EVE General Discussion

Bitter vets are also leaving. The uncertainty over capitals, the balance mistakes with larger fleets and general apathy are all contributing factors.

Bitter vet here born in May 2003.

TLDR most of this. feels like the same old same old why are Eve Online numbers falling thread.

What makes me bitter is the choices people make involving me, I'm not bitter about the actual game because it is a platform.

Let's see, I've been stolen from, ganked, ridiculed, manipulated, betrayed, misunderstood. Notice a trend here?

It is important to consider where your bitterness comes from, analyse situations and make good decisions. I'm tempted to just play the game solo and have limited involvement with anyone but that would be silly, this is a social game where teamwork can achieve amazing things.

12 years is a long time to be playing the same computer game, one does have to be careful not to get too stressed with Eve.

To all the bitter vets out there I salute you for playing for so long. Please know that you have a friend right here, I'd be happy to play the game with you and rain down some bitter vet PVP on all these young know it alls.

Good luck bitter vets, relax, take plenty of breaks from Eve every few hours, go for a jog, get your blood circulation going and have a clear vision to what you're trying to achieve within Eve.

I maintain an occasional sub to post on the forums, but I don't need to be able to log in to the game to ruin your game anymore.

…cont…

The first trend is that everything is new in the beginning. The universe is vast and full of incomprehensible stuff, but as understanding and familiarity grows, all those unfamiliar and strange pieces and places become every-day tools and same:y arenas as more and more of the inherent competition of the game becomes clear to the player. The second tend is the oft-observed phenomenon that those who can create social connections early on tend to stick around for a lot longer, but the social groups — indeed, the need for a specific group constellation — will mutate over time. Once the initial social connection has been made, the individual player might need larger and larger groups, or smaller and smaller, or just essentially go back to solo play with some casual acquaintances to chat with every now and then. The third trend is that, while everyone starts as a capsuleer in EVE, with time they can start building their own environment. Be it the virtual bureaucracies of large alliances or the intricate supply changes of a self-sufficient industry, or just the reputation for being the reliable logi-guy in the incursion fleet, everyone starts to build something that is individual and not just part of the shared fantasy world. At the extreme end, the EVE executable isn’t even relevant to playing this part of the game.

Thus the problem is this: what if you don’t want the aesthetics to change? If you enjoy the transition from one to the other and each step on the way, all is fine, but what if that’s not the case? What if you prefer the starting point, but not what it evolves into? What if you want the end part, but are bored to tears by the road leading there?

The Dicovery-Competition part is probably the most obvious example. On the one hand, we have the new players who feel that they can’t compete, who are then inevitably inundated by protestations from older players who explain why this is not the case — something they’ve discovered along the way, which is how they have been able to transition over to the competitive phase. On the other hand, we have the old players who have run out of things to really discover and who have grown bored; the fun part was figuring things out, but the competition and the advantages that this knowledge is supposed to unlock was never all that interesting. Some can overcome this boredom by taking the voyage that the MDA Framework suggests: by no longer caring about the aesthetics, as such, but rather about the underlying dynamics and mechanics, and treating them as a puzzle to be solved. The whole concept of the Goon “cabals” and similar theory-crafters, as well as the patch speculation and preparation that these groups generate are an example of this. For them, the Discovery lies not in the gameplay, but in analysing mechanical changes to predict the new dynamics these will generate.


So how do you retain players? In a sense, you give them what they want. This does not mean the content they’re asking for (and definitely not the toys and boosts and benefits they keep suggesting), but rather the aesthetics that keep them playing. Unfortunately, there are some pretty hard limits to what can actually be offered. Discovery will come to an end unless the player transcends into the meta-game analysis, which may not even be applicable to their preferred activity. There’s only so much you can know about Gurista NPC entities. Competition is very hard to get a grip on without a significant chunk of foreknowledge and practical experience (although Fellowship will offer a suitable substitute early on, if the player manages to get on that particular train). Fantasy ends somewhere around when the sandbox reveals itself; when the universe as it presents itself is no longer good enough for what the player wants to experience, and they have to start creating their own content.

The question, then, is this: how do you prolong discovery? Just adding more systems (as in gameplay types, not star systems) is costly and runs the risk of creating crippling over-complexity. How do you expedite competition? Since this is a player learning process, the standard “moar SP” answer misses the mark completely — rather, it is an issue of making the actual learning (and particularly the unavoidable, repeated failure) fun. Similarly, how do you prolong the fantasy? Especially if you at the same time want to expedite the expression that come out of ignoring and rising above the same fantasy? It’s easy to just offer the standard platitudes of “more RP events” and/or “more player tools” — it’s hard to actually pin down what is needed in practice.

Vets are not always Bitter Vets.
Why are we specifically caring about keeping people who have turned bitter and only look for the bad side of things?
Rather than regular Vets who still look at the good side as well?

I thought about this problem for a very long time , been playing for 8 years with a couple of years break in between.
Taking the time and reading your argument I can fully agree, I feel as if it has all been done before and the all round feeling that EVE got easier over the years, which took the challenge of figuring things out away.

Also spot on with the social aspect , that's the real reason I keep poking my head back in.

Very nice summary !

I actually think we have a solution to this. Our corporation is offering vocational training for new players and those vets who want to perhaps learn something else. After a 3 month training program (currently being offered at only the corporate tax rate), we send candidates off to the corporation they want to join (if they have taken the applicable classes and passed).

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This gives help to the newbies trying to tackle the learning curve in a lighter environment than Eve University (whom we love). At the same time, it can give new heat to the blood of an old vet wanting something different or new. And we cater to all types from carebears to pirates, high sec to low sec.

Oh what the hell why not.

Top thing, Devs who ACTUALLY played the game. That would be ******* awesome thanks.

Oh and removing the posting rights of any account under 60 days except in their own Noob Zone on the forums would be good.