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Why Eve is Failing and will "die off" with in 3 years

First post
Author
Lu Ziffer
Balanced Unity
Goonswarm Federation
#81 - 2015-08-04 21:01:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Okay now think about it.
You won´t notice players who are staying out of eve because they don´t want to be forced to pvp.
Now if CCP gives these people a superhighsec you will still not notice them but CCP gets some income.
If CCP gets some income it is good for EVERY eve player.
Plain simple and really not argueable.
Plain, simple, and pretty much entirely false.

They will be noticed since they will have a negative impact on the overall economy and balance of the game, and they will not yield any income since they will not stick around — after all, they're not exposed to any of the “sticky” parts of the game. Instead, CCP will have committed resources to something that gives no return and which causes game-wide imbalances that they have to commit even more resources to fixing.

So it's bad for CCP, bad for the game, and bad for pretty much all players.

Catering to players who don't want to PvP in a full-time PvP game is a losing proposition — what they want is inherently incompatible with the core concept of the game and as such can't be blended into it without breaking everything else. The result of such attempts will only ever be one thing: no traction among new players, since the game still isn't for them, and a loss of old players since the game no longer is for them either — i.e. fewer players, less money, less development and maintenance, lessened ability to attract investors, and an overall less compelling product for everyone.


EVE is not a full-time PVP game and it never was. You would know that if you had been in a war with alarmclocking ops 24/7 for 6 month. EVE is 90% PVE and industry and 10% PVP at best and that is ok because if it would be a 100% PVP players would burn out and there would be not enough ISK in EVE to pay for all the ships that are lost.

There is a super highsec it is limited to 12 newbie systems.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#82 - 2015-08-04 21:03:11 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Superhighsec would have ****** income and the impact on economy would be a joke.

You are ignorantly skipping over what people will do when presented with a safer option. So no, the impact will be measurable. Not that it matters, your claim was inherently false regardless, as was the “not arguable” nonsense.

Quote:
Eve is not one game. In fact it is many games somehow in one world.
Incorrect. It is one big interconnected system where small changes can, will, and always do have huge impacts — this has been demonstrated by every change ever.

Quote:
Really why not give some carebears some worthless, carebear space???]
Because the game does not allow for it without breaking one of the core design elements of the game. In order for that kind of space to work, it must be disconnected from the rest of the server, or it will be abused and it will have deleterious effects on the system as a whole. If it is disconnected from the rest of the server, it is no longer EVE. It's as simple as that.

Quote:
Actually I didn´t see any good argument against superhighsec and more social behaviour in eve apart from "I am a saddistic psychopath who wants to get easy kills".
Learn to read and stop projecting your own cognitive deficiencies on other players.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#83 - 2015-08-04 21:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lu Ziffer wrote:
EVE is not a full-time PVP game and it never was.
CCP disagrees. It is in fact the exact words they use to describe the game to new players, and it perfectly describes how the game works. If you think otherwise, you haven't really thought about it (or just completely misunderstood EVE's fundamental design).

The amount of activities that have no PvP element can be counted on the fingers of one hand — for all intents and purposes, the game is 100% PvP. Even the content that would be PvE in a lesser game is PvP in EVE. It's just how the game was designed from day 1, and how it continues to function to this day.
CCP New Player FAQ wrote:
In EVE Online, any player may attack any other player if they choose to, no matter where they happen to be. This is because EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core.

[…]

Furthermore, as we mentioned previously, once you enter New Eden you must consider every action you take as a form of PvP since this is the core game concept. In the asteroid field you’re competing with other pilots to obtain resources; you may also have to defend against ore thieves. On the market you battle for control of the economy in certain areas; for the supply and demand of your products versus other aspiring tycoons. On the battlefield you may fight for glory, for money, or for the right to rule whole areas of space.

[…]

The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment.

[…]

There are various ways that players can engage with others in EVE. Simple combat is one of the most common forms of PvP

[…]

Can I avoid PvP completely?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. The safest systems are the ‘rookie systems’ where new players start their journey in EVE.
So yeah, no. If you think that EVE is not a full-time PvP game, you have disqualified yourself from having an opinion on the topic until you stop being so blatantly and laughably uninformed.

Quote:
There is a super highsec it is limited to 12 newbie systems.
Not really, no. The only difference that exists with those systems is that the GMs have even less tolerance for newbie griefing there than they do in other systems. Beyond that, the highsecness isn't higher there than it is anywhere else.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#84 - 2015-08-04 21:27:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Wish you had proposed *logging in for free, skillqueue for cash/plex*. I'd have liked the possibility of occasionally returning vets that still had a couple machs lying around, might shake up the landscape and such. People giving eve another try, cause it's free - sort of. People that by now would just buy a dozen plex instead of farming ingame. (I'm aware that's like ritual suicide for the company without pink goggles)

That standing mechanics thing looks terrible, *We sacrifice these plat insured carriers for the sake of instant blue standings*.
Lu Ziffer
Balanced Unity
Goonswarm Federation
#85 - 2015-08-04 21:28:42 UTC
I would agree that the chance you have to interact in PVP is close to 100%.
But lets count non PVP acticities
1. Ratting 2. Mining 3. Missions 4. Trading 5. Production 6.PI 7. Reactions 8. Invention 9. Logistics 10. Incursions 11. WH Ratting 12. Looting 13. Salvaging 14. Exploration 15 Escalation running . If you do not believe that all of these are differant ways of non PVP you should look around.
That is more then a few and actually 95% of the time players are doing this instead of PVP.
There are intel channels basicly setup to avoid unwanted PVP.

PVP is needed to gain space and keep it but all the non PVP is needed to pay for it and to make it possible.

War Thunder , WOT is PVP only. EVE is every game ever invented combined that is why it is so complicated.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#86 - 2015-08-04 21:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lu Ziffer wrote:
I would agree that the chance you have to interact in PVP is close to 100%.
But lets count non PVP acticities
1. Ratting 2. Mining 3. Missions 4. Trading 5. Production 6.PI 7. Reactions 8. Invention 9. Logistics 10. Incursions 11. WH Ratting 12. Looting 13. Salvaging 14. Exploration 15 Escalation running .

1. Ratting is done in competition with other players.
↳ 11. WH ratting is ratting.
2. Mining is done in competition with other players.
3. Missions are open to competition from other players.
4. Trading is entirely competition with other players.
5. Production is done in competition with other players.
↳ 6. PI is production.
↳ 7. Doing reactions is production.
↳ 8. Invention is production.
9. Logistics is done to compete with other players, and open to interdiction by them.
10. Incursions are done in competition with other players.
12. Looting is done in competition with other players.
13. Salvaging is done in competition with other players.
14. Exploration is done in competition with other players.
↳ 15. Escalation running is exploration.

So you failed to list a single non-PvP activity, and managed to pad your failure by 50% through the use of obvious duplicates.

In fact, let's quote that bit again:
CCP New Player FAQ wrote:
Furthermore, as we mentioned previously, once you enter New Eden you must consider every action you take as a form of PvP since this is the core game concept. In the asteroid field you’re competing with other pilots to obtain resources; you may also have to defend against ore thieves. On the market you battle for control of the economy in certain areas; for the supply and demand of your products versus other aspiring tycoons. On the battlefield you may fight for glory, for money, or for the right to rule whole areas of space.
Let's see if it sticks this time…

Quote:
There are intel channels basicly setup to avoid unwanted PVP.
…because the game is full-time PvP, part of which is combat that will usually incur unwanted losses. So it makes sense to use intel to reduce your exposure. It does not actually remove the PvP — it just further proves that it's omnipresent.


There are only two things I can think of in the entire game that are not subject to PvP: clicking the “request mission” button and clicking the “complete mission” button (but even then, it assumes you haven't been PvPed in the mean-time). If those two are available to you, then there is actually nothing that anyone else can do to interfere. Beyond that, everything else is, or is subject to PvP.
Juan Mileghere
Meta Zero
Meta Reloaded
#87 - 2015-08-04 22:01:54 UTC
People will always circumvent/take advantage of mechanics you either need to help by becoming or creating content, look most people can't dedicate to helping provide content or are not interested in said content and on that same note most new players just blatantly will not fit in well with EVE, it's not a matter of much it's just how the game is, try to API check new guys... seriously, try it and you'll get every other one to freak out, or try to pull a new guy out of rookie chat onto TS, or any one of a number of things.

Side note to OP
Listing off things to make you sound like an expert generally means... yeah if you need to tell people how competent that you are but you actually don't show it off.

Yes, **** needs work but how is a question I'll admit I don't have a damn answer to.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#88 - 2015-08-04 22:27:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Colt Blackhawk wrote:


Translation: "But I am **** and want to kill targets that can´t shoot back in highsec"

Okay now think about it.
You won´t notice players who are staying out of eve because they don´t want to be forced to pvp.
Now if CCP gives these people a superhighsec you will still not notice them but CCP gets some income.
If CCP gets some income it is good for EVERY eve player.
Plain simple and really not argueable.

And no you can look at my kb I am no highsec bear. But apart from most eve palyers I am a social one and not happy about ganking bears or new players.
E.g I even reimibursed most people when I saw that I killed a new probably noobish toon.
Eve simply actually rewards tooooooo much being an antisocial badass and that is not good.

Edit: VEEEEEERY BRAVE posting with an npc corp alt.



Actually I don't shoot anyone in highsec. Highsec is boring, and for risk averse PvPer's. I roam low and null solo. However, I understand the core concept of the game. Something you clearly don't. Ganking occurs in HS, because otherwise, ratters/miners/explorers would NEVER replace ships, except on the occasional disconnect. What happens to an economy when no one is buying/selling?

The part i find most amusing about your big "internet tough guy" ego is that you have described yourself here:

Colt Blackhawk wrote:
wannabe pro-pvpers


You come here, whining about PvP and how people who shoot other's who are casuals/defenseless are "psychopaths" and making people leave. Yet your KB is absolutely littered with cyno alt ships and blobbing/hot dropping ratters. You're padding your KB to actually become one of those "wannabe pro-pvpers". With the ignorance to back it up. The irony is off the charts.

There are already "superhisec" systems, its where GM's make sure the newbro's aren't griefed. Hisec was NEVER advertised as being completely safe. The game has never advertised any kind of safe-zone, as that is the core concept of the game. You. Are. Never. Safe. (except when you're a newb in a newb system, or docked.. to an extent).

As someone mentioned already, you break what makes EVE unique, and you will alienate your most loyal playerbase. Meanwhile, these "theme park" players you want to attract, will dump eve after a few months and never look back. At the same time, the veterans will dump EVE because it has turned into another "theme park MMO" of unicorns, butterflies and happy safe places.

PS: I fly in an NPC FW corp so i can shoot nullscrubs like you who probably think FW players are nubs. Which lowers your perceived threat of me, meaning I start the fight with the advantage.
Civ Kado
State War Academy
Caldari State
#89 - 2015-08-05 00:06:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Civ Kado
Honestly, to me the game is being sucked out of its fun. I'm realizing that a lot of activities are just tedium. Maybe it's the mechanics, maybe the people, maybe its that the isk grind is a soulless endeavor best left at a bot which in turn just makes me not want to pvp. all I know is that the new sov system kinda made me realize that I'm close to unsubbing, but first I wanna ride this out for a month or two and see what happens.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#90 - 2015-08-05 01:25:00 UTC
didnt fail enough in the other thread backhawk?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#91 - 2015-08-05 02:59:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
F%^$ some pop corn, I'm eating steak for this one. And maybe some shrimp.


Eh...I'll just stick with a pizza and cold beer. Steak and shrimp is more of a celebratory meal for me. This is more of a "movie night" occasion in my eyes.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Dean Wong
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2015-08-05 03:46:10 UTC
Question is, how did I manage to get to the fifth page?????? Shocked

Sorry I was lost on the way here, OP what was it you were trying to impose?
Dean Wong
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2015-08-05 03:51:30 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Aminari Talar wrote:
No,

Players like to advocate for extreme amounts of abusive, scams, and other crminal-like behavior.
The truth is that the majority of gamers out there dont have their morale compass broken like you, and your political body (and the one your political body comes from).

I'm advocating that we restore balance to the game, by pushing back the criminal abusive a degree, and helping spread out the population so we can see new inventive idea's like redfrog.

You on the other hand (and people like you) want more carebears to scam, kill, and abuse... and while i have my opinions about you and people like you, ultimately what is better for this game is that those "casual pve based players" are catered to over people like you... Because well they make up another 80% or more of the game then people like you do.

and i'd rather have a game full of carebears who know how to treat people and who feed ccp money, then having a bunch of people who are bent on the only objective they have... to destroy the game.


Oh god!!!
That guy is so right. Eve is right now "psychopathic wannabe pro-pvpers kill, grief, scam casual players online".

Edit: And he is also right about that: Eve actually has nothing for casual bros who do not want to pvp. So CCP really denies customers?!?! Why???

Cant tell if sarcasm or just whine, but ill give my statement anyway.

So.. you dont want to pvp in a pvp game, and that is somehow CCP's fault. That is some awesome logic right there. CCP created a game they wanted that is PvP orientated with "PvE" tidbits sprinkled in to create "professions". By doing these professions, you are still eligible to recieving a salvo of artillery from another player, just because they can.

If you dont like it, learn to fight back or leave. A simple concept really. There are plenty of games that cater to your PVE fanaticism, EVE caters to those that get more fun by strategizing against another player than a level 55 NPC wizard.


Translation: "But I am **** and want to kill targets that can´t shoot back in highsec"

Okay now think about it.
You won´t notice players who are staying out of eve because they don´t want to be forced to pvp.
Now if CCP gives these people a superhighsec you will still not notice them but CCP gets some income.
If CCP gets some income it is good for EVERY eve player.
Plain simple and really not argueable.

And no you can look at my kb I am no highsec bear. But apart from most eve palyers I am a social one and not happy about ganking bears or new players.
E.g I even reimibursed most people when I saw that I killed a new probably noobish toon.
Eve simply actually rewards tooooooo much being an antisocial badass and that is not good.

Edit: VEEEEEERY BRAVE posting with an npc corp alt.


WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!!!
WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Don't post insults unless you know who you are addressing.
ISD Buldath
#94 - 2015-08-05 04:23:13 UTC
Quote:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.


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