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How would EVE break if we removed skills altogether?

First post
Author
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2015-08-04 03:15:03 UTC
Lugues Slive wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Most MMO's don't have a static minimum time to achieve that level cap. Some of the games in the MMO genre can allow a player to hit that cap in less time than it takes to get a level 5 frig with T2 guns. Most before doing the same with a cruiser. Not that I see that as an issue, but it's hard to make a decent comparison when most games can end progression before getting too far from the start here.

Especially when as you point out, they don't really need to.


But do you really want Eve to be an "end game" type game? I personally hate the idea of finishing progress in a few hours of gameplay, then grinding day after day for that one fit that everyone else has.

And I am not quite sure what you mean in your last line

The last line was about there being no specified "end game" and thus no need to grind for it, further breaking the comparison. Eve effectively is an "end game" from the beginning. For the most part the gist of what you do doesn't change too much, just the capacity to do it. Hence the reason why skills are fine.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2015-08-04 03:32:11 UTC
Lugues Slive wrote:
I truely hope you are trolling

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Not quite, here there is a hard cap on progression of 2700SP/H

Pretty much exactly that. There are ways to cheat yourself out of SP, but your gain is directly related to the time subbed. Any other MMO I can think of whether sub (i.e. WoW and whichever game it's going to grind into F2P next) or not either ties your power level to the time spent actively playing, or simply starts you off at or near the cap.

Which isn't to say that SP is the only way to gain power. Higher meta modules, drugs, links, friends or corp backup can all assist. SP is just special in how it doles out the advantages it gives.

A lot of people here say that getting rid of skills is stupid, because this would apparently lead to a deluge of cyno alts/Catalyst alts/Titans and Supercarriers living together.

I say that
A) that's bullshit.
B) A better way to get the depth that people pretend the SP system has would be to reverse the more commonly supported idea of dumping attributes and keeping skills.

Keep attributes, and have them modify how your skills behave. Instead of training Acceleration Control for your propulsion, remap/implant/whatever to boost the relevant attribute. Create some actual tradeoffs where being good at something comes at the cost of something else, instead of just knowing you'll be good at everything... eventually.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2015-08-04 04:34:02 UTC
There are no barriers in Eve, it's just a question of time how soon newbro could use all those opportunities laying arround.

What's the different from the skill points gaining system between complete newbro who has just arrive and 1 year old combat pilot who has never been doing industry ? Correct, no difference, both have to train same layout of skills to start industry path.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2015-08-04 08:39:22 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
It's not an RPG anymore without skills, if everyone can fly and do everything from day 1.

My opinion is that the biggest newbie turnoff in this game remains the +stat implants. It drives newbies away from entry-level PvP because they're too expensive for a new player to risk losing, but at the same time, anyone with any experience with other RPGs or even RTSes will invariably come to the conclusion that shoving in +4s ASAP is the correct long-term choice. Of course this results in them getting stuck with the relatively boring PvE and quitting.

They should absolutely get rid of +1 through +4 implants and just give every character +4 to all stats. +5s can remain in the game as +1s for people that want to spend a huge amount of ISK on a tiny advantage.


I could have seen this argument, but with the change to Jump clones...not buying it so much anymore.

Go get your +4s, then get a few Jump Clones. Want to PvP, jump out of your learning clone and go to it. When you are done, jump back into your learning clone and rack up the SP.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#85 - 2015-08-04 08:41:45 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
It's not an RPG anymore without skills, if everyone can fly and do everything from day 1.

My opinion is that the biggest newbie turnoff in this game remains the +stat implants. It drives newbies away from entry-level PvP because they're too expensive for a new player to risk losing, but at the same time, anyone with any experience with other RPGs or even RTSes will invariably come to the conclusion that shoving in +4s ASAP is the correct long-term choice. Of course this results in them getting stuck with the relatively boring PvE and quitting.

They should absolutely get rid of +1 through +4 implants and just give every character +4 to all stats. +5s can remain in the game as +1s for people that want to spend a huge amount of ISK on a tiny advantage.


There are no newbies in entry-level pvp. "Entry level" for pvp currently lies at about 50-70 million skill points, at which point the character is not a newbie.

Maybe we could have pvp for newbies if this suggestion passed, because right now we don't. Implants are not going to solve this problem.


Hahahaha....no.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2015-08-04 09:03:19 UTC
Umino Iruka wrote:



Helping new bros is not the subject of this....


Don't be daft, that was entirely the point of the OP.

Problem is it will also help out the older players, possibly even more. They know the game far, far better. For example, while my main sucks at invention, manufacturing, etc. I do know how it works as I have some alts who I have alternated at training. Take away skills and SP and I will be able to enter any market. And with my understanding of invention, manufacturing, etc. I'll always out do the new players. Further, I already have a nice inventory of BPOs and BPCs already researched. So yes, technically the new guy could do just as well as I do...when he gets the BPOs, the BPCs and figures out how it all works.


"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2015-08-04 13:45:02 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Umino Iruka wrote:
Helping new bros is not the subject of this....

Don't be daft, that was entirely the point of the OP.

Problem is it will also help out the older players, possibly even more. They know the game far, far better. For example, while my main sucks at invention, manufacturing, etc. I do know how it works as I have some alts who I have alternated at training. Take away skills and SP and I will be able to enter any market. And with my understanding of invention, manufacturing, etc. I'll always out do the new players. Further, I already have a nice inventory of BPOs and BPCs already researched. So yes, technically the new guy could do just as well as I do...when he gets the BPOs, the BPCs and figures out how it all works.

But the "subject of this" wasn't the OP - it was the argument from Corraidhin Farsaidh that his 3 day old toon was materially helping out a higher PS player in L4s.

For your argument of "oh, but I'll be helped more", it's true that you'll be more effective than new players. But that's already true, and enforced by SP limits. If you remove those limits then the new player is given a bigger leg up (in that they have more to left to train than you do), but are also free to improve at the game as fast as they can learn it.

SP training times might give you weeks, months or maybe even years(?) ahead of newbros because of accumulated % advantages. With those removed, you give the newbros the opportunity to stop being new that much faster.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2015-08-04 14:58:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
your arguement with corraidhin's anecdote was superfluous to the discussion, hinging on whether the person he was aiding needed or wanted the help. If i'm grinding for standing the isk is trivial.

Now as to having everyone being a max skilled clone, why bother having a persistent universe in the first place. Just turn it into an arcade game, you have just eliminated the value of a name and reputation. Big parts of eve. I rely partially on non perfect skills of my enemies to get past blockades in haulers. I rely on having that extra bit givin to me by a rapidly gained jury rigging skill to give me the t2 rigs. sometimes i rely on the "oh its him, don't bother, watch for others" part of my reputation. it does happen.

Other points reiterated: why not go further and get rid of isk, manufacturing, mining. all are impediments of newbro's getting into PVP for not all are combat choices.

lets turn the entire game into a flavor of the moment, graphically outdated, no rewards for progression, a deluge of options for people that never had to get slowly used to things.

Why should i teach people to use anything when they are fair game, max skills and in a brand new super poorly fitted bling ship?
Massive battles? where would you find the flash in the pan newbros willing to put up with max tidi?
Bittervets would leave in droves, alot of hard work, waiting and gratification evaporated with a single stroke.

Eve's eternal september. yeah, I'm old, and have seen what your idea comes to time and time again: ruination.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2015-08-04 15:10:25 UTC
Zimmer Jones wrote:
your arguement with corraidhin's anecdote was superfluous to the discussion,
Almost...
Quote:
Bittervets would leave in droves, alot of hard work, waiting and gratification evaporated with a single stroke.
It started off with me clarifying a point, like calling out that setting up a skill queue and taking a nap isn't "hard work". Waiting however is most certainly involved. Gratification depends on your... state of mind.

Personally, I think the ISK/manufacturing/territory claim parts of EvE provide enough of a driver that the "skill queues online" part of EvE could be dropped. I don't have any expectation CCP will actually do that, but if we can at least get newbros into the bittervet position of "I don't know what your problem is, I've got XX Mil SP so I just did a dozen other things while waiting for my next ship/fit/industry/whatever." then we'll see a lot less need for Goonswarm to lie to people about how important suicide tackle is.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#90 - 2015-08-04 15:15:33 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Zimmer Jones wrote:
your arguement with corraidhin's anecdote was superfluous to the discussion,
Almost...
Quote:
Bittervets would leave in droves, alot of hard work, waiting and gratification evaporated with a single stroke.
It started off with me clarifying a point, like calling out that setting up a skill queue and taking a nap isn't "hard work". Waiting however is most certainly involved. Gratification depends on your... state of mind.

Personally, I think the ISK/manufacturing/territory claim parts of EvE provide enough of a driver that the "skill queues online" part of EvE could be dropped. I don't have any expectation CCP will actually do that, but if we can at least get newbros into the bittervet position of "I don't know what your problem is, I've got XX Mil SP so I just did a dozen other things while waiting for my next ship/fit/industry/whatever." then we'll see a lot less need for Goonswarm to lie to people about how important suicide tackle is.



suicide tackle is one of the most paying jobs a newbie can do in this game and gets plenty of praise as no one likes to die.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2015-08-04 15:41:24 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
suicide tackle is one of the most paying jobs a newbie can do in this game and gets plenty of praise as no one likes to die.
The newbies don't like to die either.

Tackle itself is important, but in the same manner that a 3 day old toon can't help with L4s a FC would never choose a handful of week old tackle Atrons over a pair of Interceptors or Interdictors. Hero/Suicide/All-you-can-do tackle is a demeaning "you'll get to play EvE one day" job, that only gets pushed because it's hard to find other things for newbros to do.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#92 - 2015-08-04 15:57:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
Aerasia wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
suicide tackle is one of the most paying jobs a newbie can do in this game and gets plenty of praise as no one likes to die.
The newbies don't like to die either.

Tackle itself is important, but in the same manner that a 3 day old toon can't help with L4s a FC would never choose a handful of week old tackle Atrons over a pair of Interceptors or Interdictors. Hero/Suicide/All-you-can-do tackle is a demeaning "you'll get to play EvE one day" job, that only gets pushed because it's hard to find other things for newbros to do.



It can be the best isk in the game.

A FC will never turn down anyone for fleets.


If those 3 day old atrons like tackling things (not all die the moment they tackle something) then they can spend the next month getting skills that help them with tackling in the atron while working towards the ares.
Bleedingthrough
#93 - 2015-08-04 16:34:15 UTC
What EvE needs is a steady stream of new players and we won’t get that as long as the entry barriers for anything meaningful is perceived as that high. Skillpoints is something a new player understands and if he feels to have less a disadvantage over bittervets this is a good thing.

I think it is about time to remove arbitrary barriers skills like “advanced weapon upgrades” (and other fitting skills) and such. I don’t want to waste 6+ months on a new recruit before he gets somewhat useful. Training for skills that actually do something he can directly see, e.g. getting into t2 frigates, getting t2 guns, …, is IMHO a much better experience.

Removing training implants sounds like a good thing to me. “Get 5+s ASAP and be a little bit better in 6 months, a year or 5 years.” … don’t get podded, don’t play the game.
Lu Ziffer
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#94 - 2015-08-04 16:44:45 UTC
So the problem is not skills but the NPE is problamatic because some players tell newbies that they have to skill for a T2 fitted T3 cruiser instead of giving them decent advice.
Billy Bojangle
Doomheim
#95 - 2015-08-04 17:18:09 UTC
Removing skills altogether or pushing the start-point up into the multi-million sp range are both hazardous extremes that aren't necessary.

What I will say though, is that mandatory training to complete the career agents is very jarring and doesn't help the NPE at all. Worst case scenario here is the Caldari Adv. Military Agent mission requiring missile launcher operation and light missiles to finish the "shoot this rat with a missile," mission. That detour, although not terribly long, is immersion-stomping and extremely grating when you consider these are the agents intended to tutor you in the most basic skills. Skill, imo, every pilot should start with. This would not mean starting newbies with 1mil sp though as even 100k would cover everything needed and then some.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#96 - 2015-08-05 06:30:15 UTC
Lugues Slive wrote:
It takes 3.5 days to train into a BS, assuming that you put your core skills on hold until you are flying a BS (BS with frig guns?). But I would hate to learn basic gameplay in a 100m isk ship as opposed to a 100k isk one, just me.


A rookie who doesn't know what they are doing is going to last a lot longer in L2 missions flying a battleship than a destroyer. They just add one or two battleship sized local tank modules, some cruiser-sized offensive modules and whittle the enemies down in a war of attrition. The battleship has the advantage over a "more suitable" ship in terms of HP, capacitor, targeting range, and sheer firepower.

Learning basic gameplay in a single 100M ISK rookie ship vs making 50 mistakes in 2M ISK "properly fitted" ships? The freedom from fitting tedium alone is worth the investment. All the while the rookie is learning, "I can solve my problems by throwing more ISK into the bucket while waiting for this year long skill queue."

Take away skill points and the decisions come down to travel time, ability to manage local tank or buffer, knowledge of overheating, traversal, range dictation, and optimum damage types.

Which skills do you want rookies learning?
Axon Magnus
Tactical Stability Union
#97 - 2015-08-05 23:57:09 UTC
i have been playing this game for year now roughly 6 years or so counting the alts , i have to say this is actually a very good idea :D . reason is i started playing the game in highschool and at the time it put me off how the skills worked but i stuck with it and along the way i tried to introduce so many many of my friends into eve and the one thin that blow them off was the amount of time it took to fly other ships .

seriously op is on to something big , i can understand why people would be against this . truth is i am too but like a great man once said "the mark of an intelligent man is to entertain an idea with out accepting it " .If this happened eve would exploded but at least 1000% . i know it sound far fetched but think about all your friends you tried to get them into eve and for me its 100s over college and high school and neigbor hood you also have to include them pontetially inviting other people too :)

there is only one change i would make , and that is the long skill to train should take a max of 2 weeks :) , so in essence am saying instead of out right removing the system make it more attractive by shortening it considerably ^_^

once again " it the mark of an intelligent man to entertain a thought without accepting it :) Pirate
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2015-08-06 04:10:07 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Lugues Slive wrote:
It takes 3.5 days to train into a BS, assuming that you put your core skills on hold until you are flying a BS (BS with frig guns?). But I would hate to learn basic gameplay in a 100m isk ship as opposed to a 100k isk one, just me.


A rookie who doesn't know what they are doing is going to last a lot longer in L2 missions flying a battleship than a destroyer. They just add one or two battleship sized local tank modules, some cruiser-sized offensive modules and whittle the enemies down in a war of attrition. The battleship has the advantage over a "more suitable" ship in terms of HP, capacitor, targeting range, and sheer firepower.

Learning basic gameplay in a single 100M ISK rookie ship vs making 50 mistakes in 2M ISK "properly fitted" ships? The freedom from fitting tedium alone is worth the investment. All the while the rookie is learning, "I can solve my problems by throwing more ISK into the bucket while waiting for this year long skill queue."

Take away skill points and the decisions come down to travel time, ability to manage local tank or buffer, knowledge of overheating, traversal, range dictation, and optimum damage types.

Which skills do you want rookies learning?


Since when you considered BS for lvl2's? It would be restricted anyway.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
#99 - 2015-08-06 04:59:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugues Slive
Mara Rinn wrote:
Lugues Slive wrote:
It takes 3.5 days to train into a BS, assuming that you put your core skills on hold until you are flying a BS (BS with frig guns?). But I would hate to learn basic gameplay in a 100m isk ship as opposed to a 100k isk one, just me.


A rookie who doesn't know what they are doing is going to last a lot longer in L2 missions flying a battleship than a destroyer. They just add one or two battleship sized local tank modules, some cruiser-sized offensive modules and whittle the enemies down in a war of attrition. The battleship has the advantage over a "more suitable" ship in terms of HP, capacitor, targeting range, and sheer firepower.

Learning basic gameplay in a single 100M ISK rookie ship vs making 50 mistakes in 2M ISK "properly fitted" ships? The freedom from fitting tedium alone is worth the investment. All the while the rookie is learning, "I can solve my problems by throwing more ISK into the bucket while waiting for this year long skill queue."

Take away skill points and the decisions come down to travel time, ability to manage local tank or buffer, knowledge of overheating, traversal, range dictation, and optimum damage types.

Which skills do you want rookies learning?


I would have them learn to choose the appropriate ship for the task at hand and the skills they have. Basic combat and tank skills and say cruiser 2-3 could easily run lvl 2 missions.

Edit: and I expect veteran pilots to give positive advice to new player instead of telling them they are worthless and can't play. I gave many alts with almost no skills and I still enjoy taking them out for a pleasure cruise in t1 fit dessies and frigs. There is a lot of fun to be had at low sp.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2015-08-06 05:40:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
Axon Magnus wrote:

.If this happened eve would exploded but at least 1000% . i know it sound far fetched but think about all your friends you tried to get them into eve and for me its 100s over college and high school and neigbor hood you also have to include them pontetially inviting other people too :)

there is only one change i would make , and that is the long skill to train should take a max of 2 weeks :) , so in essence am saying instead of out right removing the system make it more attractive by shortening it considerably ^_^



quantity doesn't't mean quality

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP