These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Sojourn: The Federation

Author
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2015-08-21 10:42:36 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
But you will have to face those ingrained prejudices sooner or later in that sojourn, right...?


Every place has ingrained prejudices, hell the planetsiders have prejudice against each other over the most stupid things. You have to set that aside and look at the ideals and the cultural backgrounds that form a society to truly appreciate it. Acknowledge but don't dwell on the bad things, absorb and enjoy the good. No state is perfect in my view, each has it's problems but also each has such delights to show you. You simply need to be open enough to look.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2015-08-21 16:13:38 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
But you will have to face those ingrained prejudices sooner or later in that sojourn, right...?


Here's the problem, suuolo: just because it's a prejudice doesn't quite make it wrong. It just means you can't approach it fairly, so it's gets really hard to tell whether what you're seeing is really there.

My antecedent was not a stupid or ignorant person. She went looking for insight, like I do; she just didn't go as far as I do in trying to find it. There are places and ideas she wouldn't expose herself to because she felt she already knew what she needed to about them.

The Amarr scared her. She thought they'd one day inevitably try to destroy her culture and faith. I'm not so attached to those things, so I could go where she couldn't.

As it turned out, she was probably half right: the Amarr really do feel that all other religions have to go. They're a little more considerate about culture than I had assumed, though.

That was the easy part. First steps.

This is the hard bit.

The Gallente were the enemy. Anathema. Antithetical to everything she believed.

She was fair-minded (or relativist) enough to concede that the Gallente way of life seemed to be fine for the Gallente, but she regarded them as an absolute menace to everybody else, at least on par with the Amarr and far more immediate because not being at war doesn't slow them down.

They're actually at their most dangerous when they can exercise "soft power." Quafe? Holoflicks? About a billion instances of humanitarian aid?

These aren't ideas that I'll test, much less defeat, by facing them head on. There's not one argument that can be made that won't just reinforce them. If it's a bad argument, it's a bad argument. If it's a good argument, it's an example of the Gallente being the Gallente.

Hearing it from the Gallente won't do anything. I don't think they lie or anything, but their perceptions are like the Amarr-- they see the world in their own way. I can't trust their perceptions.

What'll help is counter evidence. So, I'll visit the Raata. Jin-Mei territory. Achur monasteries. Places steeped in structure and tradition.

Maybe I'll be able to see whether long-term contact with a free society really allows valuable qualities to endure.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2015-08-21 17:17:31 UTC
I find that the best way of overcoming one's ingrained prejudices is to sit down one on one with Federation Loyalists. As often as you find yourself rolling your eyes and gritting your teeth, you tend to find that they are people, just like us.

I know this should be self-evident (no doubt there are people currently rollling their eyes and gritting their teeth at me!) but fifteen year old me, just coming out of the creche and entering the labour-force would have given serious thought to the hypothesis that the Gallente were an entirely different, non-human, species.

It takes time to break down these walls. Time and effort.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#44 - 2015-08-21 17:33:15 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I find that the best way of overcoming one's ingrained prejudices is to sit down one on one with Federation Loyalists. As often as you find yourself rolling your eyes and gritting your teeth, you tend to find that they are people, just like us.

I know this should be self-evident (no doubt there are people currently rollling their eyes and gritting their teeth at me!) but fifteen year old me, just coming out of the creche and entering the labour-force would have given serious thought to the hypothesis that the Gallente were an entirely different, non-human, species.

It takes time to break down these walls. Time and effort.

Respectfully, Pieter, your battlefield and mine may have been a little different.

Talking to people is easy for me. But in the case of the Gallente, that's also when it's hardest to let my guard down.

There's a reason I wanted to actually travel to the Federation. You can find Gallente everywhere, but there are only so many places you can see the effects of pervasive Gallentean influence and democracy over a long period of time.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#45 - 2015-08-21 21:13:14 UTC
Uh ... courtesy of current events, I'll be rejoining PY-RE in the Empire for the moment.

This project's going to have to be put on hold for a little while.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2015-08-21 21:46:53 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Uh ... courtesy of current events, I'll be rejoining PY-RE in the Empire for the moment.

This project's going to have to be put on hold for a little while.


Hoo-boy. It'll be interesting to see what happens now...

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2015-08-22 10:28:31 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:


Here's the problem, suuolo: just because it's a prejudice doesn't quite make it wrong. It just means you can't approach it fairly, so it's gets really hard to tell whether what you're seeing is really there.


Yes indeed... I suppose we all have some, to varying degrees. I might... have received some about the Caldari past the attack on Luminaire. I do not especially like it.



Aria Jenneth wrote:
As it turned out, she was probably half right: the Amarr really do feel that all other religions have to go. They're a little more considerate about culture than I had assumed, though.


Ah well... A lot of them might think so.

I just think that it is a short term view, a lack of patience from a people that are famous for their infinite patience.

Bare anything cataclysmic, I believe that if the universe continues in its current entropy, most people will be united under a single set of truths. It will be the Amarr religion, but that Amarr religion will have continued to evolve like it has always done, and it will certainly not be the same than the current one.

The thing is...

... What the Amarr and Gallente seem to have got right, is that it is futile to resist. Cultural wars can not be won defensively and behind closed walls.

And I believe that cultural wars are just the side effects of knowledge globalization. This will happen. It has already started.

Resisting is futile. You will just break. Bending and participating, is the productive way to go.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#48 - 2015-08-23 04:45:44 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Uh ... courtesy of current events, I'll be rejoining PY-RE in the Empire for the moment.

This project's going to have to be put on hold for a little while.

Sad news indeed.

I hope when… events allow you can return to your journey.

When you do I would offer one bit of advice when trying to “understand” the Federation.

Stop thinking so much and remember very little is what it appears to be.

I believe it was once best described as an enigma wrapped in a mystery.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#49 - 2015-08-23 10:11:28 UTC
Caroline Grace wrote:

Operation Highlander Battleground // Caldari Prime // Luminaire
The cause for this battle was the ever-lasting Caldari titan Shiigeru (Leviathan-class) on the orbit of the planet, watching and protecting the Caldari homeworld from above; up until the Federation Navy decided it is time to act. The crash of the Titan into the planet is known as one of the largest conventional explosions in the history of man.

Typical gallentean propaganda!!

THE CAUSE OF THIS BATTLE WAS TO KILL CALDARI CITIZENS AND TO OCCUPY CALDARI PRIME!

Everyone who have at lease one eye and one ear would KNOW that the attack began with INVASION ON CALDARI PRIME, and the Titan was attacked later in a desperate attempt to kill more Caldari as their invasion was brought into hold by valorous Caldari troopers on the ground.

But I agree that this place is a must see one. Everyone should see consequences of this inhuman atrocity commited by Gallenteans!

And this will become a reminder, that WE MUST RETALIATE!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Vikarion
Doomheim
#50 - 2015-08-23 12:12:15 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
If this goal is ever achieved then all the hardships endured by the Caldari and Minmatar will be preserved, as will the faith of the Amarr. The goal isn't to strip away cultural individuality and strength, but include it in our own to strengthen it.


Oh, for the love of all that is good and holy...

It seems that we Caldari have to repeat this, and emphasize this, over, and over, and over again.

If the goals of the Federation are achieved, then there will be no more Caldari. I cannot state this emphatically enough.We do not want anything to do with you. We do not want your democracy. We do not want your culture. We do not want your morals. We do not want you ideas. We do not want your art. We do not want your bureaucracy. We do not want anything to do with you.

I don't know how to put this so that it gets through. I'm trying again, though.

We don't want to be you. We don't want to be like you. We don't want anything to do with you.

That's why we rebelled, that's why we fought our War of Independence. We wish to set our own path, and it is not yours. And our culture is not yours, and it is inextricably linked with what we have chosen to be. Our culture is stronger than yours, has a greater hold on us than yours, and even though we do not seek to spread it, yet it does spread.

But just because you can get Caldari take-out somewhere in Gallente space does not mean that that is what we are. Part of what we are will ever be a refusal to embrace what you are, a refusal to embrace the easy, the pleasurable, the fast and the cheap. We seek to survive, and to thrive, and we live not so much as individuals as members of a greater whole, and we prefer it that way.

I am, as some have said, reasonable. But be warned, and be aware: there is nothing Caldari aside from the State. There is no Caldari culture aside from the State, aside from independence from every foreign foe. The Caldari - what it is to be Caldari - lives in independence and defiance, of you, the Federation, and of the Empire, and the Republic, and every outside entity.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#51 - 2015-08-23 13:01:59 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
We do not want your culture. We do not want your morals. We do not want you ideas. We do not want your art.


Don't be silly, of course you do.

You can sell it. Prints, pamphlets, holo-reels.. there's no ideal or noble concept that can't be debased and marketed to the masses as product. And the State knows it.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2015-08-23 13:46:59 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Uh ... courtesy of current events, I'll be rejoining PY-RE in the Empire for the moment.

This project's going to have to be put on hold for a little while.


You are always free to drop by for some R&R between your duties.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2015-08-23 13:47:58 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Caroline Grace wrote:

Operation Highlander Battleground // Caldari Prime // Luminaire
The cause for this battle was the ever-lasting Caldari titan Shiigeru (Leviathan-class) on the orbit of the planet, watching and protecting the Caldari homeworld from above; up until the Federation Navy decided it is time to act. The crash of the Titan into the planet is known as one of the largest conventional explosions in the history of man.

Typical gallentean propaganda!!

THE CAUSE OF THIS BATTLE WAS TO KILL CALDARI CITIZENS AND TO OCCUPY CALDARI PRIME!

Everyone who have at lease one eye and one ear would KNOW that the attack began with INVASION ON CALDARI PRIME, and the Titan was attacked later in a desperate attempt to kill more Caldari as their invasion was brought into hold by valorous Caldari troopers on the ground.

But I agree that this place is a must see one. Everyone should see consequences of this inhuman atrocity commited by Gallenteans!

And this will become a reminder, that WE MUST RETALIATE!


Did you know that tinfoil was invented by a Gallentean? What are you going to do for hats now?
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-08-23 21:56:07 UTC
Gallentean scalps?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#55 - 2015-08-23 22:24:44 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
If this goal is ever achieved then all the hardships endured by the Caldari and Minmatar will be preserved, as will the faith of the Amarr. The goal isn't to strip away cultural individuality and strength, but include it in our own to strengthen it.


Oh, for the love of all that is good and holy...

It seems that we Caldari have to repeat this, and emphasize this, over, and over, and over again.

If the goals of the Federation are achieved, then there will be no more Caldari. I cannot state this emphatically enough.We do not want anything to do with you. We do not want your democracy. We do not want your culture. We do not want your morals. We do not want you ideas. We do not want your art. We do not want your bureaucracy. We do not want anything to do with you.

I don't know how to put this so that it gets through. I'm trying again, though.

We don't want to be you. We don't want to be like you. We don't want anything to do with you.

That's why we rebelled, that's why we fought our War of Independence. We wish to set our own path, and it is not yours. And our culture is not yours, and it is inextricably linked with what we have chosen to be. Our culture is stronger than yours, has a greater hold on us than yours, and even though we do not seek to spread it, yet it does spread.

But just because you can get Caldari take-out somewhere in Gallente space does not mean that that is what we are. Part of what we are will ever be a refusal to embrace what you are, a refusal to embrace the easy, the pleasurable, the fast and the cheap. We seek to survive, and to thrive, and we live not so much as individuals as members of a greater whole, and we prefer it that way.

I am, as some have said, reasonable. But be warned, and be aware: there is nothing Caldari aside from the State. There is no Caldari culture aside from the State, aside from independence from every foreign foe. The Caldari - what it is to be Caldari - lives in independence and defiance, of you, the Federation, and of the Empire, and the Republic, and every outside entity.

Maybe I should have emphasized the "if". I don't actually expect this to happen, for all your aforementioned reasons. It was a hypothetical statement.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2015-08-23 22:55:06 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Gallentean scalps?


I don't think they come in sizes big enough for your ego...
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#57 - 2015-08-30 03:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Entry Four: Empty Set

It occurred to me, at last, what I maybe haven't understood about the Federation.

I've been approaching it as a sort of ideological enclave. That's the way its proponents and opponents tend to represent it-- a bastion of Freedom and Democracy (capitalization mandatory), a great and unabashedly aggressive power spreading its ideals by any and all means necessary, out to save the universe from anybody who thinks that maybe the voice of the people isn't the best entity to put in charge of everything.

Come to realize, that's maybe just the cutting edge of a blade-- the hardened, sharpened, reinforced bit that's meant to drive their own enthusiasm as much as anything else.

What lies behind is quite different.

This occurred to me when I was once again looking over the Duvolle station at Crielere, where I'm based. I was trying to figure out what it was for.

Amarrian stations are virtually cathedrals; Caldari stations are workplaces, focused on the jobs at hand. (Matari stations, from what little I've seen, are kind of about making do and getting by, but that might just be because I haven't spent enough time there.)

So what are Federal stations all about, with their gentle lighting and lightly padded, curved surfaces? I couldn't figure it out. It wasn't directly about Freedom; the place didn't keep shouting propaganda at me. The Gallente often act like they worship freedom like a god, but I didn't see so much of that. There weren't freedom-prayer drones hovering around reciting the Federal constitution. But it is easy on the eyes, and on the fingers, and gentle on the soul.

And I realized-- it's a habitat.

That's all. That it. Basically, it's just kind of a pleasant place to live. (Plus laboratory and factory facilities.)

What little I've seen so far of the Federation, planetside, hasn't been especially ideological, either. There's been street food and lovely views, but no real sense of an overarching, guiding order. This society, in which everyone supposedly has a thousand political opinions, is curiously apolitical. The god Freedom seems not to demand worship, or perhaps one worships that god implicitly, in the living of life day to day without being part of, and therefore having to conform to, an overarching order.

The Amarr seek to be the Kingdom of God. The Caldari seek Survival, come what may. The Matari seek (I think?) the Restoration of their people and culture.

The Gallente ... oddly, for such an outwardly aggressive culture, I'm not sure they "seek," other than just to live without the need to contribute their lives to a greater purpose. Where others demand contribution to a greater cause, the Gallente say, "do as you like." And for those whose character demands contribution to something greater than themselves, there's always ... freedom.

If I'm right, I don't quite know how to feel about this. Seen from this angle, the Federal cause of "freedom" could look on the Caldari State as a terrible threat: an ordered, controlled society, working, willing or not, towards a common goal, frightening in ruthless unity and efficiency.

"History," to the Gallente, seems to be anything more than a year old. But the Caldari hold grudges for centuries. How alien and threatening must we seem to eyes that just want to live peaceful, private lives? How horrifying, to a society so bereft of purpose, is one built on it from its foundations?

Even if their defenders are obsessed with "Freedom," the population works in no very focused way (really, it would be horribly ironic if they were all moving in lockstep towards "Freedom," but sometimes it seems from outside like they must be). For all the Gallentean talk of Rights and Freedoms, their goals as a society, it seems, are an empty set.

Are we Caldari the ideologues, here?
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#58 - 2015-08-30 05:07:58 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Are we Caldari the ideologues, here?


Yes..... and no. You could apply that label to anyone who has a cause and is willing to fight for it. The Federation isn't so much an empty set, it's more like..... how to put this.... a set full of many assorted actor playing from different scrips that somehow mesh up into a oddly coherent play that is the Federation.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#59 - 2015-08-30 05:34:38 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
The Federation isn't so much an empty set, it's more like..... how to put this.... a set full of many assorted actor playing from different scrips that somehow mesh up into a oddly coherent play that is the Federation.


Only, if the Federation simply accepts (within some limits) any script that people want to play by, isn't the real script ...

... silence?

A society almost as silent as the universe, but for this: "Let me live my own life"?
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#60 - 2015-08-30 09:17:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Entry Four: Empty Set

It occurred to me, at last, what I maybe haven't understood about the Federation.

I've been approaching it as a sort of ideological enclave. That's the way its proponents and opponents tend to represent it-- a bastion of Freedom and Democracy (capitalization mandatory), a great and unabashedly aggressive power spreading its ideals by any and all means necessary, out to save the universe from anybody who thinks that maybe the voice of the people isn't the best entity to put in charge of everything.

Come to realize, that's maybe just the cutting edge of a blade-- the hardened, sharpened, reinforced bit that's meant to drive their own enthusiasm as much as anything else.

What lies behind is quite different.

This occurred to me when I was once again looking over the Duvolle station at Crielere, where I'm based. I was trying to figure out what it was for.

Amarrian stations are virtually cathedrals; Caldari stations are workplaces, focused on the jobs at hand. (Matari stations, from what little I've seen, are kind of about making do and getting by, but that might just be because I haven't spent enough time there.)

So what are Federal stations all about, with their gentle lighting and lightly padded, curved surfaces? I couldn't figure it out. It wasn't directly about Freedom; the place didn't keep shouting propaganda at me. The Gallente often act like they worship freedom like a god, but I didn't see so much of that. There weren't freedom-prayer drones hovering around reciting the Federal constitution. But it is easy on the eyes, and on the fingers, and gentle on the soul.

And I realized-- it's a habitat.

That's all. That it. Basically, it's just kind of a pleasant place to live. (Plus laboratory and factory facilities.)

What little I've seen so far of the Federation, planetside, hasn't been especially ideological, either. There's been street food and lovely views, but no real sense of an overarching, guiding order. This society, in which everyone supposedly has a thousand political opinions, is curiously apolitical. The god Freedom seems not to demand worship, or perhaps one worships that god implicitly, in the living of life day to day without being part of, and therefore having to conform to, an overarching order.

The Amarr seek to be the Kingdom of God. The Caldari seek Survival, come what may. The Matari seek (I think?) the Restoration of their people and culture.

The Gallente ... oddly, for such an outwardly aggressive culture, I'm not sure they "seek," other than just to live without the need to contribute their lives to a greater purpose. Where others demand contribution to a greater cause, the Gallente say, "do as you like." And for those whose character demands contribution to something greater than themselves, there's always ... freedom.

If I'm right, I don't quite know how to feel about this. Seen from this angle, the Federal cause of "freedom" could look on the Caldari State as a terrible threat: an ordered, controlled society, working, willing or not, towards a common goal, frightening in ruthless unity and efficiency.

"History," to the Gallente, seems to be anything more than a year old. But the Caldari hold grudges for centuries. How alien and threatening must we seem to eyes that just want to live peaceful, private lives? How horrifying, to a society so bereft of purpose, is one built on it from its foundations?

Even if their defenders are obsessed with "Freedom," the population works in no very focused way (really, it would be horribly ironic if they were all moving in lockstep towards "Freedom," but sometimes it seems from outside like they must be). For all the Gallentean talk of Rights and Freedoms, their goals as a society seem to be are an empty set.

Are we Caldari the ideologues, here?


It took you a lot less time than the years it took me to come to that conclusion while living in there...

And then, the missing piece might be that this is all taken at the individual level. The upper layer, the mass, the crowd, the opinion, the audience, the lobbies, and the tycoons... Are sprouting from that fertile ground, and those are the ideologues.

Not clear cut, defined ideologies, but ephemerous ones, rarely living above a year or so, but always conforming to the roots. Because no matter what, ideologies will be shaped, used and will emerge... The difference here, is that the men steering the wheel behind are rarely there, or rarely unified. They move and evolve freely, for all the best and the worst they can bring.