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CCP/CSM Round Table: Jump Fatigue

First post
Author
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#101 - 2015-08-06 21:10:27 UTC
Belinda HwaFang wrote:
Q: When Phoebe changes were originally unveiled, all ships were being reduced to 5LY (except Black Ops) range. After the epic threadnaught from JF pilots I believe CCP Fozzie said that he would temporarily be giving JF's 10LY while they sort other aspects of the new EVE, e.g. things like material availability in different regions.


  1. Where are we on this Roadmap?

  2. If the plan is to now keep JF's at 10LY, will you reconsider the Rorqual's position since it is an industrial ship with only 5LY range?


--
Fang


The Rorqual was given the 5LY range because of fears that the Drone Damage Bonus would make the a rorqual a gank machine and the whole process of limiting power projection would be de-railed.

So since we are playing Parliamentary Procedure I guess the question would be...

Is the Rorqual's Drone Damage bonus still considered too strong to allow the Rorqual to have a 10ly Range?
Would you need to remove the Drone Damage Bonus in order to give the Rorqual a 10ly range?

Of course this lacks the context of talking about what emergent roles the Rorqual has lost due to being kneecapped at 5ly. So the discussion ends up focusing around the Drone Damage Bonus instead of how the ship is actually used and how that has been negatively effected.
Belinda HwaFang
Iris Kinetics - Aquisitions
#102 - 2015-08-06 21:25:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Belinda HwaFang
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
[

Would you need to remove the Drone Damage Bonus in order to give the Rorqual a 10ly range?


Remove the drone damage bonus, this has been said by others many times.

Also stop rage nerfing its functions (Clone Vat bay recently nerfed with anyone making jump clones anywhere).

Why not give us a Rorqual rebalance as you kept promising us. My questions still remain valid. I'd like to hear about the Roadmap and where we are on it.

--
Fang
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#103 - 2015-08-06 21:32:01 UTC
Belinda HwaFang wrote:
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
[

Would you need to remove the Drone Damage Bonus in order to give the Rorqual a 10ly range?


Remove the drone damage bonus, this has been said by others many times.

Also stop rage nerfing its functions (Clone Vat bay recently nerfed with anyone making jump clones anywhere).

Why not give us a Rorqual rebalance as you kept promising us. My questions still remain valid. I'd like to hear about the Roadmap and where we are on it.

--
Fang


If I had to guess, the rorqual revolves around the new structures. They won't announce anything until determinations are made regarding moon mining arrays. All from what I get is NDA. Maybe a year basically.

Yaay!!!!

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#104 - 2015-08-06 21:42:28 UTC
Q: Is there anything being planned to make capitals more mobile, placing their threat range somewhere reasonable between local and global?



Supplemental

So we went from massive capital fleets being omni-present everywhere within 15 minutes, to capital usage and movement being extremely localized. Dropping capitals in certain areas is currently hilariously safe because there are no other capital forces within 10 LY that can actually punish such vulgar displays of power, which should not be the case. Obviously having the dreaded 15 minutes till PL arrives was also not good; we need a happy medium. Instead of stasis caused by everyone is everywhere all the time, we have stasis because everyone is nowhere all the time. It's hilarious that people are better off literally self destructing and re-buying capitals than trying to move them. It's also hilarious that, since there is no threat of a capital escalation, ratting carriers are essentially untouchable barring gross human error and negligence.

There is a goldilocks zone of capital mobility. We are not in it. Too far, to fast, and capital usage becomes impossible outside of the biggest coalitions. Too small, and you get capitals being worthless, or too difficult to punish. Increasing all ranges by a small margin would probably be a good thing, and tweaking fatigue numbers to be slightly lower.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

drunklies
Imperial Guardians
Tactical Narcotics Team
#105 - 2015-08-06 23:23:07 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
twit brent wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
twit brent wrote:
The game Is more balanced now, but the price of that balance is just ridiculous. The pace of this game was slow enough before the changes but now i find myself playing other games while waiting for timers to count down.


My question:

CCP...can you come up with a way to increase the imagination of players so they can discover ways to play the game other than sitting in capital ships waiting for a timer?

As a suggestion for an answer I would propose you introduce the following into the game:

every other kind of ship

Thanks.


Maybe you can use your imagination and figure out that different people like different aspects of the game. Maybe if you used your imagination you could try and contribute instead of shitposting.


If you actually enjoyed different aspects of the game you wouldn't spend your time sitting in a ship, waiting out a timer, complaining about your single-minded gameplay being hampered, and then not even playing the game as a result. That attitude is the exact cancer to EVE that these changes were designed to destroy. Working as intended.



Different people enjoying different aspects does not indicate that those different people enjoy multiple aspects, only that those aspects are different.

For example, I enjoy capitals and battleships. Both have been **** on repeatedly by CCP, but only caps and bridges apply to this thread. Goon's weaponised tedium, but CCP are trying to make a game based on it.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#106 - 2015-08-06 23:48:39 UTC
with grinding taken away from eve... what are you plans for supercarriers?

would you consider making supercarriers motherships again?

make them ships that give a boost to range and a reduction to jump fatige and stuff.

would you also consider turning fighterbombers into a capital senties?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Warmeister
Tactically Challenged
The Initiative.
#107 - 2015-08-07 00:04:14 UTC
Now that fozzisov is around, can we get rid of fatigue completely?
Bailian Moxtain
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#108 - 2015-08-07 00:19:38 UTC
Can you boost all ranges to 10+ pls and make this game enjoyable again?
Saria Dehmov
SuckerPunch Inc.
Valkyrie Alliance
#109 - 2015-08-07 00:36:27 UTC
Q: What do you think about removing titan bridging completely in combination with making carriers / super carriers literal "carriers" and forcing pilots with their ships to board them in order to be jumped to a fight in a destination system? It seems like it would put capitals on field and give them a real role again.

P.S. Recommend 7-9 LY for Dreads / Supers and 9-12 LY for carriers regardless. LOVE the current fatigue system. It has given us back In general though, the ranges are slightly too short and some of the choke-points are currently extremely difficult to navigate.
Cor'len
Doomheim
#110 - 2015-08-07 00:52:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Cor'len
Since ~questions~:

Have you considered the fact that a large number of alliance logistics (JF) pilots will ragequit if you drop the JF range even more, and the effect this will have on the average small alliance in deep null?
Xavier Azabu
Half Empty
#111 - 2015-08-07 01:18:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Xavier Azabu
Vic Jefferson wrote:

So we went from massive capital fleets being omni-present everywhere within 15 minutes, to capital usage and movement being extremely localized. Dropping capitals in certain areas is currently hilariously safe because there are no other capital forces within 10 LY that can actually punish such vulgar displays of power, which should not be the case. Obviously having the dreaded 15 minutes till PL arrives was also not good; we need a happy medium.


I prefer the way that it is now. If it was any different, small alliances would be completely afraid to use dreads or supers again. That was not good. In order to protect their dreads and supers, everyone got into shaky blue status with groups like NC. or the old CFC.

The only changes that I would prefer with jump fatigue are changes to covert ops bridges. Blops are too risky to use now and take too much time. Blops used to bring a whole lot more content. I feel like Blops are the unfortunate bystander victim of the Phoebe jump fatigue changes.

Otherwise the only thing that I can think of is reducing the fatigue for Dreads and Carriers but keeping it about the same for Titans or Supercarriers. The new range limits are great though.
Siaka Stevens
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2015-08-07 01:21:47 UTC
Is there any way to eliminate chokepoints that must exist? It makes owning supercapitals really difficult.
twit brent
Never Not AFK
#113 - 2015-08-07 04:25:23 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
twit brent wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
twit brent wrote:
The game Is more balanced now, but the price of that balance is just ridiculous. The pace of this game was slow enough before the changes but now i find myself playing other games while waiting for timers to count down.


My question:

CCP...can you come up with a way to increase the imagination of players so they can discover ways to play the game other than sitting in capital ships waiting for a timer?

As a suggestion for an answer I would propose you introduce the following into the game:

every other kind of ship

Thanks.


Maybe you can use your imagination and figure out that different people like different aspects of the game. Maybe if you used your imagination you could try and contribute instead of shitposting.


If you actually enjoyed different aspects of the game you wouldn't spend your time sitting in a ship, waiting out a timer, complaining about your single-minded gameplay being hampered, and then not even playing the game as a result. That attitude is the exact cancer to EVE that these changes were designed to destroy. Working as intended.


Making a game play aspect boring and time consuming in order to balance it is a terrible game design choice no matter how you look at it.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#114 - 2015-08-07 06:30:05 UTC
Why is CCP tending to 'balance by tedium' lately? Ie jump fatigue and fleet warp especially.

Did CCP consider nerfing the Power of blobs instead of the Projection?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#115 - 2015-08-07 09:12:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
A set of kinda-linked questions:

Is Jump Fatigue a needed evil because of the current state of capitals, or is it felt to be needed even if Capital fleets weren't in the state they currently are? Could a heavy rebalance to the nature of Capitals see Jump Fatigue removed, or are all future thoughts for Capitals being supported on an assumption Jump Fatigue will remain in place in perpetuity?

Is any full Capital rebalance dependant/reliant on the complete roll-out of the new structure system?

Is it in our interest to support as early-as-possible removal/replacement of POSes in order to get capitals rebalanced?

Rationale: It has kinda been my opinion that the problem with Caps/Supers is they are balanced around the ability/necessity to damage/repair high-hp structures. This means they need massive dps, which means they have to have even more massive ehp to survive the dps of their own class. With the introduction of entosis-sov, this fundamental underlying requirement is going away, and once POS are fully replaced and removed, there will be no need for this massive structure-grind dps. How this relates to Jump Fatigue, is that it only seems needed due to the massive blocks of high-dps invincibility that full cap-fleets currently represent, if that could change (and I personally believe once POS are gone, it can), it doesn't seem so mandatory anymore.
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2015-08-07 09:18:49 UTC
I really like the geography Phoebe has created. It has even helped break up the giant coalitions. All of this is good. I see people complain about logistics, but remember logistics is directly related to power projection. Do we really want to shift things back towards this? Ugh
3Better
You're dunked
White Sky.
#117 - 2015-08-07 11:57:47 UTC
Phoebe's jump mechanic changes is the best thing what happened with lowsec in the last years. These changes greatly increased the number of small capital fights occuring in the regions with low security. Everyone who live in these regions and have jump-capable ship can now use it without constant threat of nullsec blobbers coming after big ships in next 10 minutes.

As for nullsec, people who live there are now feel completely safe and they use capitals in any way that you can think of and they dont even have to think about consequences of camping gates with titans and so on. Nullsec dwellers from the fartherst corners of the galaxy simply cannot lose a capital fight unless there is a sovwar. There is no way to bring capital reinforcements to tenal\CE\Paragon soul\omist\most of deklein and many other regions unless you live around (claim holder).

Wouldn't it be any better if nullsec had a 50(75,100)% jump range bonus for all capitals? That could do good for both - claim holders and those who want to fight with them.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#118 - 2015-08-07 12:05:18 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Did CCP consider nerfing the Power of blobs instead of the Projection?

How does one nerf the power of blobs without it being extremely arbitrary?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#119 - 2015-08-07 12:32:15 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Did CCP consider nerfing the Power of blobs instead of the Projection?

How does one nerf the power of blobs without it being extremely arbitrary?



Blobs are powerful when no one can reasonably assemble a like force, if you could assemble a force that rivals the blob, then you can fight. Right now in order to fight a Gate camp with titans and SC, it would take 2 weeks to move to a system close enough to make it in one jump.

Gate camps typically don't last 2 weeks, or if they move gates, it takes another 2 weeks to move in range of that.....

Igor Nappi
Doomheim
#120 - 2015-08-07 13:21:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Igor Nappi
So will this be Council of Nullblob Management whining until CCP caves in and reverts the jumps changes? Are the days of cap blobs travelling across the map in 5 minutes back soon?

Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game.