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CCP/CSM Round Table: Jump Fatigue

First post
Author
Lugh Crow-Slave
#181 - 2015-08-10 16:07:05 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
I totally agree in this.
Jump bridges need to change.
This can be done in multiple ways - another possibility.
Jump bridges don't give you "blue timer" , but using jump bridge give you 5 minute "red timer".

Limiting them to one organization have its downsides - as many groups are split to 2 sub alliances.
First keeps all mains , and pvp characters, 2nd where you keep your alts ( cynos , JF, pve chars) , academy or friends.

So the question Roll is :

Will CCP consider changing jump bridge mechanic that they don't provide any fatigue (blue timer) , but instead of it generate only reactivation timer?
5 minute red timer for jumps within same region , and 15 minutes* of red timer for Jump Bridges between regions.


*to block abuse in power projection.


I'm not sure how easy this would be to do since they could not tie the jump timer to ships using cov ops portals and just had to tie it to all the ships that could use them

changing fatigue based on what was being used to jump doesn't seem to be something ccp can do with ease


as well the jump timer is tied to the fatigue timer and ignores the range you are jumping. it is only the fatigue timer that takes jumping into account

so if ccp can do this then \o/ and please remove the fatigue bonuse from cov ops/recon and put it onto the cov ops bridge
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#182 - 2015-08-10 16:56:52 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
I might be willing to concede to your idea, on one condition, it only applies to your alliance jump bridges

Jump bridges work by standings, so going from Deklein to Vale in a matter of a few minutes, then bridging to geminate is a bit too much power projection compared to what others have at their disposal, considering only a small portion of that is actual goon controlled space


Nor is any fleet doing that likely to be a 100% (or even 50%) goon fleet. So what you're really complaining about isn't jump bridges, it's politics.



Nope, that is a fleet traveling long distances with no drawback, which is power projection pure and simple.

BY your same token, jumping to beacons should accrue any fatty gay either then
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#183 - 2015-08-10 19:08:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vic Jefferson
Malcanis wrote:



Malcanis, I have come to expect better out of you.

It's impossible to fully separate and parse out the strength of the individual effects of FozzieSov vs Phoebe. Each individual effect plus their interaction best explains the current map and the change from the old one, rather than one effect on it's own. Jump fatigue alone does not explain the massive shift in the map, which you do assert.

Edit:
Perhaps not intentional, but its also odd that one of the selected maps shows coalitions, and one shows alliances. It would be more fair to show coalitions on both, of which the change is there, but less drastic.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

B0RG 0VERLORD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#184 - 2015-08-10 20:24:22 UTC  |  Edited by: B0RG 0VERLORD
a lot of people for and against any changes to the jump range/fatigue,so many pros and cons to it depending on were you live in eve.and main objections to changing it is due to power projection,so would it not be a better method of dealing with the power houses and not taking it out on the ships or the ships abilities

would removal of standings help.disband the power houses and lets get some killing in on all sides allow only one blue and one red the rest of the universe is nuetral

long live NBSI


further more as it was just pointed out to me to stop them forming mass alliances cap amounts allowed in corps and alliances to a max of 5000

Does CCP mean crap coding people

Justin Cody
War Firm
#185 - 2015-08-10 23:12:52 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
I totally agree in this.
Jump bridges need to change.
This can be done in multiple ways - another possibility.
Jump bridges don't give you "blue timer" , but using jump bridge give you 5 minute "red timer".

Limiting them to one organization have its downsides - as many groups are split to 2 sub alliances.
First keeps all mains , and pvp characters, 2nd where you keep your alts ( cynos , JF, pve chars) , academy or friends.

So the question Roll is :

Will CCP consider changing jump bridge mechanic that they don't provide any fatigue (blue timer) , but instead of it generate only reactivation timer?
5 minute red timer for jumps within same region , and 15 minutes* of red timer for Jump Bridges between regions.


*to block abuse in power projection.


I'm not sure how easy this would be to do since they could not tie the jump timer to ships using cov ops portals and just had to tie it to all the ships that could use them

changing fatigue based on what was being used to jump doesn't seem to be something ccp can do with ease


as well the jump timer is tied to the fatigue timer and ignores the range you are jumping. it is only the fatigue timer that takes jumping into account

so if ccp can do this then \o/ and please remove the fatigue bonuse from cov ops/recon and put it onto the cov ops bridge


No..please continue to suck it. Especially in light of the unprovoked WH nerf. Thank you and EABOD
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#186 - 2015-08-11 05:52:34 UTC
I know i missed the cutoff but here goes.

Major problems with phoebe
1) Effectively removed what many players view as end game material. Causing many to unsub.
2) Made eve a bigger place by reducing the ability to travel, due to less players playing this is a force multiplier for stagnation.

Major Problems with eve as a whole

1) New players so far behind an aging playerbase, skillpoints being the biggest and hardest thing to overcome; core skills are the biggest problem with getting newer players to play the game and stick with it. There's well over a year's worth of training for core skills. I define core skills as anything you train that has a passive effect not on a specific item. Its a long list of skills and a lot of skillpoints, for my characters I wouldn't care if I got a refund on them, but for lower SP characters they probably would. It is such a massive amount of skillpoints to refund that it should be done @ 1-2mil sp refunded per month and the skill then being a permanent passive or rolled into the base stats of everything it effected. This is to prevent the majority of the playerbase from having ~20+ million unallocated skillpoints.

2) Fozziesov turned sov warfare into a war of attrition to maintain your sov by opening up the ability for completely un-interested parties to troll sov owners. Not only is the concept of the entosis link terrible, the multinode system is bad. This is because it promotes small fights with annoying ships, not real combat. Battleships and above have basically been made useless by this. I really don't have a solution for this, other than come to some sort of middle ground between dominion sov and fozziesov. Bring back SBU's and structure grinding, but keep the indexes and have them modify the hitpoints/resists of structures and the SBU online time.

Judging by http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility we're back to mid 2007 login numbers, eve has had a very rough past year in this regard. To deny that in its current state eve is dieing would be foolish.
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#187 - 2015-08-11 15:18:40 UTC
I missed the cut-off, but this wasn't very well publicised so if you can include these questions, that would be great:

Once the capital rebalance is done, assuming jump fatigue stays in it's current format, would they consider SP reimbursement for selected capital only skills for those that wanted them? This is due to the fact that when people initially invested in both supercapitals and their supercapital alt, the game was significantly different to what it is today.

If jump fatigue was originally introduced to prevent fast and massive escalation of capital fights and this has been achieved, would CCP consider toning down fatique or extending jump range so the tedium of just moving a capital around is lessened? Pheobe didn't prevent capital deployment for long term war, it didn't prevent capital use as taxis, it just made it very, very tedious. It went from 20 minutes to get across EVE (if you're well oiled) to about 4 days by jumping only.

Would CCP consider adding back two jump bridges per system if fatigue remains the same as it is now? The fatigue itself would act as a deterrent for overuse.

Pheobe then Fozzie sov drastically changed the nature of fleet warfare, limiting fleets to not only in class but to very specific hulls (your stats may say otherwise but in game you'll notice this clearly). Would you consider rebalancing classes of ships to more diversify fleet combat? Or is a the predominately risk adverse kiting doctrines we see right now (and since pheobe went live) something CCP actually wants? Armoured close range ships and close range combat in general seems to have been killed with Pheobe.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#188 - 2015-08-11 17:37:03 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
BY your same token, jumping to beacons should accrue any fatty gay either then


Holy Autocorrect, Batman! :)

And there's a case to be made of exactly that: That fleets jumping to beacons aren't projecting power, they're moving around in areas you already hold. In fact, there's more of a case there, because my carrier can't jump to an ally's beacon, no matter what their standings are... rather like entosising. It just doesn't work.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that jump bridges etc don't make it a lot easier to hold a Coalition together - but at this point, I think it should be pretty clear they're not the defining tool for Power Projection that Greyscale seemed to think they were, and his own statements indicated that you were supposed to be able to move around your own space.

So why not ADM 'em? Reduce fatigue for using a JB or jump drive (but not a titan bridge) based on friendly ADM. If we're supposed to be able to move around our own space, let us move around our own space.
PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#189 - 2015-08-11 18:49:09 UTC
I hope jump ranges revert back to the old values some day, with no jump fatigue, because new fozzie sov doesn't favor any capital ships, as capital ships play absolutely no role in taking sov anymore.
Anyone with noob ship can take any system he wants, no matter how many capital ships defender brings.
Ben Fenix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#190 - 2015-08-11 19:08:50 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
I hope jump ranges revert back to the old values some day, with no jump fatigue, because new fozzie sov doesn't favor any capital ships, as capital ships play absolutely no role in taking sov anymore.
Anyone with noob ship can take any system he wants, no matter how many capital ships defender brings.



All capital ships would literally reduce your chances of defending to zero vs small none hit-able ships.


1)
Next they will be further reducing ship loss for anything sub capital. This will allow them to reduce capital ships in game by attrition, as people will prefer flying ships they cannot lose. Nullsec was an excellent use case test for this customer behavior.

2)
Then, they will make capital ship blueprints hard to research and buy. Further reducing capitals in game.

3)
It's important that we don't panic. CCP has great plans for capitals ships.

#Soup

Vinz Clortho
Doomheim
#191 - 2015-08-11 19:17:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vinz Clortho
Ben Fenix wrote:
PAPULA wrote:
I hope jump ranges revert back to the old values some day, with no jump fatigue, because new fozzie sov doesn't favor any capital ships, as capital ships play absolutely no role in taking sov anymore.
Anyone with noob ship can take any system he wants, no matter how many capital ships defender brings.



All capital ships would literally reduce your chances of defending to zero vs small none hit-able ships.


1)
Next they will be further reducing ship loss for anything sub capital. This will allow them to reduce capital ships in game by attrition, as people will prefer flying ships they cannot lose. Nullsec was an excellent use case test for this customer behavior.

2)
Then, they will make capital ship blueprints hard to research and buy. Further reducing capitals in game.

3)
It's important that we don't panic. CCP has great plans for capitals ships.


You have discovered CCP's plans!
That is great news. Now that it's a matter of public information, they will have no choice but to return back to PAPULA's suggestion. Original jump ranges and capital ship usability.

Capital Ships Matter !
PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#192 - 2015-08-11 19:52:20 UTC
Ben Fenix wrote:

All capital ships would literally reduce your chances of defending to zero vs small none hit-able ships.


I don't know if you know but:
5x penalty to Entosis Link cycle time

For all capitals, that gives you enough time to jump in your capitals with 15 au range and kill them.
And try to hit a ceptor with moros if you can.


Jim Khan
Doomheim
#193 - 2015-08-11 20:31:18 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
Ben Fenix wrote:

All capital ships would literally reduce your chances of defending to zero vs small none hit-able ships.


I don't know if you know but:
5x penalty to Entosis Link cycle time

For all capitals, that gives you enough time to jump in your capitals with 15 au range and kill them.
And try to hit a ceptor with moros if you can.




I would love to see the fit that lets a Moros hit a ceptor?
Not possible after the nerfs.
PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#194 - 2015-08-11 20:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: PAPULA
Jim Khan wrote:

I would love to see the fit that lets a Moros hit a ceptor?
Not possible after the nerfs.

Of course it's not possible, that makes dreads obsolete if you wanna kill a ceptor entosisin™
Ben Fenix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#195 - 2015-08-11 21:38:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Fenix
Idea for creating more activity in nullsec.
Tie jump fatigue to the hull. Increase industry, Increase ISK drain, Increase market activity, Increase hauling.Nullsec will be booming with a new economy to compensate for "Jump Fatigue". People cannot afford to buy alts on the char bazaar to compensate for pilot jump fatigue. Many also cannot afford to sub alternate accounts. Buying new ships once in awhile is far more realistic.

Idea for increasing fights in nullsec.
Reduce alliances via unrealistic ISK fee. (10 billion a month). Maybe remove alliances and coalitions entirely.


Idea for reducing capital ship usage. Continue on the same road. Reduce our abilities to use capitals ships. You are only 1 step away from completely removing them.

Idea for fixing carriers without completely removing them? Let ships dock inside carriers. Allow carriers to jump with a 15 man fleet from point A to point B and absorb all the jump fatigue. Or even better, be immune to jump fatigue. They are called carriers after all.

#Soup

loquacious7
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#196 - 2015-08-11 22:55:53 UTC
Zverofaust wrote:
1) "Who in CCP actually thought it was actually a good idea to use boredom and tedium as a balancing factor in a video game?"

2) "Why haven't they been fired?"



:) THIS!
I often wondered why they punish players who spent a great deal of isk and over a year of skill training. Add up the isk and time spent with those skills, then put in a pile and burn it. *I think a great deal of capital pilots felt the punishment (nerf) was a little severe.
Yes there was a problem with power projection, not enough of it :)
Would any military industry nerf their weapons/ships. Odd how the game logic is not following RL experiences (in a real sandbox the ships that do not preform as well as others would be upgraded as well) not nerfed.
Ben Fenix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#197 - 2015-08-11 23:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Fenix
...

#Soup

Sort Dragon
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#198 - 2015-08-12 11:55:28 UTC
For those wanting to listen in to the townhall today you can keep track by listening on twitch at http://www.twitch.tv/spectrefleet
Kari Trace
#199 - 2015-08-12 14:34:02 UTC
loquacious7 wrote:
Zverofaust wrote:
1) "Who in CCP actually thought it was actually a good idea to use boredom and tedium as a balancing factor in a video game?"

2) "Why haven't they been fired?"



:) THIS!
I often wondered why they punish players who spent a great deal of isk and over a year of skill training. Add up the isk and time spent with those skills, then put in a pile and burn it. *I think a great deal of capital pilots felt the punishment (nerf) was a little severe.
Yes there was a problem with power projection, not enough of it :)
Would any military industry nerf their weapons/ships. Odd how the game logic is not following RL experiences (in a real sandbox the ships that do not preform as well as others would be upgraded as well) not nerfed.


Recommending sub-caps should have been `upgraded` with jump drives? :D. In honesty though I do agree with you, its Fatigue nurf was a bit harsh. Maybe a hard cap of 7 days instead of 30. I DO however VERY much like the fact that the fatigue mechanic has caused the collapse of and contraction of most of the pre existing null-blocs. Yes, it has had it's intended effect, I am ok with that. Now, how do we make jump bridges worth having without going back to having 250 archon blobs moving all across the map in 15mins.

I like making things explode.

Kari Trace

TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#200 - 2015-08-12 14:58:06 UTC
Can we get a link where we can watch later?

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-