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Matari: To See a Republic

Author
Cain Aloga
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#61 - 2015-09-03 13:13:11 UTC
Sinti Vailatti wrote:
Cain Aloga wrote:
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Minmatar, sure. Matari? I wouldn't say so. Matari is more than blood. It's spirit, tradition, loyalty and adherence to Matari ways. This does not mean non-Matari don't have the potential to become Matari, or for Matari to lose their way and the right to call themselves Matari. It just means there is more to the Tribes than blood.


This accurately portrays my own stance on the subject. There is nothing more to add.



Nah, that's divisive. It's like saying we Sebbies are more "Matari" than the Brutor. It isn't a competition.


Im not sure I understand. At what point where there any comparisons made?

While our warriors fight for our people's freedom, we in turn should fight for our people's prosperity.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#62 - 2015-09-03 13:56:36 UTC
Cain Aloga wrote:
Im not sure I understand. At what point where there any comparisons made?


It's a false equivalence. Vailatti is attempting to say that to say, "Minmatar who do not follow the ways of their Tribe are not Matari" is equivalent to saying, "Brutor are less Matari than Sebiestor".

It misses the point completely - that cultural background, simply saying 'I learned what the festivals and tales of my Tribe are' is not cultural participation. And participating in our culture is part of being a part of that culture. To be Matari is to be Matari, not to simply know about us and have our lineage. If someone is of our lineage, learns our ways, but does not practice them, distances themselves from their Tribe and Clan... they are Minmatar, but not Matari. Is it divisive? Of course. They have divided themselves from us, we are simply acknowledging that.
Goldfinch
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2015-09-03 14:01:17 UTC

Sinti Vailatti wrote:
What makes one Matari then? Minmatar is the classification of us based on genetic and cultural marks that tie us to the same "homeworld." Either "Matari" means the same thing, or it's a term that's meant to divide us.


We do not see qualifiers as being divisive. Qualifiers are a way to distinguish elements of a culture to give them beauty and depth. There are many qualifiers that exist in your Khanid culture, so we find your objection to be curious.

Since we ourself are ignorant on the definition, a Matari kindly explained it to us.

Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Matari means more than Minmatar blood. It means an understanding and connection to the ways of the Tribes. It means a belonging which is starting to become rare among the blood.




Ms. Del'thul's definition leads us to believe that it would be possible to be Matari, without being of Minmatar blood. Such a person would have to have a deep connection with the ways, as described, with possibly even significant contributions to Minmatar.

The definition appears similar, to us, to our own cultural identity. We are Amarr which is a religious and cultural identity, but not True Amarr which is a distinction of blood.



We apologize Ms. Del'thul, Ms. Culome if we misconstrued our conversation from the other night.

\J/

veiled and bound

my origin story (on eve-backstage)

Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#64 - 2015-09-03 14:14:52 UTC
I would imagine it'd take quite a lot to become Matari without being born Minmatar, but adoptions into clans have happened before and will happen again. It is indeed a matter of bonds and connection to a clan and tribe, it's traditions, history and ways that matter the most.

I know of Minmatar that have rejected their clan and tribe, instead identifying as Amarr. While I suspect they will never truly find belonging there, it is no less valid than someone seeking belonging among the clans and becoming Matari.
Sinti Vailatti
Angelis Exploration
#65 - 2015-09-03 18:34:41 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
I would imagine it'd take quite a lot to become Matari without being born Minmatar, but adoptions into clans have happened before and will happen again. It is indeed a matter of bonds and connection to a clan and tribe, it's traditions, history and ways that matter the most.

I know of Minmatar that have rejected their clan and tribe, instead identifying as Amarr. While I suspect they will never truly find belonging there, it is no less valid than someone seeking belonging among the clans and becoming Matari.



And yes, this.

Some Matari support the Republic and stay close to the homeworlds and all the people of Matar that reside there. Some Matari wander, live in different places mix with different people. Some Matari were born Caldari, or Gallente but through marriage or adoption have become Matari. Some others live in Amarr, either free or slave.

How did the Tribes start? What makes a tribe? I think me, a Matari of Khanid is just as much a Matari as anyone else. I'm Matari, but maybe I'm not Sebbie anymore. Maybe I'm from the Neyi Tribe? Maybe I know some people from the Matari of God tribe up in Domain. Maybe I know some Thukkers who just moved to Thera but have a group of Intaki travelling with them.

You see? It's not the Amarr that are trying to drive wedges between us, it's ourselves. And yeah, I'm going to point a finger at the Republic too. We are different on a tribal level, a family level. Maybe we are different on a religious and spiritual level; or a political. But that should never disqualify a person from being Matari.

“Where must we go...we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves?”

Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#66 - 2015-09-04 04:04:25 UTC
You aren't Matari. You are Minmatar. There is a difference that has been pointed out many times.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2015-09-04 10:38:25 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
The republic is a messy and horribly defunct institution. It was bad under Midular, and its bad now under Shakor. I'd argue though that the badness isn't a direct fault of either of them, but of trying to run two governments as one government. The tribal system and the social democratic system practised in the Federation just flat out cannot coexist. They are two mutually exclusive forms of government.


The Republic has improved in economy, infrastructure, standard of living, and military power under Shakor. Meteorically.
You have been in Anoikis far too long, the dual government system was effectively ended in June of YC110 with the purge and the last vestiges completely replaced with the new Tribal Republic in YC116.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/minmatar-tribal-assembly-closes-after-ratifying-new-political-order/


Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
I am Matari. I am of the Tribes. I do not belong to a system created by the Federation, however well intended it may or may not have been. Fortunately, this is no longer quite the case. We are returning to our Tribes ways and the Republic will soon be that in name only, and hopefully soon enough not even that.


See above, the remnants of the Gallente-authored system have been replaced over the last seven years. It is currently a full Tribal Republic as identical to the pre-day of darkness government as is possible.

Elmund Egivand wrote:
I also have doubts about exactly how much power the Tribal Council has, and whether they are leading the people of the Republic or led by the popular opinions of the Republic people, however ill-advised it might be.


They have absolute power except when it comes to matters of a single Tribe and then the Chief of that Tribe has absolute authority. Each Chief rules their Tribe differently.

The Republic is not a democracy in any way, it has far more in common with the meritocracies of the state or nullsec groups at a micro level and a resemblance to the more authoritarian Empire at the high levels of government.

Professor Gilles Horolosios of Caille University echoed the views of many Gallente political commentators, saying "The Tribal Assembly has switched off the life-support machine that was keeping the dying body of democracy in the Minmatar Republic alive."

To quote the article linked above and the opinions of the Gallente who solely study democracy.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2015-09-04 10:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
N'maro Makari wrote:
A nice twist to the debate, or just an opportunity to state an opinion:

If a person of Minmatar ancestry isn't loyal to the traditions of their clan or tribe, are they still Matari?

This is a broad question, so as before, interpret how you wish.


Yes.


And for all the colorful rhetoric in this thread too few have picked up a dictionary and realized that Minmatar and Matari are synonyms. Matari being the more formal and modern usage.

Goldfinch wrote:
Ms. Del'thul's definition leads us to believe that it would be possible to be Matari, without being of Minmatar blood.


Yes it is.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Skyweir Kinnison
Doomheim
#69 - 2015-09-04 11:22:20 UTC
Pilot Ayallah is correct. The only remaining step to be taken is to find the backbone to properly re-name that arrangement so that its people can properly understand that they are powerless, poverty-stricken minions of hereditary vested interests, much as they were when enslaved by Amarr, only now with illusions and a nice set of endless grievances to keep them distracted.

The Tribal Oligarchy would be clearer, and make the wreckage look a tad less like a tinpot fraternity trying to use the noble word "Republic" to legitimise de facto servitude.

Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.

Cain Aloga
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#70 - 2015-09-04 12:09:08 UTC
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:
Pilot Ayallah is correct. The only remaining step to be taken is to find the backbone to properly re-name that arrangement so that its people can properly understand that they are powerless, poverty-stricken minions of hereditary vested interests, much as they were when enslaved by Amarr, only now with illusions and a nice set of endless grievances to keep them distracted.

The Tribal Oligarchy would be clearer, and make the wreckage look a tad less like a tinpot fraternity trying to use the noble word "Republic" to legitimise de facto servitude.



You clearly have no understanding of the the Tribes or our culture.

While our warriors fight for our people's freedom, we in turn should fight for our people's prosperity.

Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2015-09-04 12:19:11 UTC
"The long-serving Krusual parliamentarian Tobias Efrit, tipped as a certain re-appointment to the new parliament, responded, "The effete academics of the Federation can whine all they like about their so-called 'democracy'. This day has brought the tribes back to power and I rejoice. I just rejoice." Public opinion polls would appear to show that Tobias Efrit's view is largely shared by the majority of Minmatar in the Republic."

From the article I linked.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#72 - 2015-09-04 12:42:07 UTC
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:
Pilot Ayallah is correct. The only remaining step to be taken is to find the backbone to properly re-name that arrangement so that its people can properly understand that they are powerless, poverty-stricken minions of hereditary vested interests, much as they were when enslaved by Amarr, only now with illusions and a nice set of endless grievances to keep them distracted.

The Tribal Oligarchy would be clearer, and make the wreckage look a tad less like a tinpot fraternity trying to use the noble word "Republic" to legitimise de facto servitude.


Indeed, it could be said that the Republic died along with Midular.

And of course given Shakor's links to the Jove, it could be argued that the Minmatar aren't even really governed from Pator any more.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Tabor Murn
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2015-09-04 12:55:54 UTC
Shakor hasn't governed the Republic for 21 months. Try to keep up Rodj.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#74 - 2015-09-04 13:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Tabor Murn wrote:
Shakor hasn't governed the Republic for 21 months. Try to keep up Rodj.


That depends on who you speak to.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Skyweir Kinnison
Doomheim
#75 - 2015-09-04 13:23:55 UTC
Cain Aloga wrote:

You clearly have no understanding of the the Tribes or our culture.



You have many cultures, often in conflict. Even if one takes things at face value at the highest tribal level. In addition, culture is one thing. Being politically capable is another.

Your tribal fragmentation makes the Oligarchy weak and prone to severe corruption. I understand the consequences of this living in the past all to well, it illustrates itself every year in my tax returns.

What worked for your 'cultures' on a couple of continents on a small planet a thousand years ago is critically flawed for the power politics in the cluster now. Your people are scattered all over the stars.

If all the Minmatar want to be is a divided, inconsequential people, unable to agree among themselves, let alone form civilised relationships with other governments, then the tribal structure may serve some sort of a purpose. If you actually want to be a power bloc and have the trade, resources and political clout to free those enslaved; and then feed them and provide a future, you'll need something much, much better.

You might institute a tribal flavour to a second chamber, for example. But the Minmatar are so fragmented in opinion - and devoted to personal freedom, too - the only meaningful government that can reach the compromises needed is democracy. You can cast wistful glances at the Caldari State all you like, but their mega-corporations are ruthlessly efficient in applying their meritocracy and have made a fair effort to remove the individualism so prevalent in the Matari character.

Family ties and clan loyalties merely embed corruption and nepotism.You can't avoid it, any more than you can avoid fratricidal disputes growing out of hand. If you didn't have the Amarr as your bogeyman, the tribes would rend themselves apart - in fact, they're doing an impressive collapse already, with the Thukker and Nefantar wanting nothing much to do with the rest, and increasing 'No True Matari" arguments being bandied about.



Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.

Vollhov
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2015-09-04 13:32:04 UTC
"We need to save them, all of them, from themselves. We need to reclaim their fates and envelop them in ours. And we need to love them, no matter how much it hurts."
"All these wayward children." - Jamyl Sarum.

End of Time. I'm not fanatic, I'm just a servant by Her Majesty the Empress Jamyl Sarum I. It's time to leave this world to me. YC111 to YC117.12.10 20:00

Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2015-09-04 15:52:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Ah so we must erase our individualism, surrender our fates and embrace democracy. Just shy of two years after we returned to the only government we ever chose. The government that is the antithesis of these suggestions,

Suggestions borne out of fear of what we may do.
Keep them where they are wanted;

unspoken.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#78 - 2015-09-04 17:06:34 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:
Pilot Ayallah is correct. The only remaining step to be taken is to find the backbone to properly re-name that arrangement so that its people can properly understand that they are powerless, poverty-stricken minions of hereditary vested interests, much as they were when enslaved by Amarr, only now with illusions and a nice set of endless grievances to keep them distracted.

The Tribal Oligarchy would be clearer, and make the wreckage look a tad less like a tinpot fraternity trying to use the noble word "Republic" to legitimise de facto servitude.


Indeed, it could be said that the Republic died along with Midular.

And of course given Shakor's links to the Jove, it could be argued that the Minmatar aren't even really governed from Pator any more.

I might be not very well acquainted into tribal affairs, but according to what I have noticed, they started being governed from outside their... Pator? (is it their official capital?) even earlier - since YC110. As far as I heard, the Elder invasion and terror against CONCORD and Empire core worlds was launched not from the Pator, while having Republic ships.

I could suspect gallentean intervention there, since gallente try to instigate freedom, which is another synonym for chaos. And tribal actions were full of ignorance and primal rage.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#79 - 2015-09-04 17:31:05 UTC
You know, as a Sebiestor entrepreneur - especially one who based out of Inoue for a long time - I actually tend to like the State more than the Federation. The State's honest in their avarice, and there's a kind of respect for others in that lack of deception.

With that in mind, I have to wonder how much the Federation pays you to run around as a one-woman false flag operation aimed at making everyone despise the State. What's the going rate these days?
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2015-09-04 17:51:36 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
You know, as a Sebiestor entrepreneur - especially one who based out of Inoue for a long time - I actually tend to like the State more than the Federation. The State's honest in their avarice, and there's a kind of respect for others in that lack of deception.

With that in mind, I have to wonder how much the Federation pays you to run around as a one-woman false flag operation aimed at making everyone despise the State. What's the going rate these days?


The State tends to be upfront about their motives. The Feds tend to sugarcoat things too much.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.