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Pondering genetics.

First post
Author
Jenshae Chiroptera
#41 - 2011-12-20 03:39:11 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
... Each exceedingly long lived human would would become it's own unique version of itself, as it collected anomalies over long periods of time. The longer the lifespan of said organism the greater this divergence would be. ...

Vicker Lahn'se wrote:

While I prescribe to the "non-sexist" camp, I'll head off the sexists out there by asking the question that I know they will ask:


So incorrect on what I would say. Roll

My response on reading his post was, "... and yet we have turtles and redwoods, which live for hundreds and thousands of years, respectively ..."

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#42 - 2011-12-20 04:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
... Each exceedingly long lived human would would become it's own unique version of itself, as it collected anomalies over long periods of time. The longer the lifespan of said organism the greater this divergence would be. ...

Vicker Lahn'se wrote:

While I prescribe to the "non-sexist" camp, I'll head off the sexists out there by asking the question that I know they will ask:


So incorrect on what I would say. Roll

My response on reading his post was, "... and yet we have turtles and redwoods, which live for hundreds and thousands of years, respectively ..."



Ah yes, a tree and an exceedingly slow moving cold blooded reptile which most likley never develops human type pathologies... like a dog, cat, mouse, pig or horse would.

I see how that connects to my post (double roll eyes for you RollRoll)



It's because of the sexiest statement isn't it?
You are one of those mythological girl gamers arnt you?


Edit:

I did a quick google and got this...
Quote:

So they can reproduce more effectively. Long life spans provide an evolutionary advantage for certain types of animals. It makes sense to stick around if you live in an unpredictable or harsh environment where it's hard to reproduce on a regular basis. (Desert animals, for example, tend to get quite old before they die.) You'd also want to have a long life if you could only give birth infrequently for some other reason, or if you spent a lot of time caring for each of your offspring.


AKA... an evolutionary reason for turtles to have longer lifespans then humans. If reproduction in great multitudes is not an easy option, evolution could compensate with slightly elongated life spans in order to achieve the same result.


He shoots!
He scores!!

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#43 - 2011-12-20 04:31:55 UTC
Oh and...

Quote:
Ectothermia, or cold-bloodedness, is a major benefit to big animals. They need only a fraction of the food other animals need, their hearts beat more slowly, their cells burn and die more slowly, many diseases cannot affect them, they can tolerate a lot of environmental and dietary change, and they can go dormant when things are too bad and just wait for better times.



He is on fire!

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Vicker Lahn'se
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2011-12-20 06:25:30 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
... Each exceedingly long lived human would would become it's own unique version of itself, as it collected anomalies over long periods of time. The longer the lifespan of said organism the greater this divergence would be. ...

Vicker Lahn'se wrote:

While I prescribe to the "non-sexist" camp, I'll head off the sexists out there by asking the question that I know they will ask:


So incorrect on what I would say. Roll

My response on reading his post was, "... and yet we have turtles and redwoods, which live for hundreds and thousands of years, respectively ..."


My suggestion as to what a sexist would say was in response to Eternum's comment regarding sexism, not his goofball ideas about eternal life. Hence why I quoted the specific post that I was responding to.

Eternum Praetorian wrote:
He shoots!
He scores!!


I hate to break it to you, but no individual molecule can last forever, statistically speaking, and DNA is a molecule. Each atomic bond is held together by electrons that occupy bonding orbitals. Electrons obey the laws of quantum mechanics, and so there is a statistical probability that they will "tunnel" out of their bonding orbital. Given enough time, parts of a molecule will break apart. Add to this the fact that you're constantly being hit by cosmic rays and the occasional radioactive particle, which will also damage DNA.

So you're thinking, "But wait! Let's say you have 10 DNA molecules. If 1 DNA looks different from the other 10, a biological mechanism will fix the one oddball to look like the other 9." The thing is, there's still a finite statical probability for all 10 of those DNA molecules to break in a way that you can't figure out what the original is.

Nothing lasts forever, especially not on a molecular level. You can't live forever if your DNA can't live forever.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#45 - 2011-12-20 11:34:16 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
...
He shoots!
...

He's ignored!

...because he is still prattling on about sexist comment and doesn't understand that a discussion does not involve winning over someone else. Roll
Landrae wrote:
World needs more Chimeras that will fix everything!


Sebastian LaFleur wrote:

While you are correct that "we do not die because we have to", I have to disagree with you in that we have evolved to do so. There is no incentive for evolution to develop organisms that have to die. Take oxygen for example. Oxygen is a poison. Because of the high reactivity of oxygen it will lead to, if not countered, degradation of cellular functions and eventually to death of the cell. But precisely because of this quality of oxygen, it has been advantageous for organisms to evolve to use it in energy metabolism by the reduction of oxygen with electrons from carbohydrates. This produces much more energy in the form of ATP (or adenosine triphosphate) than using some other element in reduction like anoxygenic bacteria do. To counter the harmful effects of oxygen, oxygen using organisms have evolved several mechanisms to transform the harmful oxygen radicals to less harmful forms. But eventually oxygen will kill us (...indirectly).

Also, due to the nature of DNA replication, the DNA strands get shorter and shorter after each replication and this will eventually lead to degradation of the genetic code, loss of cellular functions and programmed cell death (or apoptosis). To counter this, organisms with linear chromosomes have evolved to include telomerase sequences to the ends of the DNA strands. These sequences do not code of any function, but allow the cell to maintain its functions longer. Incidentally, cancer cells develop when the programmed cell death is not functioning, which allows the cancer cells to replicate indefinitely. Cancer cells also have the ability to regenerate the telomerase sequences, thus extending the cells ability to replicate.

So, we die because of the accumulated effects of genetic degradation and diseases, not because we have evolved to die (since the ability to counter the harmful effects of living is there. It just isn't good enough to keep organisms alive forever.)



Thank you for your response. You sound like you either work or are studying in that sector, (I am just a programmer that reads non fiction into other subjects) What?

My original talking of us using recombination would go like this:

Individual "Wun" turns eighteen and has sex multiple times. On one occasion, they take on the genetics of their partner and start growing into a new life form, as Landrae said, Chimeras, however, it wouldn't be permanent. So, at eighteen they have a child and they recombine. At twenty five they are genetically speaking a new person, their own child, now when they have a child, it will genetically speaking be their grand child. Thirty two? Great grand child.

Since we wouldn't be copying ourselves but growing into a new body, I think we would combat most of the reasons that we grow old and die. Additionally, we would have much more reason to live longer as we are producing a next generation every seven years instead of every eighteen.

Two side effects of this would be that we don't replace brain cells, so we would grow senile and eventually go insane. The other is that with no inbuilt control system, we could change sex every seven years. Although, changing the bodies gender could also have evolutionary benefits and if we did have influences on what we become, we could fulfil imbalances in the population.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#46 - 2011-12-20 12:53:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Vicker Lahn'se wrote:

So you're thinking, "But wait! Let's say you have 10 DNA molecules. If 1 DNA looks different from the other 10, a biological mechanism will fix the one oddball to look like the other 9." The thing is, there's still a finite statical probability for all 10 of those DNA molecules to break in a way that you can't figure out what the original is.

Nothing lasts forever, especially not on a molecular level. You can't live forever if your DNA can't live forever.


And yet...

The sperm of all lifeforms remains intact indefinitely. How many copies of sperm do you think has existed since your first human ancestors? Since their monkey looking ancestors, since whatever preceded them, and so on and so forth all the way back to whatever pulled itself out of the sea and started reproducing?


Your theory cannot be corrects if a single component of a living being can persist without end. You can reproduce without end and so can all other life forms that fill the world around you. So how can what your saying be true? It can't. So my "goofball" theory is not so goofball if your counter theory has such a shinning anomaly in it.

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#47 - 2011-12-20 12:55:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
...
He shoots!
...

He's ignored!

...because he is still prattling on about sexist comment and doesn't understand that a discussion does not involve winning over someone else. Roll.


I would also pretend to ignore me instead of addressing the whole cold blooded turtle thing. There was a definite reason why your examples had longer lives, if you choose to now not talk about that fact... here's a napkin. You may want to wipe the egg off of your face.


Congratulations on your atypical closed minded approach to science.
Your heroes of science and philosophy would be proud Roll



P.S.

Also... I am not trying to win. I am trying to irritate those individuals who identify themselves as thinkers, whom are also blatantly committing the basic sins of mental aspirations. The first commandment, though shalt not turn the pursuit of knowledge into a skillful play of words. You should always ask questions, and there is never a wrong question to ask. if you want to be the champion of the debate team subscribe to politics not science or philosophy.

So saith Eternum.
So now why don't you provide a legitimate counter argument like everyone else? We would love to hear one, and I will listen.

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Jenshae Chiroptera
#48 - 2011-12-20 13:23:17 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
...
I would also pretend to ignore me instead of addressing the whole cold blooded turtle thing. ...


No, you missed the point that complex fauna can live a long time and I wasn't interested in discussing the pedantic points of your tangent. Roll

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#49 - 2011-12-20 13:32:33 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
...
I would also pretend to ignore me instead of addressing the whole cold blooded turtle thing. ...


No, you missed the point that complex fauna can live a long time and I wasn't interested in discussing the pedantic points of your tangent. Roll



Well I guess that is a typical comeback "I didn't want to discuss that part of the topic anyway" even though it directly pertains to the discussion at hand. Sigh...


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Jenshae Chiroptera
#50 - 2011-12-20 13:35:51 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:

Well I guess that is a typical comeback "I didn't want to discuss that part of the topic anyway" even though it directly pertains to the discussion at hand. Sigh...

You appear to be doing forum PVP with the goal of 1-up man ship. I am not interested in playing that game.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#51 - 2011-12-20 13:41:30 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:

Well I guess that is a typical comeback "I didn't want to discuss that part of the topic anyway" even though it directly pertains to the discussion at hand. Sigh...

You appear to be doing forum PVP with the goal of 1-up man ship. I am not interested in playing that game.


Alternatively, the game that you're playing transcends forums and video games. I openly admit that it is one of the biggest pet peeves I have. I know it stems from psychological reasons, but I gather that you would not want to hear about those either.


Turtles.
We can talk about turtles now.

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Jenshae Chiroptera
#52 - 2011-12-20 13:43:20 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:

Alternatively, the game that you're playing transcends forums and video games. I openly admit that it is one of the biggest pet peeves I have. I know it stems from psychological reasons, but I gather that you would not want to hear about those either.
.


Roll

Good bye.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#53 - 2011-12-20 13:46:05 UTC
Turtle!







.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Vicker Lahn'se
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2011-12-20 13:46:39 UTC
This is turning into a domestic dispute.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#55 - 2011-12-20 13:48:09 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
...
He shoots!
...

He's ignored!

...because he is still prattling on about sexist comment and doesn't understand that a discussion does not involve winning over someone else. Roll
Landrae wrote:
World needs more Chimeras that will fix everything!


Sebastian LaFleur wrote:

While you are correct that "we do not die because we have to", I have to disagree with you in that we have evolved to do so. There is no incentive for evolution to develop organisms that have to die. Take oxygen for example. Oxygen is a poison. Because of the high reactivity of oxygen it will lead to, if not countered, degradation of cellular functions and eventually to death of the cell. But precisely because of this quality of oxygen, it has been advantageous for organisms to evolve to use it in energy metabolism by the reduction of oxygen with electrons from carbohydrates. This produces much more energy in the form of ATP (or adenosine triphosphate) than using some other element in reduction like anoxygenic bacteria do. To counter the harmful effects of oxygen, oxygen using organisms have evolved several mechanisms to transform the harmful oxygen radicals to less harmful forms. But eventually oxygen will kill us (...indirectly).

Also, due to the nature of DNA replication, the DNA strands get shorter and shorter after each replication and this will eventually lead to degradation of the genetic code, loss of cellular functions and programmed cell death (or apoptosis). To counter this, organisms with linear chromosomes have evolved to include telomerase sequences to the ends of the DNA strands. These sequences do not code of any function, but allow the cell to maintain its functions longer. Incidentally, cancer cells develop when the programmed cell death is not functioning, which allows the cancer cells to replicate indefinitely. Cancer cells also have the ability to regenerate the telomerase sequences, thus extending the cells ability to replicate.

So, we die because of the accumulated effects of genetic degradation and diseases, not because we have evolved to die (since the ability to counter the harmful effects of living is there. It just isn't good enough to keep organisms alive forever.)



Thank you for your response. You sound like you either work or are studying in that sector, (I am just a programmer that reads non fiction into other subjects) What?

My original talking of us using recombination would go like this:

Individual "Wun" turns eighteen and has sex multiple times. On one occasion, they take on the genetics of their partner and start growing into a new life form, as Landrae said, Chimeras, however, it wouldn't be permanent. So, at eighteen they have a child and they recombine. At twenty five they are genetically speaking a new person, their own child, now when they have a child, it will genetically speaking be their grand child. Thirty two? Great grand child.

Since we wouldn't be copying ourselves but growing into a new body, I think we would combat most of the reasons that we grow old and die. Additionally, we would have much more reason to live longer as we are producing a next generation every seven years instead of every eighteen.

Two side effects of this would be that we don't replace brain cells, so we would grow senile and eventually go insane. The other is that with no inbuilt control system, we could change sex every seven years. Although, changing the bodies gender could also have evolutionary benefits and if we did have influences on what we become, we could fulfil imbalances in the population.


Quoting myself to bring the thread back on track and mark off the point that I blocked Eternum.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#56 - 2011-12-20 13:50:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Wow can you really block people on these forums now? LOL


Seriously, if you can where is the button? (no trolling) that is awesome.

Oh: Edit--- Hide posts. Woot.




I guess that means she just stuck her fingers in her ears Lol
Now we know she is a woman 0// \\0 0// \\0 \0/ \0/ Z0/ .... Who would have thought that being blocked would be so much fun!

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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#57 - 2011-12-20 15:24:52 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I have been reading about genetics lately and one thing that occurs to me is that people breed like vermin, giving in to their base desires too young.


On the contrary, the risk of birth defects rises as a woman ages. Optimal baby-making time is under 30, with the odds of problems rising rather dramatically between 35 and 40.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Another problem that stems from young parents is maturity and the poor emotional upbringing that they give their children, lowering the quality of society.


That's actually a problem of society, not young parents. The average age of first-time parents has been steadily rising for decades now. I'd say the problem is that we have raised multiple generations of less-mature adults.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#58 - 2011-12-20 15:30:15 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Who has read or watched Idiotcracy? Thoughts on that and how it relates with this thread?


My general opinion is that anyone who cites Idiocracy and anything more than an entertaining fantasy needs to stop pontificating on the woes of humanity. If society were to ever begin to crumble to the point that people can no longer maintain those things which make it possible for us to maintain our current population levels (and I assure you, the world of idiocracy wasn't supporting 10 billion people) then natural selection will take over and the smarter individuals will be selected, as they are the ones most capable of surviving.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#59 - 2011-12-20 15:39:50 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
We do not die because we have to, we die because we evolved to do so. If you work in the medical field you will understand what happens to a large portion of the human population as they age. Even if our cells were not hard coded to stop dividing, each and every human being would amass a wealth of their own personal body changing events. Take for example a simple toe corn. It is a simple enough of an example, life creates it and makes it grow, much like the force only much more disgusting. It gets to a certain size in a human lifetime if left unchecked, but think what would happen if that person lived many times longer?


It has also been suggested that we die because death prevents incest. Basically, any animals that didn't die and be removed from the gene pool would ultimately hold back evolution as they continued putting the same genetic material back into the population. That population would stagnate due to an inability to sustain genetic drift and ultimately die off when changes arose that it was unable to adapt to. Natural selection would favor mortality.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#60 - 2011-12-20 16:59:28 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
We do not die because we have to, we die because we evolved to do so. If you work in the medical field you will understand what happens to a large portion of the human population as they age. Even if our cells were not hard coded to stop dividing, each and every human being would amass a wealth of their own personal body changing events. Take for example a simple toe corn. It is a simple enough of an example, life creates it and makes it grow, much like the force only much more disgusting. It gets to a certain size in a human lifetime if left unchecked, but think what would happen if that person lived many times longer?


It has also been suggested that we die because death prevents incest. Basically, any animals that didn't die and be removed from the gene pool would ultimately hold back evolution as they continued putting the same genetic material back into the population. That population would stagnate due to an inability to sustain genetic drift and ultimately die off when changes arose that it was unable to adapt to. Natural selection would favor mortality.



That's a good one.
Noted for future reference.

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