Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Nothing says it is.


If none of us have any direct evidence on the effect of SP on subs, that's no critique on motivation as a well-established topic.


AWOXing can be prevented. Those characters, for example, have to get on comms. They have real traits that can be identified. Why not require a scan of a drivers license with important information blurred? That, at least, embetters the AWOXing barrier; and the picture can be put through image manipulation detection for the necessary details.


Pretty sure that reply about AWOXing and subs is a complete fabrication.

I promote the idea of SP, more non-scientifically.. but logically, on the idea of the game getting better retention because it's really fulfilling; and this is multiplicative. It's clear that subs come for the dynamism. Does it really seem any less clear that they generally disappear because that's limited?

Motivation's and expectation's effect on retention is originally provided by the company.. as main design philosophies for improvement. Call that as vague as you would, but that's what they explicitly describe as helpful; so, of what helpfulness is it trying to undermine that whole discussion by simply calling it vague?

Would you like to quote where it's stated that subs and SP are a mutually exclusive relationship? Would you like to provide evidence of how only great game mechanics retain play?

Are you talking about "extrinsic" and "intrinsic"? Else, again, quote where that's stated.

Yeah, requiring players to provide private information to join a corp/alliance. I'm thinking this would not sit well with CCP.

And so what about comms. They are blue, so they get on blue comms....not hard. In fact, quite easy.

And as for better retention rates, I find that rather dubious. While yes, they can go fly an archon, they will not be able to afford one. Yes, some might go the route of plopping down another $40 or so for a couple of PLEX, but not all of them. And then if they lose said archon? Another $40? And when they find out about fatigue and they managed to get stuck for 17 days someplace they didn’t want to be? Even without SP there will still be considerable barriers to players experiencing all of Eve.

Considering the topic is the skill system I'm not sure how establishing that the skill system serves functions beyond motivation is deflection.

If you think that the only element worth consideration is the ability of an aspect of the game to motivate and have no concerns for balance or abuse control you've more or less disqualified your position from being rational. If not, then clearly bringing up other positive aspects of the skill system can't be deflection.

A system open enough for deceit and espionage creates an impetus for alts, as do roles not befitting the devotion of a "main" (cyno alt/freighter web alt/market character/etc). I see no reason only multi-account holders should be able to utilize these functions frivolously in various aspects of the game, or that they should be further empowered by exclusive awareness in multiple areas.

What you suggest doesn't curb multi account holder abuses is a skill-less game, it increases them comparatively by removing any semblance of the same functions from single account holders.

I don't need my market alt, spy character or market toon on at the same time as my main. If my cyno is for someone else' cap I only need one character on. If I have 2 characters operating in different space I almost certainly don't need them both on at the same time.

Even a web alt for someone else' freighter doesn't require a player to have multiple characters online.

And no, this doesn't stand in the way of interdependence, while it admittedly does weaken it, but not nearly as much as a skill-less game was. Really it mostly off-shifts tasks that a player wouldn't dedicate themselves to.

The obvious benefits to interdependence come in due to some roles not being a trivial train. Cyno alts are trivial. Cap pilots and titan bridges are not. Freighter webbers are trivial. Freighters are not. General combat and mining are trivial. T2 boosts for either from a T2/T3/Orca is not. Further efficiencies allow for for other forms of interdependence (which are eliminated when those skill created efficiencies are also eliminated).

As for why players can't simply do everything with single characters? Simple, because they don't want to. Specifically they don't want gameplay to be dominated by busy work when not needed. Why fly a main to every cyno location every time a jump needs made? Who wants to play that role consistantly? Who want to have the job of just sitting in Jita for price checks? It's in no way ludicrous to have people bypass these limits because those are the true tasks no one wants to do.

To the notion of spying, why is having an additional account the equivalent of commitment? And how committed is a character of instant creation used for the task vs one that has worth through development time? When a risk of permanent association with a identity combines with that identity having value due to a skillset, we have some level of working consequence.

And no, I don't see any specific driver that would promote corp membership without skills. It doesn't logically flow that "since a player can board x ship they are more likely to seek a corp." Rather, seeking help tends to be the thing one does when they encounter restrictions they may not understand and want to see advice on how to proceed. For a new player depth is rarely appreciated anyways (remember that basic functions like the market went unused by a number of trial players), thus the need to emphasize (in freedom to act, which is the actual freedom the game advertizes rather than freedom to use "x") it rather than simply make it available.

What do you mean by "Cynos are less prevalent with JF?" Also considering part of your suggestion is to enable more cap capable pilots, even if not necessarily cap using pilots, how does the cyno role lessen? If these cap tools become a part of these supposedly more frequent skirmishes, how does that role lessen? Also are you meaning to suggest that dedicated cyno is a role that a number of players would see fit to devote themselves to? Or are you suggesting that it's more rewarding than it is a pain to be expected to drop your current activities any time a cyno chain becomes needed? Both seem pretty strange positions.

It seems more like you are suggesting of trapping players in roles and/or crippling cap ship and black ops use to facilitate your idea while still claiming greater activity and choice.

Maybe, depends on the corps security practices. Though as part of the existing game it shouldn't be discarded simply because it can be protected against. Having the prerequisite of spying while having and demonstrating other allegiances be holding multiple accounts is unreasonable.

They can already leave tackle gameplay. Frigates are not the incapable ships you paint them as, nor are they relegated to a single combat role. Just looking at explicit bonuses we have 5 defined roles in each racial T1 frigate lineup, the venture further adding another. Add to that all potential uses and it becomes clear no such lock into a single type of game play, and thus no forced repetition, exists.

That every pilot experienced this is also irrelevant as a new player can draw no value from the fact that others may or may not have had the same starting experience.

Also you've still failed to form a coherent link from flying a cruiser to joining a corp that doesn't exist now. Players now are finding these differences such as tracking on different sizes of guns and asking questions. Where is the difference that fuels the change in behavior? Does having the cruiser potentially a few days sooner make a notable difference? Why?

And when CCP Rise referenced use of the market he wasn't talking about skill enabled niche use, he stated that some never used it at all. That isn't niche, that's basic use of isk to obtain mods and/or ships. That use doesn't compete with training in other directions as no SP barrier exists to making simple purchases in any quantity.

As well, on interdependence, it's probably a great guess that a majority of corps are limited by pilot SP. The average member count of corps seems an elusive number, but EveWho lists 7.8M characters and 332k corporations -- which is an average of about 24 characters per corporation. For the example, it's probably worth pretending that the average corp has about 50, because that's a pretty simple goal.

What can these corps aspire to, honestly? A lot of those members are probably fresh characters. Most recruits come from militia chat and adverts, which makes this even more plausible (established pilots have corps). Guess what their roams are? ..Nothing cruisers or above. Some are gatecamps, roams, FW, and maybe even null, but the level of competency that comes with mostly fresh characters is much less incentive to bring expensive ships. Even more, the majority of play is still probably scram range (especially with these classes of play), so they're mostly welp fleets of some sort. ..It's that there's no progression. What if the majority of those fresh characters stop logging in? The cycle repeats. There's the added problem of hisec wardec'ing, but that's more of a leadership problem -- that they are filling corp hangars. It's also incredibly uninteresting making ISK with low SP, which consists mostly of exploration, combat sites, maybe some missioning, and orbiting FW beacons. It seems that unrestricted options could get corps in to more adventurous roles, much more with the sov redesign. There's obviously more than that -- it's about strategy, which requires options. Whether it's the production of corp ships or just the motivation to play more to fund bigger ships, the issue is having the SP throughput to compete with neighboring corps.


There should be nothing about that post that makes the topic seem about tackle roles. The majority of solo frigates are scram-fit, and this makes engagements all-or-nothing. That seems problematic, then comes checking on stats (which seem tiny), then comes the training queue seeming awful.

Fine, then.. it's a sniper Cormorant instead of cruisers. The point is that the need for a corp seems minimal with frigates because of how reportedly feasible they are. Honestly, the availability of greater ships and t2 mods would promote the benefits of a corp. Trying to find a market for the character's ores and refinements and productions and innovations could not only inspire location exploration, but also that much more learning and interest. Everything's correlated in the game, so every progression is correlative.