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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Sojourn: The Federation

Author
Zavier Dessaultnier
Doomheim
#101 - 2015-10-21 01:17:22 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Zavier Dessaultnier wrote:

The ideal was probably that Tribal representatives would be elected and the Parliament would function de facto as a Tribal polity. The reality however I think was that parliamentary democracy proved ineffective in the case of the Minmatar for a variety of reasons.

Sir, I strongly disagree with using word "ideal" in a proposition where representatives would be elected. That makes the system to act as a form of democracy, which is archaic and is one of the lest efficient management systems. Any democracy system in the end can be proven ineffective disregarding to the society it was applied to, which is based on a definition and basic principles of democratic approaches. Efficient and proper manager should be chosen to its position according to their education, training and experience, not by outsourcing the decision to unrelated persons, who will be way less experienced or educated.

The only acceptable way for elections to be efficient is when a manager or a delegate is voted on by his higher-ups (for example, board of directors), but not subordinates (example, workers, who have no idea how the management works).


I would say democracy as a system of governance always has to be considered in context of its intended purpose, and indeed, I would agree it is not ideal in every situation of human social and cultural life. Its function in the Federation at the District Parliamentary and sub-district Senate level works solely as an institutional and political check along with other aspects of the Further Federation Act such as the establishment of the Executive and Judicial branches of the Federation.

If one considers the nature of the Executive and Judicial branches then I would say they exist as acknowledgement that unilateral political actions are necessary and not everyone has the experience and legal background to serve as a Supreme Court judge which is why they are appointed directly.

Federal agencies such as FedAdmin, FedPol, and FedNav are inherently undemocratic because as you said, efficiency and proper management of an organization whether a civil bureaucracy or a military requires a meritocratic structure and hierarchy where people are selected and promoted to their positions based on their education, training, and experience. This is also true in private corporate entities.

So no, democracy is not always an ideal in and of itself, it is only ideal insofar as it is able to achieve a specific purpose. In fact as a political system on its own without strong institutions able to operate separately it can be disastrous. One only needs to remember the destructive effects that a radical progressive like Foiritain had upon the Federation in trying to, "Strengthen Democracy." His budget cuts to Federal agencies, attempts to override the Senate and Judiciary, use of the media in appeals to populism and sensationalism all led to the political dysfunctions and instability of a man trying to establish himself a tyrant over an unruly and violent mob he alone controlled. A nature so eloquently displayed when he burned Eturrer alive without trial just to appease bloodthirsty masses.

That is just one of the many real dangers of democracy when permitted to go too far. Without laws, without strong institutions, without culture, without the greater good of society then humans permitted individual freedom to its maximum extent all too often regress into the most venal and vile nature of ideological liberalism.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#102 - 2015-10-21 02:47:24 UTC
Zavier Dessaultnier wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Zavier Dessaultnier wrote:

The ideal was probably that Tribal representatives would be elected and the Parliament would function de facto as a Tribal polity. The reality however I think was that parliamentary democracy proved ineffective in the case of the Minmatar for a variety of reasons.

Sir, I strongly disagree with using word "ideal" in a proposition where representatives would be elected. That makes the system to act as a form of democracy, which is archaic and is one of the lest efficient management systems. Any democracy system in the end can be proven ineffective disregarding to the society it was applied to, which is based on a definition and basic principles of democratic approaches. Efficient and proper manager should be chosen to its position according to their education, training and experience, not by outsourcing the decision to unrelated persons, who will be way less experienced or educated.

The only acceptable way for elections to be efficient is when a manager or a delegate is voted on by his higher-ups (for example, board of directors), but not subordinates (example, workers, who have no idea how the management works).


I would say democracy as a system of governance always has to be considered in context of its intended purpose, and indeed, I would agree it is not ideal in every situation of human social and cultural life. Its function in the Federation at the District Parliamentary and sub-district Senate level works solely as an institutional and political check along with other aspects of the Further Federation Act such as the establishment of the Executive and Judicial branches of the Federation.

If one considers the nature of the Executive and Judicial branches then I would say they exist as acknowledgement that unilateral political actions are necessary and not everyone has the experience and legal background to serve as a Supreme Court judge which is why they are appointed directly.

Federal agencies such as FedAdmin, FedPol, and FedNav are inherently undemocratic because as you said, efficiency and proper management of an organization whether a civil bureaucracy or a military requires a meritocratic structure and hierarchy where people are selected and promoted to their positions based on their education, training, and experience. This is also true in private corporate entities.

So no, democracy is not always an ideal in and of itself, it is only ideal insofar as it is able to achieve a specific purpose. In fact as a political system on its own without strong institutions able to operate separately it can be disastrous. One only needs to remember the destructive effects that a radical progressive like Foiritain had upon the Federation in trying to, "Strengthen Democracy." His budget cuts to Federal agencies, attempts to override the Senate and Judiciary, use of the media in appeals to populism and sensationalism all led to the political dysfunctions and instability of a man trying to establish himself a tyrant over an unruly and violent mob he alone controlled. A nature so eloquently displayed when he burned Eturrer alive without trial just to appease bloodthirsty masses.

That is just one of the many real dangers of democracy when permitted to go too far. Without laws, without strong institutions, without culture, without the greater good of society then humans permitted individual freedom to its maximum extent all too often regress into the most venal and vile nature of ideological liberalism.

Oooo, that was good. I like you.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#103 - 2015-10-21 07:38:57 UTC
Zavier Dessaultnier wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Zavier Dessaultnier wrote:

The ideal was probably that Tribal representatives would be elected and the Parliament would function de facto as a Tribal polity. The reality however I think was that parliamentary democracy proved ineffective in the case of the Minmatar for a variety of reasons.

Sir, I strongly disagree with using word "ideal" in a proposition where representatives would be elected. That makes the system to act as a form of democracy, which is archaic and is one of the lest efficient management systems. Any democracy system in the end can be proven ineffective disregarding to the society it was applied to, which is based on a definition and basic principles of democratic approaches. Efficient and proper manager should be chosen to its position according to their education, training and experience, not by outsourcing the decision to unrelated persons, who will be way less experienced or educated.

The only acceptable way for elections to be efficient is when a manager or a delegate is voted on by his higher-ups (for example, board of directors), but not subordinates (example, workers, who have no idea how the management works).


I would say democracy as a system of governance always has to be considered in context of its intended purpose, and indeed, I would agree it is not ideal in every situation of human social and cultural life. Its function in the Federation at the District Parliamentary and sub-district Senate level works solely as an institutional and political check along with other aspects of the Further Federation Act such as the establishment of the Executive and Judicial branches of the Federation.

If one considers the nature of the Executive and Judicial branches then I would say they exist as acknowledgement that unilateral political actions are necessary and not everyone has the experience and legal background to serve as a Supreme Court judge which is why they are appointed directly.

Federal agencies such as FedAdmin, FedPol, and FedNav are inherently undemocratic because as you said, efficiency and proper management of an organization whether a civil bureaucracy or a military requires a meritocratic structure and hierarchy where people are selected and promoted to their positions based on their education, training, and experience. This is also true in private corporate entities.

So no, democracy is not always an ideal in and of itself, it is only ideal insofar as it is able to achieve a specific purpose. In fact as a political system on its own without strong institutions able to operate separately it can be disastrous. One only needs to remember the destructive effects that a radical progressive like Foiritain had upon the Federation in trying to, "Strengthen Democracy." His budget cuts to Federal agencies, attempts to override the Senate and Judiciary, use of the media in appeals to populism and sensationalism all led to the political dysfunctions and instability of a man trying to establish himself a tyrant over an unruly and violent mob he alone controlled. A nature so eloquently displayed when he burned Eturrer alive without trial just to appease bloodthirsty masses.

That is just one of the many real dangers of democracy when permitted to go too far. Without laws, without strong institutions, without culture, without the greater good of society then humans permitted individual freedom to its maximum extent all too often regress into the most venal and vile nature of ideological liberalism.

I think yet the best argument against democracy would be a talk with an average voter. And turns of speech "democracy is not always an ideal" shouldn't be used. Words should be rearranged in form of "democracy is always not an ideal". Instead of discussing it pointing on "dangers", we should look instead on reality, on its whole basis, that leads to management system, where decisions are made by mediocre people, whose opinions shouldn't be taken into consideration.

And this is because no people were born equal. No people were raised equal. Some people have qualities to participate in management, and others must be barred from it.

But I would prefer to avoid discussion in the mood of whether democracy is good or bad in the Federation for federal citizens, for gallentes. Because it is the problem of gallentes, not of everyone. If gallente want to live in democracy, if they want to sink into this inefficient, archaic, incompetent, and, if you wish - dangerous system, it is not our business. Our lives don't depend on what they choose. Our incomes don't depend on their management system. If they want to live in democracy - their incomes will be crap, not ours. And it will be their choice, not ours. We shouldn't tell them what to do with their lives.

The problem comes when the gallente don't just use it, but try to push it into others. They try to sell, advertise their democracy, and if they fail - they try to enforce it on others with weapons in hands.

And this is why we should discuss democracy itself, without attachment to Federation and Federal problems. We should study this phenomenon and show that it is actually terrible system, that can't be ideal solution for any possible given problem. We must educate citizens and teach them to think for themselves to fight axiomatic gallente propaganda. We must show, that our management systems are way more efficient, and that with our systems we will stay stronger that gallenteans, we won't fall and won't let them degrade us to their level.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#104 - 2015-10-21 13:28:45 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
where decisions are made by mediocre people, whose opinions shouldn't be taken into consideration.

Well, I guess this means that your opinion on the matter is moot. Good day.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#105 - 2015-10-21 15:37:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
where decisions are made by mediocre people, whose opinions shouldn't be taken into consideration.

Well, I guess this means that your opinion on the matter is moot. Good day.

Well ... it's a traditional, literally elitist, argument against democracy, though. Most people really aren't qualified to run an interstellar empire, so why should they be allowed to?

It's not a point that doesn't have any teeth, either. Even leaving what happened to Eturrer aside, the last time the Caldari vox populi had a major say in State politics, it ushered in Tibus Heth.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#106 - 2015-10-21 16:57:13 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
where decisions are made by mediocre people, whose opinions shouldn't be taken into consideration.

Well, I guess this means that your opinion on the matter is moot. Good day.

My competence and value of opinion is to be decided by merited people, not incapable gallentean loudmouths like Osyn.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#107 - 2015-10-21 17:07:41 UTC
It's tempting to blame Democracy for the elevation of Tibus Heth - but I think that's dangerously simplifying matters. As the Corporate Executives recover from the period of his Executor-ship I'm increasingly seeing a push to demonise the man as an abberant political figure who sprung out of nowhere and, with dubious backing and assistance, stole power in the State.

That point of view ignores the fact that the Executives were woefully corrupt and almost completely detached from the beliefs and struggles of the common Caldari citizen. They strayed from the path of Heiian and it took Heth to put us all back on track.

Obviously the latter part of his term as Executor was studded with awful decisions, questionable morals and a complete break with tradition.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#108 - 2015-10-21 17:08:31 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Well ... it's a traditional, literally elitist, argument against democracy, though. Most people really aren't qualified to run an interstellar empire, so why should they be allowed to?

It's not a point that doesn't have any teeth, either. Even leaving what happened to Eturrer aside, the last time the Caldari vox populi had a major say in State politics, it ushered in Tibus Heth.

I think you put a wrong word here, not "ushered", of course. Because Tibus Heth came into power because of his merits, not "vox populi", and he was appointed as Executor by Megacorporate CEOs, not workers and general Caldari population, for whom he was working.

What happened because of "vox populi" was fall of him into disgrace. Some idiots were claiming it was Tibus Heth's fault in death of Adm. Yanala, while it was simply inevitable and both Executor Heth and Adm. Yanala acted like real Caldari, following what their honor was telling them to do.

I am pretty sure that these anti-Heth riots were caused by gallentean propagandists, since those, who understand Caldari traditions and values would never speak against Tibus Heth because of this situation. It deeply saddens me Tibus Heth has allowed such "vox populi" to spread in the State and didn't cut it out in its root like a strong Caldari manager should, by any means necessary.

On other hand, I don't understand Tibus Heth's actions, or more like, inaction, during his last years at all. He didn't retaliate immediately after fall of Shiigeru. He simply objected against Mens Reppola decision instead of arresting him for treason. He didn't stop that farce and allowed traitor Reppola to put a shame on all Caldari. And of course he didn't do anything to fight opinions about "Yanala murder" and didn't control the crowd to cease such disgrace, shown by regular workers. He didn't even acted to stop such outrageous lies as calling him a terrorist.

This all saddens me. At least, he has died fighting Sansha as a hero. He came as a hero, and he went away as a hero. And I miss him a lot.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#109 - 2015-10-21 17:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It's tempting to blame Democracy for the elevation of Tibus Heth - but I think that's dangerously simplifying matters. As the Corporate Executives recover from the period of his Executor-ship I'm increasingly seeing a push to demonise the man as an abberant political figure who sprung out of nowhere and, with dubious backing and assistance, stole power in the State.

That point of view ignores the fact that the Executives were woefully corrupt and almost completely detached from the beliefs and struggles of the common Caldari citizen. They strayed from the path of Heiian and it took Heth to put us all back on track.

Obviously the latter part of his term as Executor was studded with awful decisions, questionable morals and a complete break with tradition.


Respectfully, Pieter, it's not democracy I'm pointing to, at least not directly. Admittedly, I haven't done a lot of research on this personally; it's part of my antecedent's "knowledge" base, but....

The way my ... um, inherited knowledge lays it out goes like this:

The Gallente Federation, during the long period of relative peace before the start of the Pendulum War, had a quiet program of social subversion running in the Caldari State. This was accomplished mostly through peaceful means-- intentionally producing holoflicks and other media that would carry messages subversive of Caldari community-mindedness.

In fairness, that probably would have been an effect of Gallentean cultural exchange, regardless. Their values tend to kind of permeate their work. But what I "remember" says that this was even moreso-- that it was a focused, intentional campaign that was intended, in time, to undercut traditional Caldari cultural norms. The end game would be a popular uprising leading to liberal democracy.

It didn't quite play that way. See, the only people who could afford the Gallentean cultural imports in quantities large enough to have an effect were the Caldari elite, the executive and chief executive classes. Thus, they became more individualistic and began to believe that they were living and working for themselves and the people they cared about, and not for the State or the Caldari people. Hence the abuses.

Thus, the populist revolt, when it came, was from, as you say, a place of Heiian. Only, it was Heiian in the fairly raw, rough, unnuanced and not especially sophisticated form one would expect from the laborer caste.

Heth wasn't a product of democracy; he was a product of a populist backlash, which is a very different creature. He did reflect its values, hence the reforms, but he also reflected its lack of sophistication.

He was at once a reflection of the Caldari people's need for leaders that represented their values, and also the very Caldari principle that the lower castes are as they are because they are not qualified to lead. In this way, his rise and fall, taken together, represent an affirmation of both the meritocracy and the duty of those above to work for the sake of and in a way that reflects the beliefs of those below.

His rise affirmed Heiian as the spirit of the State. His fall affirmed the wisdom of the caste hierarchy.

My predecessor's "knowledge" labeled him a necessary correction, but predicted that history would use him up and cast him aside. I don't think she was wrong about that.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#110 - 2015-10-21 17:46:10 UTC
I don't think she was wrong, either. Heth seemed to believe that he had been chosen as a unique individual for a special purpose - at the end he thought that HE was more important than the forces that had raised him up.

In the end it bankrupted his honour, drove him from power and led to him perishing in a minor fleet action in an unremarkable part of the cosmos.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#111 - 2015-10-21 17:54:06 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I don't think she was wrong, either. Heth seemed to believe that he had been chosen as a unique individual for a special purpose - at the end he thought that HE was more important than the forces that had raised him up.

In the end it bankrupted his honour, drove him from power and led to him perishing in a minor fleet action in an unremarkable part of the cosmos.


I admit I'm pretty fuzzy on the details of his fall. It happened while I was "asleep," so my inherited knowledge doesn't cover it.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#112 - 2015-10-21 21:05:54 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I don't think she was wrong, either. Heth seemed to believe that he had been chosen as a unique individual for a special purpose - at the end he thought that HE was more important than the forces that had raised him up.

With all due respect, it is an UTTER BULLSHIT on the level of stinky gallente propaganda.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Zavier Dessaultnier
Doomheim
#113 - 2015-10-22 14:49:15 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

And this is why we should discuss democracy itself, without attachment to Federation and Federal problems. We should study this phenomenon and show that it is actually terrible system, that can't be ideal solution for any possible given problem. We must educate citizens and teach them to think for themselves to fight axiomatic gallente propaganda. We must show, that our management systems are way more efficient, and that with our systems we will stay stronger that gallenteans, we won't fall and won't let them degrade us to their level.


Ms. Kim,

I would be quite interested in your elaboration on democracy and the threat of axiomatic Gallente propaganda.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#114 - 2015-10-23 07:53:05 UTC
As for threat of axiomatic Gallente propaganda, I think I have written rather good about it in this discussion earlier: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6015216#post6015216
As for elaboration on democracy, we have been discussing it in details above.
Could you please ask more direct questions?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#115 - 2015-10-25 23:13:15 UTC
So-- to be clear, what with me being back in the Empire, this isn't actually over.

It's more turning into a kind of mid to long-term project.
Zavier Dessaultnier
Doomheim
#116 - 2015-10-26 10:07:08 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
As for threat of axiomatic Gallente propaganda, I think I have written rather good about it in this discussion earlier: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6015216#post6015216
As for elaboration on democracy, we have been discussing it in details above.
Could you please ask more direct questions?


Thank you Ms. Kim, I was seeking an elaboration on your thoughts and you have provided it. I would say there is nothing particularly surprising in its content given the traditional Caldari cultural narrative and bias in which the State defines itself vis-a-vis the Federation.

As to whether or not the Federation as a whole is interested in spreading democracy to the Caldari, I would have to personally disagree on that point.

I see no benefit for the Federation in changing a contentious people and society who are so focused on who is and isn't Caldari, who is and isn't a traitor of the day, that they remain completely oblivious to their own institutional and societal flaws.

For a connoisseur of Schadenfreude like myself, it would remove my delight in watching an opponent who destroys themselves of their own initiative and accord.
Caroline Grace
Retrostellar Boulevard
#117 - 2015-12-09 11:07:18 UTC
Have you enjoyed your stay with us, Ms. Jenneth? Where can I read a summary about it?

I'm Caroline Grace, and this is my favorite musical on the Citadel.

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#118 - 2015-12-10 00:54:07 UTC
Caroline Grace wrote:
Have you enjoyed your stay with us, Ms. Jenneth? Where can I read a summary about it?


Oh now lets let them continue Mdm Grace.

Personally I never tire of listening to Caldari from the State droning on about democracy within our Federal Union.

You would think with so many expert’s sooner or later they would figure it out.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#119 - 2015-12-10 02:10:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Well ... I have left this a little long, I guess.


Entry Seven: "Home"

Caldari Prime is a planet I really wanted to visit, partly for the sake of seeing how the Gallente and Caldari there get on. Actually visiting, as it turned out, was a really good illustration of why Gallente and Caldari in a whole lot of places do not get on.

Not well, anyway.

As planets go, Caldari Prime's kind of a snowball, and our visit to Arcurio was appropriately snowy. There was a lot we saw, but really I think the most educational things I learned were from my companions.

I had two on this trip, one of Civire heritage, the other Gallente. It's not like they fought all the time or anything; actually, they didn't argue at all, but their reactions to things were so very different. I know it's unwise to take two people's reactions as representative of entire cultures, but the two differed in such reliable ways that it's kind of hard not to.

Caldari Prime through Gallentean eyes was a place with a fascinating indigenous flora and fauna, architecture and culture (and kind of chilly weather) and history-- lots and lots of history. It's a place where Caldari and Gallente live side by side, where even Gallentean-administrated areas demonstrate a respectful regard for their Caldari neighbors. The focus is on the now, but the past is to be treated respectfully.

Through Civire eyes, the unifying theme of the world the Caldari call "Home" is loss, and not a distant loss, but current, immediate, and ongoing. To the Caldari, the history the Gallente make such efforts to respect isn't over. It's not gone; it's present, here, right now. The Gallente are bleeding away the Caldari identity from the world that created that identity at this very moment. It's not possible for a thief to steal something sacred respectfully enough. It's not possible for a murderer's knife to show his victim enough respect. Caldari Prime is a wound in what it is to be Caldari. And with every brightly-colored scarf, every bit of fusion architecture, every Gallentean species brought to the Arcurio arboretum, the wound bleeds.

Arrangements are in place for Caldari Prime's joint administration. The guns there are silent. But I think this is going to be a long war.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#120 - 2015-12-10 05:11:03 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Caroline Grace wrote:
Have you enjoyed your stay with us, Ms. Jenneth? Where can I read a summary about it?


Oh now lets let them continue Mdm Grace.

Personally I never tire of listening to Caldari from the State droning on about democracy within our Federal Union.

You would think with so many expert’s sooner or later they would figure it out.


I know as much about Democracy as I know about Art. I don't know much at all, but I know what I like... ...and what I don't. Besides Aria is about as typical a Caldari from the State as Valentina was. I don't know if she found what she was looking for - by now I doubt she even really knows what she's looking for - but we recognise her as an individual spirit and accept that her ways are not the ways of The State.

If I was trying to score points here, I would point out that our position seems to be vastly different from that of certain people from The Empire and the Federation...

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.