should the Tengu be nerfed?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#101 - 2015-08-10 11:41:36 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
How does that make any sense? Why would you have flown a 425 rail mega in fleet for years if the Tengu and any Med rail ship was superior? You just anecdotally proved yourself wrong.

You should look up the concept of “baltecfleet”. It's called that for a reason…

Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Actually you are a moron. At the same range a 425 on a mega does .022 and a 250 on a Tengu does .026

Actually, you are a moron who doesn't understand the tracking formula or what the numbers mean. For one, range does not affect the turret's tracking capability. More importantly, though, there is this teeeeensy little thing called signature resolution that has to be taken into account and used to normalise the numbers if you want to compare different size turrets in terms of tracking ability. Just looking at the tracking speed does not actually tell you how well a turret tracks its target. So…

Akirei Scytale wrote:
Go plug them in. Compare the fits. The differences between a tracking-bonused ship with mids free for comps that uses large rails and a totally unbonused ship dedicating every mid to its buffer that uses mediums is not as large as you'd think.
Ok, let's do that.

Mega w/ 425mm II and all-V: 0.01010625 +25% (Motion Prediction V) +37.5% (Gal. Battleship V) → 0.01737 rad/s @ 400m sigres, or 43 µrad/sm.
Railgu w/ 250mm II and all-V: 0.0205 +25% (Motion Prediction V) → 0.025625 rad/s @ 125m sigres, or 205 µrad/sm.

Look at that. Almost 5× the tracking on the unbonused medium rails. Who'd'a thunk it. And no, a couple of stacking-penalised TCs will not make up for that difference. It's only +64% for two of them or, if you completely shitfit, +92% for three. You'd need something on the order of +350% for them to be even in the same ballpark.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#102 - 2015-08-10 12:13:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
Tippia wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
How does that make any sense? Why would you have flown a 425 rail mega in fleet for years if the Tengu and any Med rail ship was superior? You just anecdotally proved yourself wrong.

You should look up the concept of “baltecfleet”. It's called that for a reason…

Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Actually you are a moron. At the same range a 425 on a mega does .022 and a 250 on a Tengu does .026

Actually, you are a moron who doesn't understand the tracking formula or what the numbers mean. For one, range does not affect the turret's tracking capability. More importantly, though, there is this teeeeensy little thing called signature resolution that has to be taken into account and used to normalise the numbers if you want to compare different size turrets in terms of tracking ability. Just looking at the tracking speed does not actually tell you how well a turret tracks its target. So…

Akirei Scytale wrote:
Go plug them in. Compare the fits. The differences between a tracking-bonused ship with mids free for comps that uses large rails and a totally unbonused ship dedicating every mid to its buffer that uses mediums is not as large as you'd think.
Ok, let's do that.

Mega w/ 425mm II and all-V: 0.01010625 +25% (Motion Prediction V) +37.5% (Gal. Battleship V) → 0.01737 rad/s @ 400m sigres, or 43 µrad/sm.
Railgu w/ 250mm II and all-V: 0.0205 +25% (Motion Prediction V) → 0.025625 rad/s @ 125m sigres, or 205 µrad/sm.

Look at that. Almost 5× the tracking on the unbonused medium rails. Who'd'a thunk it. And no, a couple of stacking-penalised TCs will not make up for that difference. It's only +64% for two of them or, if you completely shitfit, +92% for three. You'd need something on the order of +350% for them to be even in the same ballpark.



Look, I know you love doing this to threads. But what the hell do you mean Range has nothing to do with this? The premise of Baltec's statement was T3 is better than all the other cruiser, BC and BS hulls. Range is certainly a benchmark for measuring "better".

Also range when talking about rails is a perfectly good judgement and consideration. The point was, a Mega has the utility slots to fit TC, it can also jump into Jav quicker because of it's range.

Regardless, I believe Malcanis and others have already pointed out a half dozen examples of where T2 ships shine over a specialized T3 fit. But continue thinking this is about spreadsheets and your opinion when it was about pointing out the blatantly obvious nonsense of the "T3s are better than everything".

Also, what you posted above isn't even the change to hit formula at all... Chance to Hit This is. The importance of Sig Res of the weapon is highly dependent on what you are shooting, then halved at the end of the calculation. Falloff and Optimal have a much greater effect in that calculation.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#103 - 2015-08-10 12:26:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Look, I know you love doing this to threads. But what the hell do you mean Range has nothing to do with this?
I mean that range does not affect the turret's tracking capability. Plain and simple, just like I wrote. It's simply not a factor.

Quote:
The point was, a Mega has the utility slots to fit TC, it can also jump into Jav quicker because of it's range.
…and no amount of TCs will make up for the almost 5× difference in tracking the two turrets have.

Quote:
Also, what you posted above isn't even the change to hit formula at all...
…since it's already a part of the hit formula. That's why you have to normalise using sigres if you want to compare turrets. The importance of sigres is constant, since the sigres itself is constant. It is also not halved at any point. A target's sigrad will affect how difficult it is to hit, yes, but that doesn't change anything about the turret — the tracking formula is still essentially just a ratio between target difficulty and turret capability, and mucking around with the target affects all turrets equally.

A target that is twice as hard for one turret to track will be twice as hard for all turrets to track. A target that is half as hard to track for one turret is half as hard to track for all turrets. This is because the target does not affect the capabilities of the turrets in question.

If you want me to go through the tracking formula for you, then I can do that, but trust me on this: it'll just be a long journey to arrive back at the same point, where I'm still right about all of this.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#104 - 2015-08-10 14:22:15 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


Oh rubbish, a Cerberus fleet will trivially out-range and out-speed Tengus, especially if they have that "battleship tank".


Firstly shield tanks don't slow you down and secondly, locking range of both the tengu and the cerb have a 1km difference.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#105 - 2015-08-10 14:32:39 UTC
Henzo Enecha wrote:
Should the Tengu be nerfed?.
Stop being a shippist! All the other T3s need nerfs and tweaks also.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Druisilla
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2015-08-10 15:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Druisilla
Not trying hard enough

http://i.imgur.com/XUx4Wrt.jpg

18,233 DPS OMNI Tank, Cap Stable

Does it need nerfing? No cos this is a ******** fit that no one would ever use.
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#107 - 2015-08-10 17:34:59 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Seraph Essael wrote:
Leave the Tengu the **** alone...Oops

Anyone else read this in their head using the voice of the "leave brittney alone" kid?


Anyone else pretty sure that kid is an Eve FC?
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2015-08-10 17:44:18 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Henzo Enecha wrote:
So I heard one day, that Tengus are quite effective in doing stuff. So I went ahead and made myself a few fits in EFT's latest version.

Before I go into any detail of the fits mentioned above, I should say, that a Tengu is capable of facetanking a 10/10 DED Complex with a fit, that has lesser stats.
AND, if you want to do something else with it, just bring a mobile depot with you to refit into other specializations, ex. Covert ops nullified low/null explo, or general traveling.


The fit I used, Is not (too) very expensive, sure it has it's 'pimp' parts, but the price is well under a billion.


The fit has 3780dps tank against Guristas Pirates, with a Pith X-Type Large SB
696dps with a range of 30.4km with Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II's
It moves 633m/s with 10mn T2 Afterburner on
On top of all that, it is cap stable at 40%!
And the full thing costs only 700mil in Jita 4-4!

Note: Omni tank with 300mil invuls (Gistum B) 1946dps tank remaining cap stable is possible, but very expensive.
Other option are Domination Adaptive Invuls, which are only 70mil a piece, yielding 1273 dps tank against omni damage.


Now this all brings the question, why? Why is this kind of thing even possible? Why should this even exist? Can any other Strategic cruiser (or any subcap ship) pull these numbers?

Don't believe me? Look at this, and try it out yourself if you'd like:
EFT Screencapture of the fit with all skills level V


Now ofcourse this is purely on paper, due to my current set of skills I would be able to fly it in around 3 months forward from this date, yet it is unbelievable that it can pull those numbers, even on paper.

Why would you even fly any other ship when you can get a Tengu? Or should this be nerfed, which would possibly create more diversity in usage of ships?

I would like ask CCP, how the f*ck can a cruiser pull a 3,7k dps tank, facetank 10/10 DED sites, and be balanced, or is it balanced after all?

//If this is in the wrong subforum, feel free to move it.


I said it multiple times.
There is no need for a nerf of T3s but they definitly need to be more expensive again.


ISK cost is a ****** way of balancing anything.

Overall, I think T3s need to be taken down a notch to below or maybe on par with T2 cruisers in terms of performance.

What was the question? Should the Tengu be nerfed? Hrm, no, I don't think so. It's better at PvE than all the other ships but that is mostly because PvE is dumb and NPCs are dumb.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#109 - 2015-08-10 18:35:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Has anyone seen the nullification rig idea before? I can't find any results with google. I think it's a good idea, which would leave T3s as high EHP lesser T2s, if T2 can have nullification too. Might break up the Pete thing, with Eagles possibly happening as a result.

Drawback to the rig is you're down one rig slot. Perhaps less agility. An agility drawback would prevent the uncatchable interceptor issue from being shared with too many ships besides Covert Ops and frigates, and I don't think frigate nullification is a bad thing in terms of combat ability.

No more nullification period, thank you.
We already have too much.

Being down one rig slot isn't even a drawback to speak of when you get something like what you are suggesting.

I understand. This is just a thought exercise in what would make not-T3s more appealing.

Can you explain the reasons you think there is too much nullification? Specific examples why, like people will use everything to travel, maybe. I'm curious because I'd like to have a discussion about it.

Nullification makes T3s appealing enough to use over their T2 counterparts that hit harder. If you proliferate nullification, the T3s' advantage is reduced to being able to switch subsystems on the fly, and EHP.

Couple considerations for the nullification rig I've come up with since my last post:

Not allowed on T3s - you'd be adding another effective subsystem
Not allowed on bombers - bombs are broken and should go away
Not allowed on frigates?

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#110 - 2015-08-10 18:43:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
So the OP made a ship which already has extreme native resist against a single NPC type, and based his conclusion as to whether the ship is balanced as a whole upon that one specific scenario. Not too smart.

The conclusion you should have made is that the Tengu is good versus its native enemy; gurista pirates, but only if it gimps its fit in all other scenarios.

Tech 3 cruisers are in a pretty good position at the moment in terms of balance. With all the recent buffs to many of the hulls T3s aren't the holy grail that they used to be. They are very good in specific pve scenarios that they have a native advantage for, and caldari generally make very good pve ships due to the innate advantages of missiles and shield in PvE; so nothing new there.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#111 - 2015-08-10 19:05:38 UTC
Druisilla wrote:
Not trying hard enough

http://i.imgur.com/XUx4Wrt.jpg

18,233 DPS OMNI Tank, Cap Stable

Pff. Get on my level, scrub.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#112 - 2015-08-10 19:32:31 UTC
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#113 - 2015-08-10 20:02:52 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
But the kinetic resist hole

Only scrubs worry about kinetic resits holes!




Or something… I'unno.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#114 - 2015-08-10 20:43:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


The only t2 ships that are not out classed by t3 is the HIC and that only because t3 can't fit the bubble launcher/infinipoint.



Mate, put the Buckfast down.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#115 - 2015-08-10 20:52:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:


I said it multiple times.
There is no need fpr a nerf of T3s but they definitly need to be moar expensive again.


Price is never an obstacle.

Lol

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#116 - 2015-08-10 20:55:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
How about some real "tryhard" shield boosting setup?
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2015-08-10 21:03:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Gallowmere Rorschach
Malcanis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


The only t2 ships that are not out classed by t3 is the HIC and that only because t3 can't fit the bubble launcher/infinipoint.



Mate, put the Buckfast down.

Even against Recons, he has half of a point, at least insofar as the Proteus and Loki are concerned. Versus their Recon counterparts, those two T3s handily outdo their Recon brethren when used in any kind of armor fleet.

Granted, their range isn't as heavily bonused, but my fleet point Proteus can pull well over 400k EHP, can move at almost 1300 m/s, has the benefit of a covert cloak, can point to right about 60 km, it's completely cap stable (and I fit NOS on mine to latch onto something nearby in case I start getting neuted out) and that's before any kind of overheat.

Tell me that **** is balanced compared to what the Arazu (or even the Lachesis) can do with an armor tank, and I'll call you insane. The Recons can't even pull a quarter of that off. They do get an extra 20km point range to make up for their paper thin tank though, so I guess there's that.

The Loki vs. Huginn/Rapier is in a pretty damned similar position for webbing.

EDIT: after playing with EFT a bit more, turns out the Loki can pretty handily outdo it's Recon counterpart with both armor and shield, so let's call it 66% of a point. Shield Proteus can be pulled off in a way making it better than the Lach/Arazu too, but it's hilariously expensive, and just no.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#118 - 2015-08-10 21:35:15 UTC
Use ancillary boosters and you might have a decent entosis platform, while isolated from remote assistance.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#119 - 2015-08-10 21:41:46 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Mate, put the Buckfast down.
Please stop using words I end up having to Google so I can understand your post. But now that I did, I'm wondering if I can get a bottle of it over here in the colonies.

Mr Epeen Cool
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#120 - 2015-08-10 21:47:33 UTC
It sounds like something you would hear as a saying like put down the bucky

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)