These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Sojourn: The Federation

Author
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#121 - 2015-12-11 00:21:01 UTC
Quote:
Arrangements are in place for Caldari Prime's joint administration. The guns there are silent. But I think this is going to be a long war.


They wont be silent for long , if the few remaining Gallente zones are not closed and handed over to Caldari administration, a process which does now seem to have stalled. Ishukone as the Caldari administrators of Caldari Prime have to be held accountable for the failure to bring about an end to the Gallente zones.

No Caldari patriot , is ever going to accept the joint administration of Caldari Prime with the Federation. With our blood sweat and tears we won back our home , never again will we give it up. This faustian pact Mens Reppola made with the Federation will have to come to an end.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#122 - 2015-12-11 01:35:36 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Caroline Grace wrote:
Have you enjoyed your stay with us, Ms. Jenneth? Where can I read a summary about it?


Oh now lets let them continue Mdm Grace.

Personally I never tire of listening to Caldari from the State droning on about democracy within our Federal Union.

You would think with so many expert’s sooner or later they would figure it out.


I know as much about Democracy as I know about Art. I don't know much at all, but I know what I like... ...and what I don't. Besides Aria is about as typical a Caldari from the State as Valentina was. I don't know if she found what she was looking for - by now I doubt she even really knows what she's looking for - but we recognise her as an individual spirit and accept that her ways are not the ways of The State.

If I was trying to score points here, I would point out that our position seems to be vastly different from that of certain people from The Empire and the Federation...
I can see how you misunderstood my comment within its context. It was a clumsy attempt to agree with Ms. Grace and had more to do with the comments of others than with Ms. Jenneth's efforts. Those I actually find insightful.

As to points, it would seem your.... position, self delusions aside, isn't so different after all.

But then undeserved assumptions of moral superiority is so quintessentially Caldari.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#123 - 2015-12-12 10:05:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
James Syagrius wrote:
But then undeserved assumptions of moral superiority is so quintessentially Caldari.


Oh dear Maker. Only a Garoun lordling could have delivered that accusation of smug superiority with any more smug superiority than it contains. I am amazed you didn't actually sprain a muscle in your face from sneering so hard when you wrote that, my friend! I've been out of Gallente space for far too long, I'd forgotten how amusing our cousins can be.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#124 - 2015-12-12 11:14:20 UTC
Why are you both playing pots and kettles suddenly...?

Everyone is smug and witty around there anyway...
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#125 - 2015-12-12 15:26:37 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
But then undeserved assumptions of moral superiority is so quintessentially Caldari.


Oh dear Maker. Only a Garoun lordling could have delivered that accusation of smug superiority with any more smug superiority than it contains. I am amazed you didn't actually sprain a muscle in your face from sneering so hard when you wrote that, my friend! I've been out of Gallente space for far too long, I'd forgotten how amusing our cousins can be.
Lordling! Well... I would never sneer at you Pieter.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#126 - 2015-12-12 15:29:40 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Why are you both playing pots and kettles suddenly...?

Everyone is smug and witty around there anyway...
Oh, don’t take us to seriously. I suspect Pieter enjoys our mutual jabs as much as I do. Then again….
Arrendis
TK Corp
#127 - 2015-12-12 17:11:46 UTC
To quote our inestimable Dear Leader...

The Smug Must Flow.™
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#128 - 2015-12-12 23:28:41 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Why are you both playing pots and kettles suddenly...?

Everyone is smug and witty around there anyway...
Oh, don’t take us to seriously. I suspect Pieter enjoys our mutual jabs as much as I do. Then again….


James, you know that I do.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#129 - 2015-12-18 08:50:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Entry Eight: Just a Person

I said before that it took the Gallente to make a Caldari of me. Looking back, that wasn't quite accurate.

Visiting the Federation was going to be a problem for me, one way or another. The only question was how. The way is ... I guess, an unexpected variation on an expected theme. Caldari tend to go on about the corrosive effects of Federal culture as though it were some sort of acid. Mostly, they do this without being in personal, direct contact with those effects on a large scale, themselves-- this is something happening to someone else.

Well, now I know what it feels like to be that someone else. It's not something seductive or sinister. It's just ... an assumption that gets quietly made about you, everywhere you go, everywhere you look: that you're a person.

Just a person. That's all. You might be a Federal citizen; you might not. It doesn't make all that much difference to most of them.

For any other empire (and maybe the outer powers, too, and even some societies within the Federation), this is an absurd idea. Matari are divvied up by tribe (and maybe other things I don't properly understand); Caldari by corporation and caste; Amarr by feudal hierarchy.

In any of these societies, you're something else before you're a person.

The distinctions aren't meaningless; a feudal vassal's will, for example, is not fully her own. She has a duty to act as directed by a liege. A Caldari Navy marine has rights and duties that an Ishukone laborer does not-- and vice versa. And those rights and duties go before any rights or duties they might have as human beings; where those conflict, they're supposed to play their parts.

This isn't something unusual. It's pervasive. It's mundane. ... Just the way that the assumption in the Federation is: hello, fellow person.

That's what's corrosive.

People with a really strong sense of identity might not be affected much. The Jin Mei still have their own castes, after all, and there are still the Raata Caldari, who apparently maintain a culture more similar to original Caldari practices than those who live in the State.

Those whose identity is malleable, though ... it could make a big difference, especially over time.

I've got a perception that Gallente capsuleers are mostly, well, respectfully, a little "off," at a much higher rate than the rest of us. This manifests in a lot of different ways, and I'm not really sure of it or anything, but it seems like Gallentean capsuleers tend strongly to either noisy self-righteousness or eccentricity.

I think ... maybe it's because they're being exposed to this blood-soaked business of ours basically unshielded. There's not a lot of existing structure to support them, so they're stuck trying to match more or less naked moral impulse up against the realities of living as a frequently-used weapon of mass destruction (or instrument for the supply of same).

Some decide that they're standing for the cause of freedom and justice, and all several thousand people on that hostile battleship were (somehow) bad people and deserved to die. Others shield themselves in some form of duty, or just don't think about it much. Only, that last strategy isn't maybe very sustainable, so a lot of them ... crack.

Maybe. Like I said, it's more an impression than anything solid.

If it's true, well, having fled the Federation to try and recover my equilibrium, I can really relate.

I've built my own identity and ethics on an Achur tradition of the wandering warrior-monk-- a seeker after wisdom, who's nevertheless martially skilled and willing to put those skills to use in the service of this cause or that, as the situation seems to warrant. It's a good structure for a rootless person such as myself; it serves both my eagerness to learn and my determination to be useful and still to serve in my intended role as a fighter.

So many resources have gone into creating a creature like me. If I can't fight-- why should I exist to begin with? What right do I have to so many resources others could put to as good or better use? That's what I thought.

I still more than kind of think that, but it didn't take the Gallente long to crack such a frail sense of purpose and of self. I'd come downstairs from my room to get a coffee, and the barista would chatter away to me about something like some bit of news or last night's Mindclash match, and I'd be thinking, "Do you have any idea how many people like you I've killed?" Then maybe I'd wander over to a table full of students bickering over politics, and they'd possibly give me a quick look over and have some questions, but they'd move on from that and I'd be just another audience member, or maybe participant, it didn't really matter to them.

It kind of got into my head: I was a person. Just a person. ... no special role, no special duties.

For people like us, that's a problem. Ordinarily, a person has no right or license to kill another. That's pretty basic to people being people. Even soldiers have to be trained to do it. To a large degree, I think things like duty and honor exist to create a psycho-sociological workaround-- to let people serve as guardians, or weapons, without breaking down into little quivering balls of doubt and guilt. That's even for soldiers with ordinary bodycounts.

For creatures like us ... it doesn't seem like those structures are something we can do without if we want to remain ... intact? Maybe this is one of those places "capsuleer dementia" comes from. As noted, the Gallentean capsuleers do seem to have methods, but I think I'll be seeing about getting my sense of purpose nicely resolidified before I make an extended return trip. I'm not ready to go retiring from this grim business of ours just yet.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#130 - 2015-12-18 10:38:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
I see what you mean with the gallente way threading with individuals like 'persons' before anything else. After all, it stems directly from their inherent values.

However, while theoretically the status of any other person or citizen should not make much difference to their eyes, here we start touching to the roots of the affliction of their society as a whole: how can a society be founded upon values of equal rights, liberty and freedom, and yet show so many contrasts and individual status? How can an egalitarian society provide so many injustices? So many veiled castes?

The main difference with the Gallente is that they still are deeply ingrained with that sense of equality that they will instinctively revolt against such inconsistencies, where said inconsistencies and castes are widely accepted and embraced in all other empires, besides a few disgruntled voices. There is a huge part of the population that actually lives bitter lives due to that very fact, perfectly knowing that their rights are not going in accordance with what they were promised since their birth.

Somehow, here lies the main paradox of the gallente society: equality is put on a pedestal, but so is individual freedom. Individual freedom means that some will always perform better than others. In spite of the federal social welfare and sociocrat programs, there certainly is a culture of the survival of the fittest there. Eventually, it is a society where all are born unequally, whereas the system offers them equality through welfare and law. Alpha city children have a way higher chance of performing to their apex than omega city children.

It is true, however, that there has always been a certain blissful slumber in the federal culture, where comfort and well being often turn most gallente, in my opinion, into naturally born optimists, open to the individuality of their peers as persons before anything else.
Skyweir Kinnison
Doomheim
#131 - 2015-12-18 11:42:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Skyweir Kinnison
Lady Farel, your analysis is based on an incorrect premise.

Equality in the Federation means equality of opportunity and equality of rights. It does not mean a 'promise' that everyone will have the same status or possessions. It means each person may achieve or shape their destiny by means of their gifts - which are all individual and unique.

It's proven impossible to explain to those brought up in a hierarchical society, and even more so to those who consider society to be more important than the individual. In the same manner, one supposes, as I cannot conceive of otherwise apparently moral people condoning slavery based on race.

Captain Jenneth, your reflections are interesting but I do wonder about the loathing so prevalent in your view of capsuleers. Many have high and noble motives. Many more perhaps, are base but this does not invalidate the devoted. And whilst our lives may be very different for a spell from the barista or farm-worker, we make a grave mistake if we think ourselves different from them. Capsules are wont to think of themselves as 'distinct' - even trans-human - but more and more are retiring back to 'normal' life. One day, we'll be superseded by something more efficient (a drone variant, no doubt) and we'll have our charmed lives turned off.

Knowing that we have stood for something will be important for many in that twilight.

Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.

Tamiroth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#132 - 2015-12-18 12:20:13 UTC
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:
Knowing that we have stood for something will be important for many in that twilight.
Yes.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#133 - 2015-12-18 18:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:
Captain Jenneth, your reflections are interesting but I do wonder about the loathing so prevalent in your view of capsuleers. Many have high and noble motives. Many more perhaps, are base but this does not invalidate the devoted. And whilst our lives may be very different for a spell from the barista or farm-worker, we make a grave mistake if we think ourselves different from them. Capsules are wont to think of themselves as 'distinct' - even trans-human - but more and more are retiring back to 'normal' life. One day, we'll be superseded by something more efficient (a drone variant, no doubt) and we'll have our charmed lives turned off.

Knowing that we have stood for something will be important for many in that twilight.


Respectfully, Mr. Kinnison, you may misunderstand a little. I don't see capsuleers as "different," particularly; that was my antecedent's way of looking at it.

I don't hate us. But we are, almost every last one of us, killers. Those of us who don't kill are mostly arms merchants or manufacturers supplying those who do. And we typically become extremely wealthy because of it.

Those are facts. They're objectively true. The nobility of a motive, though, is subjective.

I'm interested, of course, in your sense-- a Gallentean sense-- of what makes motives noble, or not, but I'll admit to being skeptical about this subject.

There seems to be a lot of overlap between Amarrian and Gallentean ways of looking at what makes a righteous killer. I've met what your societies would probably agree were bad people-- came just shy of being shot by them, even. There's a certain Amarrian Templar I owe my life to, or at least my continuity of experience.

The people Thal Vadam killed that day were "bad" or "base," while his motives were "noble" (right down to the damsel in distress, a role I really don't care to repeat). I think, though, that if it had ended differently his splattered viscera, or mine, would have smelled a lot like theirs did.

I don't really care about moral judgments, Mr. Kinnison-- mostly, I try to avoid making them. I recognize some things as really unacceptable, but ... that's a gut reaction, really. I don't pretend it's a rational thing. Mostly I just want to find out why people are who they are, before I start judging them for it.

But the natural stance of non-judgment is inaction, so, in terms of basic, intuitive morality, my own actions are questionable at best. Achur culture offers a way to validate all that, to live with myself while still being who I am and playing my part. The Amarrian culture also has a tradition of religious warriors, so we kind of understand each other even if they find my relativism disturbing.

Your culture, though, at least the forms I've seen so far, doesn't validate it at all, and it seems my sense of self is frail enough for that to really be a problem. It's hard for me to maintain my beliefs in the face of a situation that undercuts them at every turn.

I guess I hadn't realized how much weight I was placing on an identity I might not be able to maintain. At this point, I'm not sure I really have a choice about my own path: I can either commit, or watch myself go to pieces.

These sorts of questions drove my predecessor into some really dark places. I'm trying not to follow her.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#134 - 2015-12-18 19:21:13 UTC
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:
Lady Farel, your analysis is based on an incorrect premise.

Equality in the Federation means equality of opportunity and equality of rights. It does not mean a 'promise' that everyone will have the same status or possessions. It means each person may achieve or shape their destiny by means of their gifts - which are all individual and unique.

It's proven impossible to explain to those brought up in a hierarchical society, and even more so to those who consider society to be more important than the individual. In the same manner, one supposes, as I cannot conceive of otherwise apparently moral people condoning slavery based on race.


Ah.. isn't it what I was trying to tell? I never tried to say that the society ever tried, or wished to enforce equality.

But a disillusioned citizen born in any omega city will most of the time question the system that promises an equality of opportunities.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#135 - 2015-12-18 19:45:45 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:
Lady Farel, your analysis is based on an incorrect premise.

Equality in the Federation means equality of opportunity and equality of rights. It does not mean a 'promise' that everyone will have the same status or possessions. It means each person may achieve or shape their destiny by means of their gifts - which are all individual and unique.

It's proven impossible to explain to those brought up in a hierarchical society, and even more so to those who consider society to be more important than the individual. In the same manner, one supposes, as I cannot conceive of otherwise apparently moral people condoning slavery based on race.


Ah.. isn't it what I was trying to tell? I never tried to say that the society ever tried, or wished to enforce equality.

But a disillusioned citizen born in any omega city will most of the time question the system that promises an equality of opportunities.

Having been born in one of those "Omega cities" I can say that this isn't necessarily true. I was brought up to understand that equality of opportunity means I have the right to the same level achievement as anyone else. I was also brought up to understand that my starting point means I was going to have to work harder to achieve it. Their was no disillusionment involved because no illusion was ever established.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#136 - 2015-12-18 23:01:50 UTC
Err.. Then maybe we are not using the right words and understanding each other I guess.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#137 - 2015-12-19 02:08:28 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Err.. Then maybe we are not using the right words and understanding each other I guess.


Perhaps not Ms Farel, but many of us understand the point you are trying to make.

Ms. Jenneth, an interesting and insightful analysis of Galletean culture.

It is always enjoyable to see one’s self reflected through the eyes of others.

We... hope you visit again soon.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#138 - 2015-12-19 08:05:40 UTC
Entry Nine: Detente

The most basic purpose of civilization is to limit the use of violence.

Violence is a tool, a potent one. It's a means of acquiring things and controlling people. It's a sort of standard element of the human experience, an element of human psychology so basic that it's hard to find a piece of fiction that omits it completely.

It's also theoretically available to nearly everyone. Some people are better situated to use it, but almost everyone has some potential for it, and absolutely everyone's vulnerable to it. Whether in an honorable test of strength and skill, a pellet of poison in a cup, a mugger with a bolt pistol, or a strong husband who's a mean drunk, we all face the possibility of death by violence.

It's something we pretty much all agree, as permanent or temporary members of any society, not to do to each other.

Even in a place where few really fundamental rules exist, this is a persistent one. Actually, in some ways it's maybe stronger in the Federation than in a lot of other places.

In a certain settlement in Crielere, there are two churches at opposite corners of a crossroad. One is Amarrian; the other is Sani. Both are legal.

There's a sort of war going on there, but it's a war fought with pamphlets and slogans. You can't really go past without being proselytized at. I'm not sure which was there first; they both claim to have been, though not always as straightforward places of worship.

In the Empire, this wouldn't be a thing. In Delve, this also wouldn't be a thing. It's a thing in the Federation, though I'm sure it hasn't always just stopped at dueling pamphlets, and the reason it's a thing is because nobody's allowed to get to literal daggers and laser pistols drawn.

Because the Federation's officially agnostic about both politics and religion, nobody at all has the privilege of enforcing their own ideas on other people. There's no such thing as an illegal state of mind in the Federation. You can be for whatever you like; you can worship whatever you like; you can wish agonizing death on people to your heart's content. You can sympathize with the Sani or the Angels or the Guristas or the U-Nats (though the Templis might be pushing it). It doesn't really matter how awful your ideas are unless you go and try to do something about it.

The basic rule seems to be that you can build what community you please, but ix-nay on violence against other groups or individuals. It's like the whole civilization is one of those "neutral ground" establishments where people from anywhere can come as long as they respect the rules and don't try to harm each other or the staff.

This might help to explain why sometimes it doesn't quite work out, though. The Federation's highly tolerant of all sorts of people. But if one group gains enough support to overwhelm the presumption against violence....

... well. Bad things. That's sort of a violation of the Federation's promise of safety and tolerance, if it happens, though. You'll hear Federals defending the events that started the Great War, but they often kind of seem embarrassed about it even if they mostly blame the Caldari.

Maybe that sense of embarrassment is what keeps the whole thing stable past where Caldari often feel it has any reason to be. The Federal system isn't perfect, and mostly they're quick to admit it, but they also aspire to live up to their society's promises. Slipping into fascism, even briefly, is a pretty fundamental violation of that promise.

I guess, maybe the awareness of that is what keeps it from happening more often, or for long.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2015-12-19 09:05:32 UTC
Hah! War of the Pamphleteers? This happens all the time in Federation space, and not just physical space either. I wake up to use the Galnet to find banners and pop ups and spam mails that are basically virtual pamphlets, every time I am in Fed space.

In a place where virtually every faction and party is trying to make their views and ideas that of the majority's, this is the norm. It's a noisy place in here.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#140 - 2015-12-19 23:30:26 UTC
It is often the case that people confuse tolerance with acceptance.

Within our Federal Union we are obliged to be tolerant of customs, opinions, and beliefs that differ from our own.

Many however mistakenly view this expressed tolerance as implied acceptance.

This would be a mistake.