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A just and lasting peace
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Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#41 - 2011-12-19 15:40:23 UTC
Vechtor wrote:
By the way you and your organization are the ones who can speak the least about peace (Mr. Hawke included) as you've engaged in military actions against Caldari MIlitia forces for several times. This is public information and it ruins your credibility. Or Mr. Hawke's. You can't speak about peace when you take sides...


Vechtor,

I'm not sure what has poisoned you against the cause you once claimed to support, but your anger saddens me. Perhaps we should speak in private and come to some peace between us.

As to your public statements here, I'll reply to you thusly:

I am a man, nothing more. I have made mistakes and allowed myself to be goaded into actions that I am not particularly proud of.

However, just because a man may stray from the proper path, it does not mean that he is forever after barred from that path. Like the sailors of old, we must all take a moment from time to time to check the stars and realign our heading.

I have done so and I encourage you and others to do the same.

May you find peace and harmony in your days.
Vechtor
Doomheim
#42 - 2011-12-19 23:13:53 UTC
Saxon Hawke wrote:


Vechtor,

I'm not sure what has poisoned you against the cause you once claimed to support...



Mr. Hawke,
There is no need to discuss privately what I have to say publicly.

I'm not poisoned against the cause I not only claimed to support but indeed supported, putting my assets, time, efforts and credibility on the line. And to some extent, I remember having ILF recognition for some things I did. I don't remember, though, ILF having FULL recognition for many things I did. For example, I remember once when you told me that ILF is a political organization, not military, and that all my efforts towards Viriette security were minimized whenever I had ideas to accomplish that very much practical task. One day I saw that there was a clear difference between the cause I indeed supported.... and ILF, ILF being much more of a close group of people from which I was out, especially when it came to strategic decisions even though being one of the most active and team oriented person, and the Intaki cause, from which I've never left ever since.

I do remember ILF was NEUTRAL to factional warfare. What happened?

I tell you what happened.

Your organization tried to have the better of "both worlds". When you say you are a man and nothing more, and you feel sorry for some things you've done or allowed to happen under your ranks, I completely understand you, and you should feel sorry because ILF got corrupted on its essence because of those things.

What I don't understand is how you come here to claim you've WON A WAR against part of the Caldari militia just after you attacked Caldari militia or helped I-RED to attack the Caldari militia (and I was there commanding my battle cruiser with them for many times what I don't feel sorry for having done, because Damar Rocarion is the most ridiculous leader or want to be leader I've ever seen) and couple of months later you return here criticizing people for not seeking "a just and lasting peace".

I take it that you are trying to have the best part of two contradictory worlds, being those:

- trying to influence politically said war between both states and having superior recognition on that task and;

- At the same time, working towards Intaki military independence using violent force whenever it is of your interest.

You will have to understand, some day, that you can't have both or allow other people to influence ILF on both actions. You will have to rescue ILF original values and teach them again to your pilots and you will have to return on your neutrality towards every military issue the Federation or the State may have. But the most important thing, from now on, you will have to LISTEN people criticizing you and ILF, because if it is the case that Intaki people decides they are happy with the status quo, you will have to simply accept it, face it, and admit that you can't bring a better condition to people that already have taken their decision.

So I give you the very same words you've directed to me: may you find peace and harmony in your days. Because you will need it.
Sakaane Eionell
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#43 - 2011-12-28 01:49:40 UTC
Vechtor,

It seems to me you have come to this discussion crying over some perceived slight to your ego because the Suresha, or the ILF as a whole, did not always pat you on the head and say "Good job" like a mother does with her five year old son after he has cleaned his room. I wasn't aware the pursuit of independence for Intaki rested so heavily upon you scoring limelight for yourself.

You and I don't know each other, as you left the ILF's ranks before I joined them. But I have heard of you. Here is your legacy: When you were with the ILF, you earned the trust and respect of many of your fellow pilots. After your departure you were spoken of in high regard and your contributions during that time were remembered fondly. In my presence your former friends and allies had expressed regret that you left and even, then, that they missed you! But what happened? One day not long ago you decided to spit venom on those same people and declared ILF an enemy. In doing so you betrayed their trust and respect. Now you come here whining about not receiving "FULL recognition" for the things you have done? Congratulations, you have our attention now. Your legacy is disgraced, stained and poisoned and we return your sentiment to hunt us down with our own promise to defend ourselves with lethal force if we should ever have occasion to meet.

Perhaps you have gone mad from being podded once too often, in which case I might be able to excuse your behavior. If you carry AD&D insurance you should consider checking if you are eligible to claim for the "Psychological Reconditioning Benefit". Such counseling and personality rehabilitation might be useful to you.

Yes, the ILF is a political, not military, organization. Boohoo for you that some of your ideas for the security of Viriette were rejected. Welcome to life, where not every supposedly brilliant idea you come up with meets the needs of the organization. Can't toe the line? I guess it was easier to leave than explore ways to broaden your understanding and adjust your own attitude.

So then you bring up the question of neutrality in the war between the empires. Elements within the Caldari militia have proven time and again their stance regarding Intaki and their total disregard for the value of the lives residing there. What would you have us do, stand idly by and ask or expect others to bloody their hands for us? Do you honestly think we should just lie down and allow our pilots to be railroaded and killed by those pirates simply because we are supposed to be "neutral"? Being neutral does not mean we give up our right to defend ourselves from maniacal sycophants who **** on our front doorstep!

ILF does not exist to breed prolific killers or collect enemies simply to give idle pilots something to shoot at. It exists for the betterment of Intaki and her people. It is true we need warriors to help achieve that end, but simply being a cudgel would make us no better than them. So yes, we strive, above all else, for a just and lasting peace. We strive to minimize our application of violent force wherever possible, but sometimes violent force is still necessary. Sometimes we'll slip up, but as someone else pointed out, we're still just human. We learn and move on.

A truly wise warrior knows when to draw his sword (or pistol, or warship) and when to leave it sheathed. Through experience, the Suresha understands this. Do you?

Suresha

We are the few, spoken of by many | Solitary Pilot
John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#44 - 2011-12-28 11:22:04 UTC
While I am unaware of the full extent of you're dealings between yourself and the ILF Vechtor. I do know that the ILF with the full extent of the IPI have been more of a positive influence onto the Intaki populace then a negative factor.

It is easy to criticize someone for his shortcomings when he makes the effort for change, then it is to criticize someone who has not made the effort at all. Think about it. I do not see anyone else making the attempts for peace as the ILF have for years nor do I expect it... in these times we have chosen the path of fear and hatred. In return we the majority shall be ruled by it.

Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
Vechtor
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-01-01 12:52:14 UTC
Sakaane Eionell wrote:

One day not long ago you decided to spit venom on those same people and declared ILF an enemy. In doing so you betrayed their trust and respect. Now you come here whining about not receiving "FULL recognition" for the things you have done? Congratulations, you have our attention now.


I'm afraid Sanya or someone else in Kisec didn't understood why I've said that when I wanted to leave Kisec not long ago. I was testing them and their determination to keep their allies and expel me as quickly as they could because they were in fact concerned about Mr. Saxon's recent aggressiveness inside ILF's restricted comm channels (which Sanya could still access). I wouldn’t bring this public in respect to Sanya and I-RED's leader John Revenent, but because you've said that, now I gota do it. I still have records of Sanya letting me know that I-RED could even wardec IPI for that matter and I can prove it to you. Then we can see who is indeed spitting venom. You think I'm a child for saying unfundamented things. You better think twice.

Sakaane Eionell wrote:

So then you bring up the question of neutrality in the war between the empires. Elements within the Caldari militia have proven time and again their stance regarding Intaki and their total disregard for the value of the lives residing there. What would you have us do, stand idly by and ask or expect others to bloody their hands for us? Do you honestly think we should just lie down and allow our pilots to be railroaded and killed by those pirates simply because we are supposed to be "neutral"? Being neutral does not mean we give up our right to defend ourselves from maniacal sycophants who **** on our front doorstep!


Of course not.
The problem is not allowing you to defend yourselves because you are in ILF, or IPI, an alliance that was created in order to (try to) avoid a war against part of the FEDERATION MILITIA, in case you don't know it. If you want to know more about ILF's failure dealing with both Caldari and the Federation militia politics, you can either talk to me or someone else with more time in ILF than yourself.
What puzzles me is that you wanna fight, but you also wanna keep your "political neutrality speech". You wanna fight, but you wanna pursuit "a long lasting peace" at the same time. Pick a side and fight for it, being Caldari's, or Federation's, or I-RED's, or Serpentis, or whatever, but pick a side. Or be neutral. But be truly neutral. Don't try to pursuit the best of both opposing worlds as it is impossible to achieve that situation...

Sakaane Eionell wrote:

ILF does not exist to breed prolific killers or collect enemies simply to give idle pilots something to shoot at. It exists for the betterment of Intaki and her people. It is true we need warriors to help achieve that end, but simply being a cudgel would make us no better than them. So yes, we strive, above all else, for a just and lasting peace. We strive to minimize our application of violent force wherever possible, but sometimes violent force is still necessary. Sometimes we'll slip up, but as someone else pointed out, we're still just human. We learn and move on.


Well, then, you should have a bit of a focus...
Your main threat now is a group of people called "Muppet Ninja's". They've been in Placid for quite a while now. What are ILF and IPI doing with that regard?

Sakaane Eionell wrote:

A truly wise warrior knows when to draw his sword (or pistol, or warship) and when to leave it sheathed. Through experience, the Suresha understands this. Do you?


No, I don't think the Suresha understands this as ILF has been drawn to something it can handle for many times...
I do, as I've left Placid already...
Vechtor
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-01-01 13:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vechtor
John Revenent wrote:
While I am unaware of the full extent of you're dealings between yourself and the ILF Vechtor. I do know that the ILF with the full extent of the IPI have been more of a positive influence onto the Intaki populace then a negative factor.

It is easy to criticize someone for his shortcomings when he makes the effort for change, then it is to criticize someone who has not made the effort at all. Think about it. I do not see anyone else making the attempts for peace as the ILF have for years nor do I expect it... in these times we have chosen the path of fear and hatred. In return we the majority shall be ruled by it.



I wouldn’t ever criticize you for that matter... I can criticize other people, but not you. I could criticize some of your kamikaze FC'ing techniques Smile, but not criticize you on your intentions towards bringing stability and peace both in the Syndicate and Placid regions which I've always considered legitimate (I wouldn’t risk so many battle cruisers flying with you otherwise...), even though for many times I-RED, in the end, got to bring even more war to Intaki.

Hell is full of well intentioned people anyway.
Valdezi
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#47 - 2012-01-01 23:42:11 UTC
Since we're going public, here's this - Vechtor, for the record, I was against you joining KISEC, and I was glad to see you go.

You're not even worth the skin off my knuckles, junior. You put fire to everything you touch, Vechtor, then you walk away while it burns.

I've got nothing more to say to you.
Sanya
Alexylva Paradox
#48 - 2012-01-02 19:55:42 UTC
My concern was not for Saxon Hawke, when expelling you. When you gave me an ultimatum like you did, I wanted nothing more to do with you. Like I said, nobody in KISEC goes on a personal vendetta without consequences.

You also apparantly did not understand why I was suggesting a concideration for war against the ILF, but that has nothing to do with you anymore, and is no longer of any concern to you.

I am more than happy to elaborate on this with the ILF, should they want to.

The fact that we havent pushed for war, on the contrary worked together, is proof enough that I have had no immediate desire to destroy them. Much unlike yourself.

You seem more bent on burning bridges rather than building them.

Your logs of our conversations is more proof of you being untrustworthy than it is portraying me as a spiteful woman.

.
Sakaane Eionell
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#49 - 2012-01-02 21:44:09 UTC
Sanya,

I am certain any of us within ILF Leadership or on the diplomatic staff would be happy to set aside time to discuss any potential, perceived, or actual issues between our organizations.

Suresha

We are the few, spoken of by many | Solitary Pilot
Vechtor
Doomheim
#50 - 2012-01-03 22:41:27 UTC
Valdezi wrote:
Since we're going public, here's this - Vechtor, for the record, I was against you joining KISEC, and I was glad to see you go.

You're not even worth the skin off my knuckles, junior. You put fire to everything you touch, Vechtor, then you walk away while it burns.

I've got nothing more to say to you.


That’s funny, because I wasn't expecting anything from you to be said at all.

I said everything I wanted to the original creator of this thread and the only thing that is important for me is for him to read. Not you.

Your opinions never had any importance to me because you are at the same time part of KISEC and a close affiliate (or should I say something more like in the "agent" scope...) of ILF's Mammal Tafren, what to say the least harms everything KISEC could be as an untied corporation, especially with regard to political organizations that are far from representing any Intaki unanimity.

Valdezi, I was against you being part of KISEC while I was there because you don't do anything for KISEC as an autonomous corporation except to engage on I-RED fleets...
Vechtor
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-01-03 22:52:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vechtor
Sanya wrote:

My concern was not for Saxon Hawke, when expelling you.


For the record, you didn't expeled me: I left.
I had already moved all my assets from Intaki but a BC and warned you I was leaving. You did your part removing roles from me and even waited for me to join another corp per my request as a gesture of good faith, a deserved trust between people who worked together many times fighting for the safety of Intaki...

Sanya wrote:


Your logs of our conversations is more proof of you being untrustworthy than it is portraying me as a spiteful woman.


As I said, I wouldn’t bring this issue to public if it wasn't for an ILF member to say in public that I considered them an enemy if I only said that in a restricted channel to very few people based on a very specific goal I had to test your integrity and AFTER having the knowledge that this wasn't even an original idea from me inside KISEC or I-RED. You didn't denied it. You couldn't...

Maybe you should rethink everything. As you seem to be smarter....
If you can't control your dogs, you shouldn’t own dogs at all. Or you may have the very same end as I am here at the IGS, with people calling you "untrustworthy".
Conventia Underking
Underking Family
Khimi Harar
#52 - 2012-01-04 09:47:27 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
...And I thought brother Archbishop's sermons were long-winded.


Fascinating, we agree on something, Admiral.

For God; Salvation is Imperative, but not at the cost of our Humanity!

The Vitoc Problem - Conventia Underking
Sanya
Alexylva Paradox
#53 - 2012-01-04 18:23:17 UTC
Vechtor, nobody contacted the ILF without my conscent, so this is on me, not whoever spoke.

My "dogs" are very much "in control" if you must know. You didn`t see or understood my reasoning behind this. And in a way, I suppose it helped weeding out the disloyal.

You seem to misunderstand how KISEC is run. It is not ruled as a dictatorship, although some choice I make on my own, because I think it is for the best to everyone as a whole, and some things must be "CEO-ed". We may appear as mere goons to I-RED to you, but then you have misunderstood us completely. KISEC is not a race for pride and recognition. It`s for the best of Intaki, not for ourselves.

KISEC was not for you, and I can respect that. But honestly, you trying to bring us down and taint us to defend your own public image is really doing more harm than good to yourself.

The logs has been forwarded to Saxon Hawke and Sakaane by me, and I am not afraid of what was in them. The cards are on the table, and you have been disarmed. The game is over and you have lost.

.
Vechtor
Doomheim
#54 - 2012-01-05 22:30:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vechtor
Sanya wrote:

The logs has been forwarded to Saxon Hawke and Sakaane by me, and I am not afraid of what was in them. The cards are on the table, and you have been disarmed. The game is over and you have lost.


That’s cool. I've done the same two days ago. But I respect your attitude, as it is the right one. Especially if you have nothing to fear. You are not disarming anything.

None of what you are saying can or make any sense. If it wasn't for Sakaane's post none of this would happen and Sakaane's post only happened because I was disagreeing with Saxon at the IGS, something that people should learn to accept as Saxon is not an untouchable saint. By the way nothing I replied to HIM on this post was logicaly refuted. Instead, Sakaane tried to use what I call "authority arguments" to try to minimize what I was saying to him. I'll never retreat from "authority arguments" from anybody and I have infinite energy to fight them.

None of what you say about me makes sense. I still have a mail from Apolonius Verus regreting my leaving from ILF as my devotion to the corporation and team work profile inside ILF was an example, something he would miss. I take his words, someone who was allways the real workhorse inside ILF as the ones who had the most decent and real meaning to me. I really regret Saxon wasn't the one saying them because he was, after all, ILF's CEO. He never really tried to understand why I've left nor direct any questions to me with that regard what proves that everything I say about ILF is right, unless otherwise proven.

I have never aggressed ANY ILF member and even if I stated I would inside YOUR corporation mailling system, you don't have any proofs whatsoever I would do. And I woudn't, because I was only testing the integrity of YOUR corporation towards YOUR blues. For the record, I had a clear opportunity to blow up Bataav's Myrmidon at the asteroid belt around Intaki's first planet that same day, which I didn't... If not because of friendship, at least for my history of work with KISEC and ILF I think I deserved the benefit of the doubt.

If you think I'm playing games with you, you are pathetic. If you see things this way, and try to attack me instead of deffend me, you are only showing that you are nothing.... but a goon. Go do what you do best: blow ship up. Let the politics and ballance of power to other people...
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#55 - 2012-01-05 23:14:49 UTC
This argument is a disservice to everyone participating here.

This could be handled better.

Katrina Oniseki
John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#56 - 2012-01-06 01:17:46 UTC
Agreed Oniseki-haani.

Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
Sakaane Eionell
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#57 - 2012-01-08 19:20:06 UTC
Whatever the intentions of some participants may have been, revelations about war and other such negativity in this thread's recent discourse has not swayed us from our pursuit of peace.

We know who our friends are, and so do they.

Suresha

We are the few, spoken of by many | Solitary Pilot
Kaleigh Doyle
Doomheim
#58 - 2012-01-08 19:43:26 UTC
I've always seen war, and in particular between the State and Federation, in the light of a relationship in turmoil. Peace isn't easy. It takes the active cooperation of both sides to make it work, and when it's easier to look for fault in your partner you'll never make any progress. If indeed war is diplomacy by other means, what kind of message is both side really bringing to the bargaining table?

xoxo
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