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[Bounty Hunting] A Solution to Create a Near-perfect System

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Boba Mereel
Doomheim
#61 - 2015-07-27 22:10:59 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
-1


"Bad idea, bad execution, bad CSM for even thinking about it."


"Bounty system doesn't work by itself in high sec, it was never supposed to."

"It needs the crime watch/war dec side, or suicide ganking, to actually use."

"Basically, bounties are kinda a moot point in Eve, especially in high sec. Removing the system and replacing it with a proper mercenary system is the best fix."


Can you explain the reasoning behind this? Please do, indulge me.
Boba Mereel
Doomheim
#62 - 2015-07-27 22:16:22 UTC
Enya Sparhawk wrote:
I read through most of this... its pretty long...

It got me thinking about this 80's movie
Gotcha!

Basically, these university students had this game of paintball where they would hunt one another... you hunt someone, someone else is hunting you...
(it was random, you put your student id into a hat and everyone chooses until there is only one person left)

Anyways, how about we get a system like this into play, sort of like the dueling system where everyone participating puts their name into a hat and then all hell breaks loose...

The basic idea is to foster a system of game play for a proper bounty system... start small...

Gather as much data as possible from just a game and then apply it to a real time bounty hunting system in the future...(which would obviously be different from just a simple game; with the game you aren't getting lost in the acquisition of ISK getting in the way)

Actually field test out what would work and what wouldn't in a real EVE setting...

Use all of this to refine this system into a proper career path...


Interesting, that would be a fun minigame. Especially for newbros to teach them PvP. Big smile

Imagine a bunch of Ibis's meeting up and doing that. Essentially hide and seek with guns!
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2015-07-27 23:14:30 UTC
Boba Mereel wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
-1


"Bad idea, bad execution, bad CSM for even thinking about it."


"Bounty system doesn't work by itself in high sec, it was never supposed to."

"It needs the crime watch/war dec side, or suicide ganking, to actually use."

"Basically, bounties are kinda a moot point in Eve, especially in high sec. Removing the system and replacing it with a proper mercenary system is the best fix."


Can you explain the reasoning behind this? Please do, indulge me.



I thought I explained myself pretty well. So let me try again:


Kenrailae wrote:
-1


Bad idea, bad execution, bad CSM for even thinking about it.


Bounty system doesn't work by itself in high sec, it was never supposed to. It needs the crime watch/war dec side, or suicide ganking, to actually use. The only 'fix' is being able to buy temporary leniency from Concord, which is.... oh wait, the war system. But if you wanted more, then introduce Concord agents that sell contracts which could basically give you one crime for free, but you'd need to make them expensive enough to prevent abuse, which would kinda mitigate the whole point.



Basically, bounties are kinda a moot point in Eve, especially in high sec. Removing the system and replacing it with a proper mercenary system is the best fix.



It's a bad idea. It's very poorly thought out, and would be way too much of a hassle to use. And CSM are bad for even posting in this thread anything other than lolno.

The bounty system doesn't work by itself in High sec. It wasn't supposed to. Thank Concord for that. You can only use it in HS via war decs or ganks. That is the cost of 'security.' The only way to fix it would be to pay Concord to look the other way, but the war system already exists. A possible work around would be Concord agents that sell temporary 'licenses to kill' of sorts, but you'd have to be REALLY careful about those, probably make them kinda costly to prevent abuse, and that kinda mitigates their whole point.

Again, Bounties in Eve are kinda a moot point. No one really cares, and High sec, the only place which may care a little, has mechanics in place which make bounties completely useless. The best fix would be to toss the whole system and introduce a proper mercenary system.



Better?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Boba Mereel
Doomheim
#64 - 2015-07-27 23:26:47 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Boba Mereel wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
-1


"Bad idea, bad execution, bad CSM for even thinking about it."


"Bounty system doesn't work by itself in high sec, it was never supposed to."

"It needs the crime watch/war dec side, or suicide ganking, to actually use."

"Basically, bounties are kinda a moot point in Eve, especially in high sec. Removing the system and replacing it with a proper mercenary system is the best fix."


Can you explain the reasoning behind this? Please do, indulge me.



I thought I explained myself pretty well. So let me try again:


Kenrailae wrote:
-1


Bad idea, bad execution, bad CSM for even thinking about it.


Bounty system doesn't work by itself in high sec, it was never supposed to. It needs the crime watch/war dec side, or suicide ganking, to actually use. The only 'fix' is being able to buy temporary leniency from Concord, which is.... oh wait, the war system. But if you wanted more, then introduce Concord agents that sell contracts which could basically give you one crime for free, but you'd need to make them expensive enough to prevent abuse, which would kinda mitigate the whole point.



Basically, bounties are kinda a moot point in Eve, especially in high sec. Removing the system and replacing it with a proper mercenary system is the best fix.



It's a bad idea. It's very poorly thought out, and would be way too much of a hassle to use. And CSM are bad for even posting in this thread anything other than lolno.

The bounty system doesn't work by itself in High sec. It wasn't supposed to. Thank Concord for that. You can only use it in HS via war decs or ganks. That is the cost of 'security.' The only way to fix it would be to pay Concord to look the other way, but the war system already exists. A possible work around would be Concord agents that sell temporary 'licenses to kill' of sorts, but you'd have to be REALLY careful about those, probably make them kinda costly to prevent abuse, and that kinda mitigates their whole point.

Again, Bounties in Eve are kinda a moot point. No one really cares, and High sec, the only place which may care a little, has mechanics in place which make bounties completely useless. The best fix would be to toss the whole system and introduce a proper mercenary system.



Better?


For no one to really care about bounty hunting, this thread sure has gotten a lot of views and post. There is no hard evidence to support your stance, and insulting a CSM for no good reason is on the verge of breaking rules 4,5, and 23.
Sigras
Conglomo
#65 - 2015-07-27 23:39:53 UTC
This system is far too complicated and requires too many rules for edge cases. Consider an easier alternative that was actually mentioned in the dev blog from 2012... Private Bounties!

Imagine if you could choose which hunter you wanted to hire to bring your vengeance to your enemy. This would remove the fear that someone claims their own bounties as they would have to get incredibly lucky for you to hire them to take out one of their own alts. It would also prevent hunters from collaborating with their targets as hunters repeatedly doing this would gain a reputation and it would be harder and harder to track down work.

I even envisioned a system like this before the bounty revamp was announced back in 2012

Imagine the possibilities:

This would allow you to formally hire mercenaries and not have to hope they come through for you; they could be paid with a results driven fee

This would allow you to provide incentive to your alliance mates to go PvPing or gate camping by placing bounties on the heads of the pilots who are harassing you.

This would allow pilots to actually make a name for themselves as a Bounty Hunter and market themselves to have people send private bounty contracts their way.

all of these bounties could pay out 100% for damage instead of just 20% and you still wouldnt have the fear of exploits because only the people you chose could claim the bounty.

When someone wants to put a bounty on someone else's head, they go to the bounty office and are given a list of the top Bounty Hunters in their region, or they can choose the top Bounty Hunters from all regions and find one who they think will get the job done. You would be given metrics like total isk value destroyed, success to failure ratio, and last 10 ships destroyed for bounty (battleclinic could also be used for this but not everyone knows about that or posts on battleclinic).

Thoughts?
Boba Mereel
Doomheim
#66 - 2015-07-27 23:45:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Boba Mereel
Sigras wrote:
This system is far too complicated and requires too many rules for edge cases. Consider an easier alternative that was actually mentioned in the dev blog from 2012... Private Bounties!

Imagine if you could choose which hunter you wanted to hire to bring your vengeance to your enemy. This would remove the fear that someone claims their own bounties as they would have to get incredibly lucky for you to hire them to take out one of their own alts. It would also prevent hunters from collaborating with their targets as hunters repeatedly doing this would gain a reputation and it would be harder and harder to track down work.

I even envisioned a system like this before the bounty revamp was announced back in 2012

Imagine the possibilities:

This would allow you to formally hire mercenaries and not have to hope they come through for you; they could be paid with a results driven fee

This would allow you to provide incentive to your alliance mates to go PvPing or gate camping by placing bounties on the heads of the pilots who are harassing you.

This would allow pilots to actually make a name for themselves as a Bounty Hunter and market themselves to have people send private bounty contracts their way.

all of these bounties could pay out 100% for damage instead of just 20% and you still wouldnt have the fear of exploits because only the people you chose could claim the bounty.

When someone wants to put a bounty on someone else's head, they go to the bounty office and are given a list of the top Bounty Hunters in their region, or they can choose the top Bounty Hunters from all regions and find one who they think will get the job done. You would be given metrics like total isk value destroyed, success to failure ratio, and last 10 ships destroyed for bounty (battleclinic could also be used for this but not everyone knows about that or posts on battleclinic).

Thoughts?


That is a great idea in the event that this new new system proves to be impossible to make. Altough I recommend having systems in place to prevent a bounty hunter for telling his buddy that's a pirate that he is hunting him down and they could split the payout. There's still a possibility that the bounty hunter could be friends with the target, the issuer may accidently over-look his contacts list and miss that fact.
Sigras
Conglomo
#67 - 2015-07-28 00:35:30 UTC
That is possible, but the odds of that are far less likely... Also would you as a customer ever hire that bounty hunter again?

I imagine entire parallel websites dedicated to rating bounty hunters and finding hunters who wont collaborate with their targets no matter what.

The best part about leaving it in the player's hands is that it is self regulating.
Banana1x
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2015-07-28 00:54:55 UTC
Sigras wrote:
This system is far too complicated and requires too many rules for edge cases. Consider an easier alternative that was actually mentioned in the dev blog from 2012... Private Bounties!

Imagine if you could choose which hunter you wanted to hire to bring your vengeance to your enemy. This would remove the fear that someone claims their own bounties as they would have to get incredibly lucky for you to hire them to take out one of their own alts. It would also prevent hunters from collaborating with their targets as hunters repeatedly doing this would gain a reputation and it would be harder and harder to track down work.

I even envisioned a system like this before the bounty revamp was announced back in 2012

Imagine the possibilities:

This would allow you to formally hire mercenaries and not have to hope they come through for you; they could be paid with a results driven fee

This would allow you to provide incentive to your alliance mates to go PvPing or gate camping by placing bounties on the heads of the pilots who are harassing you.

This would allow pilots to actually make a name for themselves as a Bounty Hunter and market themselves to have people send private bounty contracts their way.

all of these bounties could pay out 100% for damage instead of just 20% and you still wouldnt have the fear of exploits because only the people you chose could claim the bounty.

When someone wants to put a bounty on someone else's head, they go to the bounty office and are given a list of the top Bounty Hunters in their region, or they can choose the top Bounty Hunters from all regions and find one who they think will get the job done. You would be given metrics like total isk value destroyed, success to failure ratio, and last 10 ships destroyed for bounty (battleclinic could also be used for this but not everyone knows about that or posts on battleclinic).

Thoughts?


I don't like this idea as it narrows down the bounty hunters to an exclusive list.

I think when getting a bounty contract, you should be given up to 5 targets at a time. Other bounty hunters may also be given the same targets. So if you have a bounty on your head, there may be several bounty hunters working alone or together to hunt you down.

I'd much rather game mechanics where people could opt in to participate (rather than be selected by others) and could be accessible to newer players (if they gang up with other players).
Sigras
Conglomo
#69 - 2015-07-28 01:05:33 UTC
then what's to stop me from collaborating with my target and splitting the bounty? I also like content that new players can jump right into, but:

1. I dont think bounty hunting is the kind of thing that 1 day noobs should be doing
2. I imagine that there would be bounty hunting corps like Mercenary Coalition that the new players could join to get into this content.
3. I would rather have a good, water tight system that is inaccessible to new players than a crappy one that anyone can take part in (which is essentially what we have now)
Banana1x
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2015-07-28 01:34:03 UTC
Sigras wrote:
then what's to stop me from collaborating with my target and splitting the bounty? I also like content that new players can jump right into, but:

Bounty is paid out on 20% damage done. Exactly as it is now.

Sigras wrote:

1. I dont think bounty hunting is the kind of thing that 1 day noobs should be doing

Why not? A new player could be an effective tackle ship in a small gang of bounty hunters.

Sigras wrote:

2. I imagine that there would be bounty hunting corps like Mercenary Coalition that the new players could join to get into this content.

You can do this right now. Just get someone to pay you to wardec someone else.

Sigras wrote:

3. I would rather have a good, water tight system that is inaccessible to new players than a crappy one that anyone can take part in (which is essentially what we have now)

I don't think what you've described is water tight. It's exclusionary and offers no real difference over the wardec mechanic.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#71 - 2015-07-28 01:45:51 UTC
Do yourself a favor and pretend like most of us that the bounty system doesnt exist. The system is so flawed it cannot be fixed. There is so much ISK tied up in the system that changes cannot be made.

It is a dead topic out of the gate. let it go.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#72 - 2015-07-28 01:59:12 UTC
Sigras wrote:
then what's to stop me from collaborating with my target and splitting the bounty? I also like content that new players can jump right into, but:

1. I dont think bounty hunting is the kind of thing that 1 day noobs should be doing
2. I imagine that there would be bounty hunting corps like Mercenary Coalition that the new players could join to get into this content.
3. I would rather have a good, water tight system that is inaccessible to new players than a crappy one that anyone can take part in (which is essentially what we have now)


You could split it, but depending how much you enjoy the hunt and want the ISK, you won't. I've had merc corps offer to split the fee they charged to evict my corp from a system with me. But it's by far the exception.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Boba Mereel
Doomheim
#73 - 2015-07-28 02:07:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Boba Mereel
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Do yourself a favor and pretend like most of us that the bounty system doesnt exist. The system is so flawed it cannot be fixed. There is so much ISK tied up in the system that changes cannot be made.

It is a dead topic out of the gate. let it go.


It can and will eventually be fixed, no mechanic in this game is "dead" and worth ignoring. The ISK tied to the current system, as CSM Chance Ravinne stated, would be refunded.
TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#74 - 2015-07-28 02:17:20 UTC
personally i would prioritize a buff mercenaries. what makes bounty hunting special though is the hunt, which intrigues me. i really hope 'the hunt' will be emphasized if bounty hunting ends up being buffed first.
Boba Mereel
Doomheim
#75 - 2015-07-28 02:19:43 UTC
TheExtruder wrote:
personally i would prioritize a buff mercenaries. what makes bounty hunting special though is the hunt, which intrigues me. i really hope 'the hunt' will be emphasized if bounty hunting ends up being buffed first.


That's exactly what I hope this system would create. That heart-pounding, nailbiting, racing feel to tracking a target down to kill them before any other bounty hunter can.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2015-07-28 03:19:43 UTC
Boba Mereel wrote:

For no one to really care about bounty hunting, this thread sure has gotten a lot of views and post. There is no hard evidence to support your stance, and insulting a CSM for no good reason is on the verge of breaking rules 4,5, and 23.



You sure are stretching alot of things to fit your purpose. First, it's FAR and away from an insult to say bad CSM. That is not in anyway a violation of any rule. Nice try. Now if I were to call them a bunch of dipsh**ts and ****tards, those are insults, but I didn't.

Second, there is ALOT of hard evidence to support my stance.

Here's a few:

The bounty system does NOT work. Factual. It was also NOT supposed to be a free for all shoot anyone with a bounty in High sec. Factual. The war system was designed to allow people to shoot others in high sec and not get concordokkened. Since it does not work, and does not grant freedom to shoot whoever has a bounty, it is also factual that it requires war decs, or ganks, or playing with aggression mechanics and alot of stupid to make work. Factual.

The war system is paying Concord to look the other way so you can shoot someone for a week. Fact.

Your thread's whopping 590 views is nothing. A mere glance in the life and death of Eve F&I threads. Fact. Of those, several are one CSM who IDK how he even got elected, and who's ideas on the subject are just as bad as the idea in OP.

Most people view bounties as a laugh point, a 'how many people did I p*** off' thing. There is not much in the way of seriousness to them, except for when they get high, then it's the pilots who have them who care, to see how high they can get their bounty.

Most Low sec and Null sec players I've interacted with over the past 6 ish years follow this mentality, and only care about losing a bounty, not getting one. The Bounty system does not work, and cannot work along side Concord. Concord/Factin Police 'protecting' high sec makes it impossible to chase bounties without kill rights, which are a war/crime watch mechanic. See, the problem with all this is I can put a bounty on anyone at any time, for anything. So because some random put a bounty on me, now I'm showing up on your agents list? Even if I have a 5 standing or more with that agent? See how broken and unusable that is?

And one more thing: Don't take a like or two here or there as 'support.' Remember we don't have a dislike button.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#77 - 2015-07-28 03:33:37 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Boba Mereel wrote:

For no one to really care about bounty hunting, this thread sure has gotten a lot of views and post. There is no hard evidence to support your stance, and insulting a CSM for no good reason is on the verge of breaking rules 4,5, and 23.



You sure are stretching alot of things to fit your purpose. First, it's FAR and away from an insult to say bad CSM. That is not in anyway a violation of any rule. Nice try. Now if I were to call them a bunch of dipsh**ts and ****tards, those are insults, but I didn't.

Second, there is ALOT of hard evidence to support my stance.

Here's a few:

The bounty system does NOT work. Factual. It was also NOT supposed to be a free for all shoot anyone with a bounty in High sec. Factual. The war system was designed to allow people to shoot others in high sec and not get concordokkened. Since it does not work, and does not grant freedom to shoot whoever has a bounty, it is also factual that it requires war decs, or ganks, or playing with aggression mechanics and alot of stupid to make work. Factual.

The war system is paying Concord to look the other way so you can shoot someone for a week. Fact.

Your thread's whopping 590 views is nothing. A mere glance in the life and death of Eve F&I threads. Fact. Of those, several are one CSM who IDK how he even got elected, and who's ideas on the subject are just as bad as the idea in OP.

Most people view bounties as a laugh point, a 'how many people did I p*** off' thing. There is not much in the way of seriousness to them, except for when they get high, then it's the pilots who have them who care, to see how high they can get their bounty.

Most Low sec and Null sec players I've interacted with over the past 6 ish years follow this mentality, and only care about losing a bounty, not getting one. The Bounty system does not work, and cannot work along side Concord. Concord/Factin Police 'protecting' high sec makes it impossible to chase bounties without kill rights, which are a war/crime watch mechanic. See, the problem with all this is I can put a bounty on anyone at any time, for anything. So because some random put a bounty on me, now I'm showing up on your agents list? Even if I have a 5 standing or more with that agent? See how broken and unusable that is?

And one more thing: Don't take a like or two here or there as 'support.' Remember we don't have a dislike button.


You stated one fact then trailed off into your opinion, which hey, you have the right to do.

I'd imagine anyone with an understanding of popularity contests, politics, and social media could easily understand how I could be elected, and elected with a very healthy share of votes. But that's woefully off topic!

Everyone know the bounty system is broken. But there are a great deal of people who would like it to be not broken. OP is trying to resolve that issue, and since I'm not the dismissive type of guy, I'd like to see where this can go. It only takes a little fire to get the hype train going. Choo choooooooooo

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2015-07-28 03:35:12 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:

You stated one fact then trailed off into your opinion, which hey, you have the right to do.

I'd imagine anyone with an understanding of popularity contests, politics, and social media could easily understand how I could be elected, and elected with a very healthy share of votes. But that's woefully off topic!

Everyone know the bounty system is broken. But there are a great deal of people who would like it to be not broken. OP is trying to resolve that issue, and since I'm not the dismissive type of guy, I'd like to see where this can go. It only takes a little fire to get the hype train going. Choo choooooooooo



I stated several facts. I suggest re-reading between counting your internet points

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Banana1x
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2015-07-28 04:39:20 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
because some random put a bounty on me, now I'm showing up on your agents list? Even if I have a 5 standing or more with that agent? See how broken and unusable that is?


This is why I think placing bounties on peoples head should be removed. Bounties should be part of the insurance system; hence the more insurance you pay for, the higher the percentage of bounty placed on an aggressor.
Boba Mereel
Doomheim
#80 - 2015-07-28 04:42:04 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Boba Mereel wrote:

For no one to really care about bounty hunting, this thread sure has gotten a lot of views and post. There is no hard evidence to support your stance, and insulting a CSM for no good reason is on the verge of breaking rules 4,5, and 23.



You sure are stretching alot of things to fit your purpose. First, it's FAR and away from an insult to say bad CSM. That is not in anyway a violation of any rule. Nice try. Now if I were to call them a bunch of dipsh**ts and ****tards, those are insults, but I didn't.

Second, there is ALOT of hard evidence to support my stance.

Here's a few:

The bounty system does NOT work. Factual. It was also NOT supposed to be a free for all shoot anyone with a bounty in High sec. Factual. The war system was designed to allow people to shoot others in high sec and not get concordokkened. Since it does not work, and does not grant freedom to shoot whoever has a bounty, it is also factual that it requires war decs, or ganks, or playing with aggression mechanics and alot of stupid to make work. Factual.

The war system is paying Concord to look the other way so you can shoot someone for a week. Fact.

Your thread's whopping 590 views is nothing. A mere glance in the life and death of Eve F&I threads. Fact. Of those, several are one CSM who IDK how he even got elected, and who's ideas on the subject are just as bad as the idea in OP.

Most people view bounties as a laugh point, a 'how many people did I p*** off' thing. There is not much in the way of seriousness to them, except for when they get high, then it's the pilots who have them who care, to see how high they can get their bounty.

Most Low sec and Null sec players I've interacted with over the past 6 ish years follow this mentality, and only care about losing a bounty, not getting one. The Bounty system does not work, and cannot work along side Concord. Concord/Factin Police 'protecting' high sec makes it impossible to chase bounties without kill rights, which are a war/crime watch mechanic. See, the problem with all this is I can put a bounty on anyone at any time, for anything. So because some random put a bounty on me, now I'm showing up on your agents list? Even if I have a 5 standing or more with that agent? See how broken and unusable that is?

And one more thing: Don't take a like or two here or there as 'support.' Remember we don't have a dislike button.


Your negativity is unecessary, counterproductive, and nonconstructive.