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CCP/CSM Round Table: Jump Fatigue

First post
Author
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#201 - 2015-08-12 15:35:23 UTC
Usually the Sounding Board is recorded on TS, then hosted on Soundcloud or a direct download service.

If it's being streamed on Twitch, hopefully that means the stream will be saved and we can just reference that.
Hobbitude
Maple Moose
#202 - 2015-08-12 17:00:01 UTC
I unfortunately missed this but I sure hope we address a few things. A lot of people seem to want to tackle all the problems now but until some missing pieces are implemented, it is difficult to know for sure how it is best to address.

This new system granted it needs adjustment (insert interesting content here) is forcing entities to live in a smaller footprint. That is fine in principle. That said, from a transportation standpoint, jump bridges usage went from crazy high to probably 5-10% of what it was (I am being generous). I would heavily reduce fatigue similar to a JF or remove it entirely. If a large entity owns 1 constellation, who cares if that JB network makes it easy to travel in it?? Its a substantial quality of life improvement for resident while having little to no impact on force projection.

For capitals, I would either look at reduced fatigue (say 20% less) or same fatigue with increased range (say +2LY). Something not too drastic so CCP can evaluate the impact and adjust if needed. They keep flashing that increased iteration speed as an advantage. Capitals/force projection is important enough to try and find a better situation without reverting back completely (or maintaining current status quo).

Once capitals are rebalanced and we have the structures, then we can have a good idea of what additional changes could be needed.
Baki Yuku
Doomheim
#203 - 2015-08-12 17:03:22 UTC
Hello, Baki Yuku of Black Legion rental overlord and fc thereof. I have a question for CCP regarding the jump-changes where CCP repeatedly stated moving should not be easy which just seems a bit silly to me because CCP’s version of “difficult” seems to be more time consuming and tedious instead of actual difficulty in any meaning full way. Why is it that a game should be “difficult” which in CCP words means time consuming to the point where it feels like having a second job? Should game not first and foremost be about fun? Spending 6-10 hours on a move op is not fun. Being more or less forced to destroy or entire dreadnought fleet in Venal and having to rebuild them in lowsec because it is economically sound and for the sake of our member’s sanity to do so is not fun either. You might say well you had the choice between moving them or insuring them and blowing them up to rebuild them in lowsec but it really was not a choice. It was a “forced” choice so to speak. It allowed us to preserve the sanity of our members at the expanse of my own.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#204 - 2015-08-12 17:53:15 UTC
As I see it as I listen to the round table.

Home field advantage should have massive reduced Jump Fatigue when using JB no matter the ship.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Xenuria
#205 - 2015-08-12 17:53:24 UTC
[17:47:46] EVE System > Xenuria was muted by corbexx
Effective until: 2015.08.12 18:17
Reason: "shoes"

I didn't even ask about shoes. Clearly the CSM needs reform to prevent this sort of abuse and over zealous moderation. My voice matters just as much as anybody elses. I didn't even ask about shoes, I didn't ask about anything. I pointed out that the stream was down.

REFORM THE CSM
Lord Longus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#206 - 2015-08-12 18:07:10 UTC
if there's still a possibility to ask a question:

Is it possible to generate jumpfatigue only when doing a regional jump e.g. from Metropolis -> The Forge but jumpes within the same region do not generate fatigue or it gets a bonus of e.g. 50% less fatigue?

In my opinion that would still make it hard to move across multiple regions but makes it possible to move faster within the same region and therefore make it easier to generate local (3 regions according to CCP Larrikin) content
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#207 - 2015-08-12 19:22:06 UTC
USS YORKTOWN wrote:
Given the developement of various space chokepoints as a result of the reduced number of viable transit paths through low is there any thought to adjusting range to increase potential paths?

As is we have places like Aradia making the life of a super pilot one of waiting, boredom, and debating suicide.



instead of thinking its a game mechanic issue why dont you think about restricting the amount of api data available or data full stop. its crazy that you can go on the map for instance and see every cyno lit in the entire universe, or see all pod kills, or see npc kills. In reality you would never know this information. Just keep api data to pure stats not player stats, its silly that all this info is available.

There is far too much intel available.

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit

PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#208 - 2015-08-12 19:25:08 UTC
http://www.netsky.org/CCPJFRT.zip

RAW, UnCut, Full Length.
CCP/CSM Round Table: Jump Fatigue 2 hours 2 minutes.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2015-08-12 20:53:48 UTC
https://soundcloud.com/mike-azariah/jump

done and yes I know that the voice over is distracting, I honestly do not hear it anymore unless it is pointed out. It was just background noise for me.

I will do better next time (if there is a next time)

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Pah Cova
Made in Portugal S.A.
#210 - 2015-08-12 21:06:34 UTC
Well it seems that CCP havent answered any question in particular and limit their answers to evasive manouvers.

The point is not only the the jump fatigue for itself but the limited LY that capitals can jump.
I can understand their concerns, however something should be done regardind for those who only wish to move assets to or from null sec/low sec/high sec, and that part as not been looked as it should.

Mobility from and to null sec are needed in order to people can move their things, If there is no mobility and the risk are too high, of course nobody will move anything and null sec will be empty in a short matter of time ( it is now in fact).

Null sec markets never worked as intended, but theres one part of null where null sec market works but that comes with a cost where only a few have become rich(trilionaires) and the others must do what they are told.

One of the problems are most of the people dont care about pvp, i can understand them and I can undurstand those who really want to make pvp, but the reallity in eve is other, everytime some group tries to make some pvp they are literally ganked by hotdrops and that is not pvp. That way are demotivating for who are trying to start on pvp, as they always ends on the same way, no matter what they do, its high skilled and trained pvpeers in a large superior numbers against no trained at all new pvpeers.

Small entities as CCP call the small alliances, are not going to be able to estabilish in null sec, at least for medium or long periods due the anterior and that new sov mechanichs. CCP are convicted that unused systems are the main problem or the renter alliances, but thats not true and they know that, systems are not in use just because they are not providing anything usefull to players as they have done 4 or 5 year ago where all systems are equal and the upgrades will upgrade only that system giving the real benefit to who work on that system.

Four years ago almost everybody as what are looking for, pvpeers, miners, explorers industrialists, traders etc, now almost anyone are getting what are looking for, and that is very bad for the game.

CCP have created and feeded the monster, now they havent any clue on how to dominate that monster and, the worst part of this story is, that said monster have dominated CCP.

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#211 - 2015-08-12 21:35:08 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
http://www.netsky.org/CCPJFRT.zip

RAW, UnCut, Full Length.
CCP/CSM Round Table: Jump Fatigue 2 hours 2 minutes.

Thank you! Downloading now.

Mike's Soundcloud isn't working for me Cry
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#212 - 2015-08-12 21:37:59 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/mike-azariah/jump

done and yes I know that the voice over is distracting, I honestly do not hear it anymore unless it is pointed out. It was just background noise for me.

I will do better next time (if there is a next time)

m


thank you mike! :)
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#213 - 2015-08-12 22:13:12 UTC
I am severely disappointed by this "townhall" thing. To me it looked like a very feeble attempt at damage control, and yet some people were still not able to put their ego second for once.

What I got out of this was "Eve is fine, L2P noobs". From a fellow player, I can take that. From a dev however, I don't want to hear this.
Tobias Frank
#214 - 2015-08-12 22:17:30 UTC
Thanks for uploading Mike! Next time please disable the Teamspeak sound notifications when recording. P
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#215 - 2015-08-12 22:18:40 UTC
I didn't want to be automatically negative about this but, it wasn't really a round table, more question and then defensive answering by CCP, without using any specifics. Unless they're willing to concede points and actually discuss the topics rather than brush off questions with some very canned responses i.e. "we might take a look in the future" or just being plain defensive, then there is little point to ideas like this regardless of the best intentions of the people who set it up.

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#216 - 2015-08-13 03:52:22 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
I didn't want to be automatically negative about this but, it wasn't really a round table, more question and then defensive answering by CCP, without using any specifics. Unless they're willing to concede points and actually discuss the topics rather than brush off questions with some very canned responses i.e. "we might take a look in the future" or just being plain defensive, then there is little point to ideas like this regardless of the best intentions of the people who set it up.



Out of curiousity, How would it have been better set up, then?

Please remember that CCP does not plan on announcing new things at informal q and a sessions. But would you decide to select a small crew of players excluding the larger population as not being worthy of having the floor? Exclude anybody who has not FC'd?. Who?

Or maybe it would have been better if we moderated more sternly . . . wander off topic, *shachchack BOOM* on to the next person.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Marcus Covinus
The Blood Ankhs
#217 - 2015-08-13 05:56:27 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
I didn't want to be automatically negative about this but, it wasn't really a round table, more question and then defensive answering by CCP, without using any specifics. Unless they're willing to concede points and actually discuss the topics rather than brush off questions with some very canned responses i.e. "we might take a look in the future" or just being plain defensive, then there is little point to ideas like this regardless of the best intentions of the people who set it up.



Out of curiousity, How would it have been better set up, then?

Please remember that CCP does not plan on announcing new things at informal q and a sessions. But would you decide to select a small crew of players excluding the larger population as not being worthy of having the floor? Exclude anybody who has not FC'd?. Who?

Or maybe it would have been better if we moderated more sternly . . . wander off topic, *shachchack BOOM* on to the next person.

m


It would've been better had CCP come ready to defend and discuss their positions. Instead of the "canned response". They made some rather belligerent remarks during the recourse of the roundtable that shows a severe bias in their thought process regarding development. CCP Fozzie has ZERO null sec experience as we are all aware.

His lack of experience is incredibly evident in the way he discusses the topics brought up during the roundtable. He's lucky CCP (I forgot his name the englishmen) was there to save him by being diplomatic.

Limiting mobility in a game where the largest problem is stagnation and the biggest threat to sov is an interceptor or other frigate with an entosis link. Get your head out of your arse and solve the real problem.

WhyTry1
Hitmen.
Cartel.
#218 - 2015-08-13 07:24:37 UTC
Baki Yuku wrote:
Hello, Baki Yuku of Black Legion rental overlord and fc thereof. I have a question for CCP regarding the jump-changes where CCP repeatedly stated moving should not be easy which just seems a bit silly to me because CCP’s version of “difficult” seems to be more time consuming and tedious instead of actual difficulty in any meaning full way. Why is it that a game should be “difficult” which in CCP words means time consuming to the point where it feels like having a second job? Should game not first and foremost be about fun? Spending 6-10 hours on a move op is not fun. Being more or less forced to destroy or entire dreadnought fleet in Venal and having to rebuild them in lowsec because it is economically sound and for the sake of our member’s sanity to do so is not fun either. You might say well you had the choice between moving them or insuring them and blowing them up to rebuild them in lowsec but it really was not a choice. It was a “forced” choice so to speak. It allowed us to preserve the sanity of our members at the expanse of my own.



Really? I dont understand you guys one minute its HTFU Eve is not easy, and secondly oh eve is too hard please make it easy! It seems its only when it makes your game hard its a problem when its someone else then they get trolled to htfu. For too long large nullsec alliances have had it for too easy. Even your statement rental overlord states basically as an alliance youre too damn lazy to own your own space and make money from it yourselves. You believe that your numbers and caps should get you out of trouble, well it shouldnt, thats been the issue. Probably even harder for BL being a jabber ping alliance!

Why dont yo uuse your own space for building? Why not mine your own minerals to make it more viable? No because you simply cant be arsed and thats what CCP has at last decided to say enough is enough.

One minute people want simulation and then when its suits them arcade mode. You want eve to be real but then not.

Imagine you are really in deep space, in hostile space, do you think it would be easy then? People colonise because they are zillions of miles away from space hubs. You have to do the same, you have to make your home. If you cant do that then perhaps you should not be living in nullsec?

Jump Fatigue Solution

Everyone was crying out for this, and the only people whining about it is surprisinig the large null sec alliances with caps that cant move around quickly to hotdrop whoever they want at a moments notice.
Also solo pilots trying to moving caps, supers and titans. You complain about choke points and being stuck, without someone easily knowing your next move. Well low sec have had this problem for years its called pirate gate camps. But for some reason thats Ok and people need to figure it out and not be so dumb. Go figure.
But really should you ever be moving a super or titan alone? without any support? of course not, thats a big target saying suicide and you being completely dumb.

But I agree its a little too easy for the person finding you. What i think might be a good change is that you can change the amount you can jump on a slider, which affects the jump fatiqgue factor and of course fuel consumption. For example if you want to jump 6LY then the jump fatique would be higher than if you jumped 5LY. I think this should be up to a maximum of 15LY. So at least you can have more options, not succumb so much to choke points, but still slows down power projection.


FozzieSov.
for too long alliances have been able to own stupid amounts of space and not even live in it, rent it out, use the moons and pretty much sit back and rely on supers to be the I win button, especially when jump fatigue wasnt around. CCP have decided and a great move it is, to say hey if you want space then your going to have to actually live in it, grow it, colonise it, and if you cant well you shouldnt have it. Bravo! absolutely the right thing to do.

its already had a profound affect, and especially on those large alliances such as NC. BL. etc that are just jabber ping alliances that are not active constantly and their members have got to used to playing the cap game.
But its been great for the smaller guys to grab some space and fight over it too. So I have to surprisingly give CCP the thumbs up and this one. Its about time.

Yes there are things that need to improve on fozziesov, its always been ike this in eve, things progress and change as the players feedback and use it more. Alliances like XXDeath who are crying because it affects their rental empire and botting need to get with the program and get in the new world or gtfo. Im tired of large vet alliances blackmailing CCP, you are not the future of eve, new players are and i think the penny has finally dropped with CCP.

Even though there is still a lot more work to do around the game to bring more players in. And CCP will need to make some big balls decisions like they recently have to do that. Stopping scamming for example is one.

However and this maybe controversial i think its time we had a new server instance, sorry but i dont agree with the one server philosophy, we have alliance been around for years that have taken and kept all the resources in eve for many years and left none for anyone else. its not fair on new players or newer players that they will never be able to have control of this. This is why many other mmos have multiple instances so that everyone has equal opportunities. Oh an no one would be able to transfer chars or ISK to a new server, incase you was wondering..


knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#219 - 2015-08-13 08:36:34 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
I didn't want to be automatically negative about this but, it wasn't really a round table, more question and then defensive answering by CCP, without using any specifics. Unless they're willing to concede points and actually discuss the topics rather than brush off questions with some very canned responses i.e. "we might take a look in the future" or just being plain defensive, then there is little point to ideas like this regardless of the best intentions of the people who set it up.



Out of curiousity, How would it have been better set up, then?

Please remember that CCP does not plan on announcing new things at informal q and a sessions. But would you decide to select a small crew of players excluding the larger population as not being worthy of having the floor? Exclude anybody who has not FC'd?. Who?

Or maybe it would have been better if we moderated more sternly . . . wander off topic, *shachchack BOOM* on to the next person.

m



Lets look at the reality - if you stick 100 people into a TS channel to discuss something it will turn into a clusterfuck so that isn't a viable proposition for a round table. They'll all start talking, it will go to **** and TS will crash.

It's not really about not being worthy, it's about picking players who have both experience and the maturity to hold a discussion, putting forth both their views and that of the wider community but also CCP being more willing to take part in open discussion and talk about potential concepts and ideas. No offence to the CSM, but this isn't something the CSM should be doing for players either - in the CSM right now I see only 3 people experienced in capitals (Endie, Manfred and shart). Why just hold one anyway? Hold as many as it takes to get the views in and thrash out the discussion.

So how could it be improved? I didn't hear one question to the players saying "how would you feel if we tried this?". That is a round table. That would be a great start to improving these.

The fear players will misinterpret what they say put out ideas? They need to drop the fear of players misinterpreting what they're saying or jumping to conclusions about that. State at the start it's a discussion, nothing more. Otherwise there is simply no point to these types of player interactions. Part of the reason that they get players misinterpreting what they say is the lack of interaction, the lack of proper discussion with players. All we get is Fozzie and Rise on their high horses making statements which make little sense to a good deal of players which then get misinterpreted or they just stone wall and say nothing which infuriates people. It's like they've been in some kind of PR training. Bill Hicks had some good advice for those types. They can defuse the whole supercap thing right now but having a very open discussion, a proper round table where they clearly state the ideas discussed are not what we're going to do but will be considered. If they don't, it will just get worse and worse.

Gathering customer - remember, we're customers - feedback in a constructive and useful manner has well developed methodologies which can be used if CCP wanted to adopt those but it does involve question and answers at some point. Not 3 canned responses and questions only going one way.


Magnifikus Erzverwirrer
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#220 - 2015-08-13 09:45:48 UTC
It was abit like, come join me riding my dead horse :)